Help a Noob Build From Scratch

[mikecLA]

I rented an Izip Metro twice with a goal in mind of purchasing either that or the Ultra, but it feel short in two areas -- top end speed (which I understand is limited due to Federal Regs) & distance. The Metro was geared too low. I could barely pedal assist the bike at top end speed, or go faster than the motor alone would go.

I have no idea how many miles I rode the thing, but took it out for what I would typically use it for, cruising PCH along the beach, making a few leisurely stops, etc... and was able to get about 3 hours of use out of it. Had to return it before the day rental expired unless I wanted to pedal only. This lead me to believe that if I wanted another 5-10 mph top end and increased range at lower speeds, I would have to go the DIY route.

Once I build, the typical use is going to include:
1) Commuting 12 miles each way to work (I can recharge at the office). For this, I would want to run close to max speed the entire trip with a little bit of help from my legs, until I am in shape to do more.
2) Leisurely rides along the beach, would probably want to be able to do 40-50 miles in a day, would probably not top 15-20 mph.
3) Ability to tow a trailer with a 80-100lb load 15 mile round trip, no ability to recharge in between.
4) I do not want to go more than 28-30mph and draw attention from the LAPD, but it's perfectly fine if the bike has the capability to do so as a side effect of increasing motor/battery capability to gain range.
5) There would be one hill to overcome (access to the bike Path at the Santa Monica Pier for those that are familiar with the area), maybe a few smaller ones elsewhere, but mostly flat.
6) I'm over 90% sure I need/want rear hub.

I have not purchased anything yet. Not even the bike, since I want a bike suitable for the build, and as stealth (and quite) as possible.

On the bike, I'm undecided between a Beach Cruiser / Townie style or something more commuter looking. Would like recommendations suitable for a build that would be as easy as possible for a newbie. Started looking at BMC / Crystalyte for motors and would definitely go with the best Li battery possible. The Tube battery on ampedbikes.com looks pretty cool, but it's 36v 12aH, and not sure if it would be sufficient enough for my requirements.

Not concerned about budget, could be anywhere from 1K to 3K or more, plus the bike (I'm rationalizing this by offsetting cost of driving to the office 4 days / week).

So starting from scratch, including the bike, what would you recommend?

 

[mikecLA]

Just to clarify #3 -- The trailer would be one of those Burley's rated to hold 100lbs (either my dog or a bunch of beach stuff).

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you have a reasonable handle on what you want.
for stealth there are 2 schools of thought: Hard to see its electric, or hard to hear it's electric. Unfortunatly, the quiet motors are the Direct drive hub motors, which are larger than the geared hub motors.

Generaly you want 35 watts of battery capacity per Mile you travel at 20mph. That will include your reserve capacity. That means if you want to go 15 miles at 20mph, no pedaling, plan on a 525 watt battery. Thats roughly a 36 volt 15AH battery, or a 48 volt 10AH battery

30mph takes some work, but pushing up near 30 is fairly easy. A motor like a 9 Continents 2807 (A.K.A. a 9X7) will do 25-27mph at 48 volts

So a 48volt, 10AH battery and a 9continents motor (or clone) would be a good starting point.
The motor is less important. Pick a good battery. It should haul a trailer fine

As for the bike, you want something solidly built, with 135mm spacing on the rear (basicly standard for multi speed bikes) Many beach cruisers are 1 speed or 3 speed internal, they use a narrower frame.

 

[mikecLA]

I'm thinking an Electra 21D Townie for the bike, looks comfortable and gearing does not look internal:
http://helenscycles.com/product/12electra-townie-original-21d-158617-1.htm

 

[dogman dan]

Townies been a good choice for many. They like pedal forward, and the frame has space for a huge battery. Which is never all that stealthy, there's the rub. Main thing is most places with the cops is don't ride like an ass. They tend to overlook up to 30 mph, provided you appear to be pedaling, and aren't running the wrong way up the road.

