Help, My Bro-in-law is About to buy a Gas Scooter

[Beagle123]

My brother-in-law want to buy a vespa to commute to work. He's ridden my e-scooter, but wants more power. My scooter only outputs about 600-700 watts and weighs 128 lbs. Obviously, better acceleration would be good. He seems like he's still open to the idea of electric.

I'd like to get y'all opinions on what bikes to suggest to him. Money is not a big issue, he just wants the best bike he can get. He was considering $4000 for a vespa. I told him to wait, and I'd send him an email with suggestions from the ebike world.

I'm thinking of some bad-ass lithium powered scooter that would beat 50cc scooters. What's the best way to go? Please include a link, so I can send it to him.

I have these so far:

3000w e-runner from falcon ev
http://falconev.com/scooters.html

zap zapino scooter
http://www.zapworld.com/electric-vehicles/electric-scooters/zapino-electric-scooter

This motorcycle is the best lead. Might be good in scooter form, and maybe less power and more range:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/acbikes.htm

Clearly a scooter with a good sized lithium pack and a big controller would blow-away the gas scooters. The motorcycle from thunderstruck would beat the 150cc models--they're 12hp.

I'm thinking 4hp would be about perfect (and looks cool).

Any ideas?

 

[Miles]

Vectrix?
http://www.vectrix.com/Portal/3/Language/46/Page/1/Home.aspx

Miles

 

[Malcolm]

Even better Vectrix?
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/14/enter-the-rumormill-vectrix-to-debut-an-electric-superbike/

 

[fechter]

Snoop around over on
http://visforvoltage.org/

There are quite a few user reports on larger electric scooters.

I've ridden one of these:
http://www.electricmotorsport.com/SCOOTERS/Oxygen/OxygenHomePage.htm

Really not bad for the price and very well made. It could possibly be upgraded to lithium after the stock batteries give out.

 

[Storm]

I think your found it youself, the best available for the price to compare to a 50cc. will last longer, probably modable for more power in future, cheaper to run, far far greener... two strokes are so dirty!!!

Vectrix is to bulky IMO.

The new version looks far better than B4, great built in wind deflector too, good headlights.

60v Life 3000watt version onlywaytogo!!

http://falconev.com/E-Runner2.html

 

[vanilla ice]

That super motard AC bike looks cool. The newer four stroke 50's can't be that bad as far as emissions. Is the vespa he is looking at a two stroker?

 

[xyster]

Help, My Bro-in-law is About to buy a Gas Scooter

If he remains refractory to the suggestions here, psychological intervention may be necessary. Abduct said brother in a nondescript van and haul him to the nearest SoCal eco-nazi meeting for gasaholic reprogramming.

 

[jondoh]

how far does he have to go?

what kind of roads? highway? Is speed limit above 40 mph?

maybe a vespa isn't so bad. make sure he tries an e-bike anyway. he might catch the bug.

one of the nice thing about ebikes is that i don't HAVE to go as fast as all the cars. it's a little more relaxing.

If an electric motorcycle is what your brother's looking for, get him to look at the RED HORNET from falconev. ypedal is supposed to test one soon and falconev is saying it will outperform a 100cc motorbike.

 

[Ypedal]

Got the motor.. working on suitable frame..

and torque arms !!!!!!!!

 

[Beagle123]

Thanks guys:

The lepton is too heavy. I'm sure he'd want a lighter, lithium scooter that looks cool like a vespa (no duct tape too, sorry you-know-who).

The vetrix looks awesome. However they weigh 400+ pounds. I'm not sure why they bothered to make a lightweight aluminum frame.

Fetcher, I'll poke around on that site.

It seems like an e-runner, 3000w with a good lifepo4 battery pack is looking like the best option right now.

His commute is over flat land, so I think its ideal for electric. I think EVs really shine on flat land. And gas doesn't necessirily handle hills that well either. All the 50cc mopeds I've ever ridden have seriously struggled with hills.

I will definately tell him about 2-stroke engines. I'm sure the vespas aren't 2 stroke. They look like quality bikes.

 

[Ypedal]

Honda makes a good scooter ( Personally i like the look of the Ruckus http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2006models/2006models-Honda-Ruckus.htm )

And i think Vespas are 2 smokers..

About high-powered hubs, here is a quick snap shot and preview of the Red-Hornet ( Ironic, it's not red !! lol )

I finished grinding down a frame and trueing the rim tonight, I'll have a full report on it later once i put it to the road and record some numbers.

 

[fechter]

The EVT is another well made scooter. You kinda get what you pay for.

http://electricmotorsport.com/SCOOTERS/EVT/EvtEquinox168.htm

 

[vanilla ice]

Tell him to get the 84v GPR and then you can borrow it.

 

[fechter]

That's a good idea...

Here's another cool one from Thunderstruck Motors:
Comes in both dirt and pavement versions (different tires).

 

[CGameProgrammer]

How many of those are both ready for pick-up and street-legal? I'm pretty sure only the EVT and Leptons are, and neither goes above 28 mph stock. On the other hand, I can walk into a Vespa/Piaggio store right here in San Diego and test-drive and buy any of several dozen scooters they have, including freeway-capable ones.

Electric scooters can be great but nobody is mass-producing one that is, so it's basically a moot point unless you're willing to build one yourself.

Also I'm pretty sure all new scooters have to be four-stroke in the U.S. All the ones I saw were, though this is California.

 

[vanilla ice]

I'd probably go with a nice gas one myself. First option would be a used 200-250cc or if not maybe like a new 150. You can get a lot of capability for not much money. I believe some of the latest models are injected and even catalyzed. Big scooters require an M1 licence though.

