Heavy Cargo Quadricycle w/Bafang BBSHD Mid-Mount Motor and rear GrinTech All Axle (reverse) Controller Integration

[Cynthia Priddy]

Integrating the Bafang MidMount Motor with GrinTech All-Axle e-hub motor. Told that the Cycle Analyst can be used to integrate both motors and controllers with the Grin Tech cycle analyst controlling both motors? Anyone with any experience?

Want Mid-motor for power and Grin Tech e-hub motor for reverse function. This is a heavy cargo bike 1000lbs. capacity.

 

[E-HP]

Integrating the Bafang MidMount Motor with GrinTech All-Axle e-hub motor. Told that the Cycle Analyst can be used to integrate both motors and controllers with the Grin Tech cycle analyst controlling both motors? Anyone with any experience?

Want Mid-motor for power and Grin Tech e-hub motor for reverse function. This is a heavy cargo bike 1000lbs. capacity.

It sounds like the two motors will not be used together, but one for forward and the other for reverse. For that, the CA seems to be overkill or not needed (the CA does switch from forward to reverse. A simple switch, directing the throttle signal wire between the two controllers (mid or hub controller) should work for 100th the cost.

PS. The all axle is a direct drive motor. It’s going to create a lot of drag when not powered, and the drag will increase with speed, so not sure that’s the best solution.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Grin has just released firmware for it's Phaserunner/Baserunner controller that offers torque sensing and reverse without a Cycle Analyst.

In addition, Grin offers a trickle setting that provides just enough power to over come any magnet cogging - they call it virtual freewheeling. They also that in most cases, the power recovered from Regen breaking exceeds the power used for the virtual freewheeling so it is not of concern.

 

[E-HP]

Grin has just released firmware for it's Phaserunner/Baserunner controller that offers torque sensing and reverse without a Cycle Analyst.

In addition, Grin offers a trickle setting that provides just enough power to over come any magnet cogging - they call it virtual freewheeling. They also that in most cases, the power recovered from Regen breaking exceeds the power used for the virtual freewheeling so it is not of concern.

Probably necessary to be able to fine tune the virtual freewheeling if it’s a quad, and only one of the 4 wheels is a dd hub motor to keep it from pulling to one side. Maybe I’m not picturing the setup correctly.

 

[neptronix]

Integrating the Bafang MidMount Motor with GrinTech All-Axle e-hub motor. Told that the Cycle Analyst can be used to integrate both motors and controllers with the Grin Tech cycle analyst controlling both motors? Anyone with any experience?

Want Mid-motor for power and Grin Tech e-hub motor for reverse function. This is a heavy cargo bike 1000lbs. capacity.

How big is the hub motor wheel, and is it operated on hilly terrain?

A grin max45 might work as a good single motor solution, it's something like 2500-3500w continuous depending on what size wheel you have it in. If you are not scaling mountains it could work.

Pic of said bike would be helpful

 

[The Toecutter]

Will you be using dual hub motors, or just one? Will the mid drive output its torque to mechanicals that can split the output between two wheels, or will it work like an open differential and dump it all into one wheel? It makes a difference in how the vehicle behaves. It's the difference between say, an early 2000s Audi TT that is advertised as "Quattro" but really doesn't have true AWD and is more like having the front wheels provide thrust unless slip is detected and only then sending power to the rear wheels, and a Subaru WRX that does actually have true AWD and will send power to all 4 wheels and split it as needed.

I'd recommend two hub motors up front each wth its own controller and a single middrive motor sending output to the equivalent of a posi-trac. That will allow power to be sent to all 4 wheels at once. Assuming you want to use more than one hub motor, you'll also need a Cycle Analyst that can accommodate a high-current shunt.

I almost have that setup in my quad build, I'm just missing the mid-drive motor. I have hub motors in each front wheel, and will be installing a Cyclone 6 kW middrive at some point for the rear wheels in order to compliment the twin Grin All-Axle hubmotors. And it will be utterly retarded once I get it to that point.