Like many, you seem to want a lot. Not that you want too much speed or too much range. But it gets a bit sticky to build a bike that's good for your fast commute, and still be good at that slow heavy haul to the beach. You can aim for halfway between, but my experience has been that doing that leaves you not so great for either use. If you build for a 20 mph commute, then you'd have a better bike for the beach haul.

My thoughts, you should aim for a relatively fast commute first. You want to get there fast, especially in the am. Then consider building a second bike, or a pusher trailer for the beach run.


For the fast commute, I'd recomend my favorite motor. A 9 continent or 9c clone in 2807 winding. It will go 27 mph on a 48v 15 ah pingbattery. At that speed you'll have about 19-20 miles of range. About 35 miles is the max range, at 15-18 mph. Same thing I have on my commuter. Budget is about $1200, but you can do it cheaper if you must. Plus the bike cost. More battery can be carried for the really long weekend trips, but don't go much bigger for the daily commute.
Lots of similar motors are out there, ebay, etc. One of the cheaper ones is the muxus direct drive kit from emissions free.

This same setup can haul a trailer to the beach, but it won't do it well. You'll have to watch out for overheating pulling a heavy trailer. But no problems if the trailer and cargo only weighs 50 pounds. A second motor and battery turning the trailer into a pusher can be one way to fix it.

A second bike with load carrying capability might be your eventual solution too. Longtails are great, once you put a very powerful but slower motor on them. Then you can load up more and still climb a hill without overheating so much.

 

[dogman dan]

BTW, chances are that with the townie, or nearly any other bike, you will want to get a bigger chainring on it so you can pedal somewhat normaly at that 27 mph.

48 tooth in the front, and get a hold of an 11 tooth screw on freewheel for the back. That will do the trick. Big road bike 52 tooth cranks seldom fit.

 

[mikecLA]

BTW, chances are that with the townie, or nearly any other bike, you will want to get a bigger chainring on it so you can pedal somewhat normaly at that 27 mph.

48 tooth in the front, and get a hold of an 11 tooth screw on freewheel for the back. That will do the trick. Big road bike 52 tooth cranks seldom fit.

That was the exact problem with the Izip Metro I tested. You would think the bike would be designed so that you can pedal along with it or faster at the top end, but I guess they want you to spend 5K for an express. Unfortunately, changing the gearing requires a special tool the shop did not have. That's what started me on the DIY path. For $2600 - 5K I think I can do better on my own.

 

[mikecLA]

Just wondering, would there be a disadvantage to going with something that's overkill, like the 2000 Watt Thunderbolt Kit here: http://hi-powercycles.com/product.sc?productId=61 on a Townie:

Specs:
2000W System: 34 MPH (52V High Performance Li-NMC)
*27 Mile Range, battery weight: 7.8 lbs, Motor Weight: 8.9 lbs (Geared) or 15.9 lbs (Gearless)

This should have enough power to pull a trailer in the 15mph range and when I did not have it attached, riding at 15-20 along the beach should get me better than a 27 mile range, correct?

Wouldn't that keep me within legal limits, give me longer range than a pre-built bike like the Izip, and still have the extra power on tap (at the sacrifice of a lower range) if I wanted it? Am I missing something obvious (other than $$$)?

 

[Drunkskunk]

Those motors look to be BMC geared motors, and Crystalyte HS35XX series motors. The ratings they are giving you, I.E. 2000w system, are based on peak power. Reputable dealers usualy rate on nominal power. Essentualy, those are 500 watt motors with controllers that allow a peak of 2000 watts.