You can still get two strokes as long as its under 50cc, not sure about here in CA though. I think here under 50 is ok too though. I've seen one gasoline GPR that thunderstruck's 80mph 84v GPR is based on in my neighborhood, and its a 50cc two stroke. Here's an 08 Yammy two stroke:
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelspecs/151/0/specs.aspx

I do know Vespa has a nice 200cc four stroker and I think they have a 250 also. I see one on the freeway once in a while. I'd never take one of those on the freeway, but this guy seems to do ok with it.

I think the jump going from a car to a gas scooter is a bigger one than going from a gas scooter to an electric scooter. Yeah I know this is an EV forum and all but I gots love for all sorts of two wheelers.

 

[Patrick]

The Leptons are great, although only 28 mph. You could get one from Thunderstruck fitted with lithium (ask for the GE LiFe) that would shave almost 100 lbs off the weight. Very elegant bikes.

The EVTs are also good. You can overvolt the 4000 to 60, and get 35 mph with no decrease in range. Solidly built, a good bike. Talk to Electric Motorsport.

The Zapinos are relatively new, and therefore unknown for longevity, but do hit close to 40. Also available with lithium (ThunderSky) from Electric Motorsport.

GPRs have been gone for a long time. You might still be be to get a Motard, fitted with Etek or Perm 132. They're not too bad, but probably wil have short range.

Those little bikes noted from Thunderstruck are really little - it's a kids MX refitted with an Etek.

Most important is fitting the bike to the needs. Speed and range, driving local and style, opportunity (work) charging, cargo - this is what will make it a success or failure.

 

[cerewa]

Also I'm pretty sure all new scooters have to be four-stroke in the U.S. All the ones I saw were, though this is California.

I checked google and it looks like you're right-- it's not just California.

 

[vanilla ice]

All two strokes over 50cc have definately been banned for many years here in the US. When I was scooter shopping years back I wanted a Gilera 180cc two stroke scooter, but they were a no no here. I had to settle for a slower four stroke. I think under 50 is still ok in all 50 states though, see the yamaha link above for an 08 model. And I remember coworker bought a vespa 50 two stroke in 2001.

In europe the emissions legislation seems to be more focused on co2, and efficiency so you see more small diesels and two strokes. In the US the laws are more focused towards limiting toxins and particulates. Or at least a few years back thats the way I understood it.

Of course even in the US the vintage two strokes over 50cc are grandfathered in so those are ok, but hardly anybody really uses those anymore. I have an old 750cc two stroke motorcycle that is street legal. A guy I know who actually rode his 750cc two stroke regularly had to finally stop recently because he got pulled over several times by CHP for excessive smoke.

I know since around 2000 mfgers have been introducing catalyzers to scooters and fuel injection has helped emissions also. I'm not sure how far the catalyzers have gotten, or what the regs are on emissions now though. I think under 50 is basically exempt.

 

[eP]

As a Patrick said:

Most important is fitting the bike to the needs. Speed and range, driving local and style, opportunity (work) charging, cargo - this is what will make it a success or failure.

So you didn't said what your bro really need.
If he need long range at high speed and fine acceleration, so the only choice is gasoline one.
If the long range is not important you have more choices.

 

[Beagle123]

Well, he need to go about 5-10 miles to work and back. He's bought a Vespa and loves it. Its a 150cc scooter. It looks really cool, and I can't wait to ride it. I'll be anxious to see how it compares to my new creation. Even though it looks like a great bike, I'm still not seeing why everyone continues to use oil. My electric bike has no oil or gas, so I could just walk it right through my living room. Hell, I could ride it around my living room without exaust. And I really don't see the appeal of oil changes. Or the noise they make.

I'm looking forward to making a scooter exactly like his except electric.

 

[vanilla ice]

I'm still not seeing why everyone continues to use oil.

Well comparing your project with his choice. He's got 15,000 watts of power. 150+ mile range without refill. 2 minute refill with many conveniently located refill stations. No assembly or soldering or wiring required. Nor any special knowledge. Warrantee covers the whole damn bike. Nationwide dealer network for support. Easy financing. Freeway legal. 70mph. No extra DMV hassles. And you can ride around in your living room.

I know I know. Just sayin. Hey, at least he's not commuting an Expedition like my cousin is.

 

[Beagle123]

Well comparing your project with his choice. He's got 15,000 watts of power.

No, that's wrong. A 150cc engine is about 9-12hp or 7500 watts. You could make an electric alternative that's 3000 watts and it would be lighter too.

The scooter he bought retails for about $4000. If you bought a $1000 scooter and had it built with $3000 of lithium batteries, you could get some very good results.

For example 96v with 40 amps would be 3800 watts, and since the electric would be a little more efficient, it might be close to the same as the gas bike.

However, I wouldn't want to ride either of them on the freeway.

150+ mile range without refill.

Last I checked, I've never had to refill my electric bike with gas. Its always ready to go. 150 mile range is a little advantage, but rarely used or even needed.

Its strange to me that people will spend $20,000 on a car, then gasp at how expensive an electric bike is. It seems reasonable to spend $2000 on a vehicle you can use for half of your driving.

 

[vanilla ice]

Doesn't seem strange at all to me, the way most people think.

$4k is a bit much for 150cc's. I guess you pay a premium for the name. You can get a 250 Kymco People for the same price. That would make closer to the power I was talking about, but thanks for the correction on that one, was just guessing. The point is valid though, even at ~7500 more is more. Also the $4k 250 would definitely be safer on the freeway than the Vespa.