Once my current build is functional/reliable on a daily basis with all 4 wheels electrically driven, I do want to make a "truck" build with motors wound for much more torque than speed, not meant for more than 20 mph top speed, but torque for days and AWD so that I can haul heavy loads even up steep inclines in snowy weather.

Please show us your setup. We could give you better advice once we know what you have and what you can do with it.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

It sounds like the two motors will not be used together, but one for forward and the other for reverse. For that, the CA seems to be overkill or not needed (the CA does switch from forward to reverse. A simple switch, directing the throttle signal wire between the two controllers (mid or hub controller) should work for 100th the cost.

PS. The all axle is a direct drive motor. It’s going to create a lot of drag when not powered, and the drag will increase with speed, so not sure that’s the best solution.

Ideally they would work together. Left side drive is Mid-Mount Bafang. Right side (rear) is GrinTech All Axle rear hub motor - this enables additive power as needed, provides reverse capability, supplements breaking by regenerative braking feature.

Ideally Controllers are Integrated using the Cycle Analyst to program the integration (may require physical re-wiring of controls/throttles/PAS) - it was suggested to have GrinTech be "master controller" and Bafang be "slave" controlled by GrinTech" controller. Quad can be driven by one person, PAS activates both motors. Vehicle stops, reverse selected on a switch or through the display control (if possible). One battery. If both driver/passenger are pedaling, both systems activated by one PAS. If one driver pedaling, both systems activated by one PAS. When no one pedaling, freewheels do what they do and spin freely. Rear axle is split with a Rear Differential, so wheels, like on a Tricycle or a car, can rotate at different speeds especially helpful when turning to reduce wheel drag.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

How big is the hub motor wheel, and is it operated on hilly terrain?

A grin max45 might work as a good single motor solution, it's something like 2500-3500w continuous depending on what size wheel you have it in. If you are not scaling mountains it could work.

Pic of said bike would be helpful

All wheels 20" x 2.25-2.5" tires. The GrinMax45 will work - it just needs to be a freewheeling, direct drive hub motor.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

Will you be using dual hub motors, or just one? Will the mid drive output its torque to mechanicals that can split the output between two wheels, or will it work like an open differential and dump it all into one wheel? It makes a difference in how the vehicle behaves. It's the difference between say, an early 2000s Audi TT that is advertised as "Quattro" but really doesn't have true AWD and is more like having the front wheels provide thrust unless slip is detected and only then sending power to the rear wheels, and a Subaru WRX that does actually have true AWD and will send power to all 4 wheels and split it as needed.

I'd recommend two hub motors up front each wth its own controller and a single middrive motor sending output to the equivalent of a posi-trac. That will allow power to be sent to all 4 wheels at once. Assuming you want to use more than one hub motor, you'll also need a Cycle Analyst that can accommodate a high-current shunt.

I almost have that setup in my quad build, I'm just missing the mid-drive motor. I have hub motors in each front wheel, and will be installing a Cyclone 6 kW middrive at some point for the rear wheels in order to compliment the twin Grin All-Axle hubmotors. And it will be utterly retarded once I get it to that point.

Once my current build is functional/reliable on a daily basis with all 4 wheels electrically driven, I do want to make a "truck" build with motors wound for much more torque than speed, not meant for more than 20 mph top speed, but torque for days and AWD so that I can haul heavy loads even up steep inclines in snowy weather.

Please show us your setup. We could give you better advice once we know what you have and what you can do with it.

Will you be using dual hub motors, or just one? Will the mid drive output its torque to mechanicals that can split the output between two wheels, or will it work like an open differential and dump it all into one wheel? It makes a difference in how the vehicle behaves. It's the difference between say, an early 2000s Audi TT that is advertised as "Quattro" but really doesn't have true AWD and is more like having the front wheels provide thrust unless slip is detected and only then sending power to the rear wheels, and a Subaru WRX that does actually have true AWD and will send power to all 4 wheels and split it as needed.

I'd recommend two hub motors up front each wth its own controller and a single middrive motor sending output to the equivalent of a posi-trac. That will allow power to be sent to all 4 wheels at once. Assuming you want to use more than one hub motor, you'll also need a Cycle Analyst that can accommodate a high-current shunt.