Some Reputable dealers Are:
http://www.Ebikes.ca
http://www.E-bikekit.com
http://www.emissions-free.com

Nothing wrong with the Crystalyte HS series motor, but it's over kill, overly heavy, and overly expensive. Nothing wrong with that either, but bigger motors need bigger batteries and bigger controllers, and put more stress on a bike so you need bigger brakes, beefier frames, better rims, ect. There is always a more powerfull setup. it can quickly escalate into a motorcycle

 

[Goathead]

If you haven't already . . .

may I suggest that you find a large hill and a cheap speedometer . . .

and get going to 30 MPH . . .

so you're certain that's really something you want to do on a bicycle . . . ?

 

[wesnewell]

You need to read the spec closely. That 27 mile range is at 18-20mph with a 170lb rider. And you can bet to get 27 miles you'll need to go 18mph or less. It will probably get you 12 miles at 30mph, but it would be cutting it close. HPC rates their systems on peak power, which is not the way most people rate theirs. Rated like theirs, ny bike would be a 4000W system when it's really just a 1000W motor with a 1500W controller. Total cost of mine, including bike was under $800 and it's faster with twice the range of theirs. Forget pedaling at 30 mph unless you go to a huge chain drive (52T) and small cog rear (11T) and then you'd have to pedal like a chipmunk. At 15mph I'd guess my range would be close to 70 miles. I do a 70 mile week for exercise on one charge and end up with 20% battery charge left when I re-charge. You can buy the same kit I have with the stock controller that will do over 30mph For under $280 shipped from CA. So be careful what you buy. You don't have to spend a fortune to get performance.

 

[mark5]

Just wondering, would there be a disadvantage to going with something that's overkill, like the 2000 Watt Thunderbolt Kit here: http://hi-powercycles.com/product.sc?productId=61 on a Townie:

Hi-powercycles is close by you but very expensive. Any of the three trusted dealers Drunkskunk listed or the inexpensive motor kit wesnewell mentioned should be good to buy from.

 

[mikecLA]

Thanks, I was missing the obvious -- the motor in the kit is nothing special.

But just to make sure, If I go with a 1000 Watt 48V setup (which can do 30MPH) but ride mostly at 20MPH, I'm going to get better range than if I were to buy 500 Watt 36V and top it out at 20mph, correct? That would still give extra power when I wanted it (at the expense of a shorter range).

 

[mikecLA]

If you haven't already . . .

may I suggest that you find a large hill and a cheap speedometer . . .

and get going to 30 MPH . . .

so you're certain that's really something you want to do on a bicycle . . . ?

I definitely do not fell comfortable going 30 downhill, flat maybe. I more or less want to stay 20-25 but was thinking that over-specking would give me a longer range at slower speeds than getting something that tops out at 20MPH.

 

[wesnewell]

But just to make sure, If I go with a 1000 Watt 48V setup (which can do 30MPH) but ride mostly at 20MPH, I'm going to get better range than if I were to buy 500 Watt 36V and top it out at 20mph, correct? That would still give extra power when I wanted it (at the expense of a shorter range).

It gets complicated by many factors, but basically if you ride the same speed, both will consume about the same amount of energy. But a 10ah 48V battery has 33% more energy than a 10ah 36V battery, so you'll get ~33% more range with the 48V battery in this case. Battery energy is determined by amp hour (AH) times nominal voltage, so the 36V 10ah battery has 360watt hours (Wh), while the 48V 10ah battery has 480wh.

 

[wesnewell]

I'll be 66 in a few days, but when i was considerably younger I did well over 100mph on a CB 450 motorcycle by laying prone on it. I've done over 40 on bike and it was scary to me. I'm comfortable with 30-35mph now. More comfortable at 25 though.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Going 20mph takes 250-300 watts of power on flat ground. Basicly regardless of what motor you use. Geared or Direct drive, 350W mini motor to Huge multi thousand watt behemoth. It makes very little diffrence. Wearing baggy shirts or spandex will have a greater effect.

The diffrence comes on acceleration, and on hills. the bigger, more powerfull motors can USE more power, and give better performance.


We may be confusing you with Amps, Volts, and Watts. Motors use Watts.