I almost have that setup in my quad build, I'm just missing the mid-drive motor. I have hub motors in each front wheel, and will be installing a Cyclone 6 kW middrive at some point for the rear wheels in order to compliment the twin Grin All-Axle hubmotors. And it will be utterly retarded once I get it to that point.

Once my current build is functional/reliable on a daily basis with all 4 wheels electrically driven, I do want to make a "truck" build with motors wound for much more torque than speed, not meant for more than 20 mph top speed, but torque for days and AWD so that I can haul heavy loads even up steep inclines in snowy weather.

Please show us your setup. We could give you better advice once we know what you have and what you can do with it.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

How big is the hub motor wheel, and is it operated on hilly terrain?

A grin max45 might work as a good single motor solution, it's something like 2500-3500w continuous depending on what size wheel you have it in. If you are not scaling mountains it could work.

Pic of said bike would be helpful

20" x 2.25-2.50" Wheels and Tires. I was told the Grin Max45 Will work. Mostly flat terrain, but needs to be able to handle short, moderate hills when necessary (inner city terrain - not San Francisco-but maybe?).

 

[E-HP]

View attachment 389605

What is the need for a differential based on what you’ve described, and how would the parking brake keep the wheels from rotating?

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

What is the need for a differential based on what you’ve described, and how would the parking brake keep the wheels from rotating?

Differential is simply for turning so wheel on outside can spin faster than wheel on inside when turning and cornering like a car.
Parking brake - idea was to somehow add that to the rotor/axle to keep from moving. Prefer integrated brake handle parking brakes but don't know how strong these are - they seem easy to disengage.

 

[neptronix]

20" x 2.25-2.50" Wheels and Tires. I was told the Grin Max45 Will work. Mostly flat terrain, but needs to be able to handle short, moderate hills when necessary (inner city terrain - not San Francisco-but maybe?).

If your grades don't exceed 2.5%, then you're good.
Here's a case where you're at ~90% weight..



If you use ferrofluid, your maximum continuous grade is 4.5%.

You can thank the 20" wheel for this ( 20" x 2.5" is more like 21" )

At 1000lbs, your problem is going to be the strength of bicycle components.
Grin all axle is a weight optimized motor.

You might want a 50mm wide QS motor instead, since it is basically a motorcycle component that's adapted to fit on bikes.

 

[E-HP]

Differential is simply for turning so wheel on outside can spin faster than wheel on inside when turning and cornering like a car.
Parking brake - idea was to somehow add that to the rotor/axle to keep from moving. Prefer integrated brake handle parking brakes but don't know how strong these are - they seem easy to disengage.

So both wheels don’t freewheel already? I’m no seeing how the brake works if both wheels freewheel.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

So both wheels don’t freewheel already? I’m no seeing how the brake works if both wheels freewheel.

Rear wheels spin freely (are freewheels) when not engaged, just like a standard bike with cassette and freewheel. This may not make sense, but the idea was to add a rotor and brake to the differential to allow a mechanical parking brake to fix the differential...but I guess what you are saying is that the axles will still move so thats not going to work.

The main focus of this post is to find if anyone has solved for the integration of the Bafang Mid-Motor and the Rear Right Hub Grin Tech motor...The Grin Tech will go in reverse. The Bafang provides the majority of power and is installed through the bottom bracket. Trying to find out if one controller/Cycle Analyst w/Phaserunner from Grin Tech can provide central control over both motors so that the PAS and power and torque between two motors is synched, and when stopped, the quad can be reversed using the Grin Tech Hub motor for reverse.

There will be four brakes on all four wheels; this heavy of a vehicle needs to have a parking brake. Maybe it would work mounted to the differential, but it sounds like not. There are other parking brake solutions out there.

 

[hillslayer@]

I have a direct drive hub and a mid drive on a couple bikes. You you don't need a way to sync the motors . Main thing is picking a chainring for the mid drive that will match the top speed you want. Just use separate controllers for each motor. I only use the mid drive pedal assist and throttle only on the hub .

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

I have a direct drive hub and a mid drive on a couple bikes. You you don't need a way to sync the motors . Main thing is picking a chainring for the mid drive that will match the top speed you want. Just use separate controllers for each motor. I only use the mid drive pedal assist and throttle only on the hub .

That is certainly one option.

This is a quad with TWo drivetrains - a pedaler/steerer on the left and a pedaler on the right. The Hub motor is on the Rear right drive side (allows for reverse and provides supplemental power) and the Mid-Mount motor is on the left. But we are trying to have one PAS where both engines are working together-the PAS and Torque working together - so PAS/torque from one side or both sides is synchronized.

 

[hillslayer@]

That's going to be tricky with to entirely different motors. You may want to look at the rear of some of these trike's that use a single hub hooked to a differential that powers both wheels. Then you could just run the mid drive into that.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

That's going to be tricky with to entirely different motors. You may want to look at the rear of some of these trike's that use a single hub hooked to a differential that powers both wheels. Then you could just run the mid drive into that.

That is an option as well. It appears from researching Grin Tech that you can use the Phaserunner and Cycle Analyst with a Splitter to connect to two controllers. We need a way to achieve reverse - so that is the main reason to have the Grin Tech All-Axle or Max45 hub motor.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

If your grades don't exceed 2.5%, then you're good.
Here's a case where you're at ~90% weight..

View attachment 389633

If you use ferrofluid, your maximum continuous grade is 4.5%.

You can thank the 20" wheel for this ( 20" x 2.5" is more like 21" )

At 1000lbs, your problem is going to be the strength of bicycle components.
Grin all axle is a weight optimized motor.

You might want a 50mm wide QS motor instead, since it is basically a motorcycle component that's adapted to fit on bikes.

Thank you for the recommendation and simulator info. I will check on the motor.

 

[neptronix]

The problem with your plan is that you have a less powerful motor being dragged by a more powerful motor, whereas 1 motor could perform both functions.

It would be a lot less complex to use a single motor, that's why i bring it up first. it's a lot less complex.

 

[Cynthia Priddy]

The problem with your plan is that you have a less powerful motor being dragged by a more powerful motor, whereas 1 motor could perform both functions.

It would be a lot less complex to use a single motor, that's why i bring it up first. it's a lot less complex.

Thank you. The GrinTech can be setup so low power is activated continuously to act as an "Electric Freewheel" to reduce drag. Then it can help with PAS assist when needed for hills, etc. Ideally, we would use one motor to do it all including reverse - but this is being done piecemeal as a DIY. The electronics/wire connection is pretty simple - connect the Grin Tech controller to the existing mid motor setup. The main motor is the Mid Motor and the GrinTech Hub motor is the supplemental power and reverse....I am unable to find a Mid-Mount Motor that can handle the weight and has reverse function. Adding a reverse function via a mechanical servo or mini motor like for a large and heavy Motorcycle - these are super expensive...that is the the other thing, this is a bare budget build.

 

[neptronix]

In your idea, that electric freewheel is costing you electricity ( 100W-150W? ) as you're using a less efficient and less powerful motor for forward propulsion.

With 1000lbs you need either motorcycle brakes or you need a freakin' large DD motor to do regen, otherwise down said hill you are going to have a very bad time since your vehicle could get more than 20 times heavier than a bicycle.

A big DD can do the forward driving and regenerative braking adequately for this weight of bike. The only reason is because you have a 20 inch wheel.
A BBSHD can only do half of one of those functions.

Notice in my simlulator scenario, we are pulling 2400w continuous... 4.5% is gonna be a lot more and you'll melt that BBSHD quick.. but the DD hub is happy to do it, provided you fill it with statorade.

If you are to add a mid drive, it should be a secondary motor only for hills above 4.5% grade continuous. Otherwise a geared hub motor would be a better choice.

Here is what a 50mm hub motor and 4kg/9lb geared hub motor look like in combination.. continuous climbing capacity is increased by ~66%.



But do you even need this climbing capacity? if you don't, a single hub motor would work super well for you, be more efficient, powerful, and less expensive upfront as well as down the road ( no shredded bike drivetrain components to replace due to the high wattage and load on a drivetrain designed to support leg power )