1 watt is 1 volt X 1 amp. So 10 volts at 10 amps is 100 watts. 100 volts at 1 amp is also 100 watts.

 

[Goathead]

If we bring the battery down to dollar terms -- 36V at 20Ah costs about the same from Ping as 48V at 15Ah.
How should depth of discharge and number of cycles from a pack factor into the equation . . .?

 

[Samd]

I wouldnt stress about 30mph goathead. Going over it does have conditions like a dry straight surface, a low center of gravity, with no chance of sudden interruption. And good tyres.

But it's a daily event for most ES folk.

Dogman, +1 when it comes to having plenty of teeth on the front sprocket and as few as possible on the rear. The shimano megarange on the Aprilia is worth it's weight. Nothing worse than doing 50kph and your legs can't keep up to add that extra speed...

 

[Goathead]

I break 30MPH most days myself.
It's not so much the speed, it's the bike that it's being done on.

Without knowing a bit more,
"Beach Cruiser" and "30 MPH"
go together like
"Monkey" and "hand gun."

It's entirely possible that nothing will go wrong . . .
. . . but why find out the hard way?

Testing may show that better (fill in the blank) should be part of the budget.

 

[Samd]

Its a logical fallacy to draw the monkey/handgun analogy then say its highly likely that nothing will go wrong. That's hyperbole.

People take cruisers up to speed here often. Why would a bike with a lower center of gravity be more Dangerous?
To be alarmist would be 'Thievery' indeed. It's a 'Culture of fear'. Sorry, couldn't resist the "Retaliation".

MikecLA - here are some high powered cruiser links you might like:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37480#p553058
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=41169
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=41346
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33720
http://www.voltagecycles.com/gallery/
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=36988

If it were me I'd take a simple cruiser with 135mm back dropouts and bolt in a MagicPie or similar. They are a little slower than most at stock, but will happily take 3 kilowatts later on once you get going. Throw out the stock controller, buy a 9 or 12 FET, and overvolt it to 60volts.
http://rev-electricbikekits.com.au/
I think MP Canada has the MP2 at the moment for close to $200. He does lots of cruisers and commuters...
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/e-bike/

 

[Goathead]

What's sold as a "cruiser" here in the states is, too often, designed for the aspirational rider.

Not the top-end guys who think or wish or believe that by buying the carbon-fiber whatsis they really can get to the tour or the olympics,
but the person who thinks or wishes or believes that if they just spring for a low-end (do you have WalMart there?) hundred dollar bike they'll really use it and finally get fit.

But it generally winds up being a rather expensive hanger for the carwash towels after three turns around the block.

A bike like that, built by an indifferent and inexperience stocking clerk, is decidedly in the "monkey with a handgun" realm.

(There are fine bicycles in the cruiser style. There are many more that are just plain POS.)

(Waaaay off topic, but if you're listening to Thievery Corporation, you should try Rob Myers other band -- Fort Knox 5. :wink: )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Knox_Five

 

[dogman dan]

Possibly my most stable at high speed bike in my whole collection is a really cheap beach cruiser. Strong as hell steel frame, with great lateral stiffness. Zero tendency to high speed wobble

Worst brakes in the whole collection though. :lol: Great for going fast, but just don't plan on stopping. I keep meaning to weld on some disk mounts someday, but never do it. I just ride the thing less than 20 mph.

To go fast these are good things to have.

Strong frame, metal type not the issue. You want stiffness side to side.

Good brakes. Even good rim brakes can be enough for 35 mph, but really good disks for any faster is sort of a must.

Longer wheelbases seem to help with the tank slappers.

Full suspension is nice, particularly above 40 mph. A manhole cover at 45 mph is a thrill with no suspension.

 

[wesnewell]

If you've never tried eabs brakes (available on many ebike/scooter controllers, you don't know what your missing. They have many times more braking power than regen braking, and brake to a complete stop, They do use a little your battery power though, but not much.