Help. Need advice on first eBike

[phorbin]

Hello I'm interested in converting my 26" Giant mountain bike into an eBike and was looking for some advice. I ride my bike about 5 miles to work everyday in the suburbs of Chicago. So a few small hills nothing major. I want to be able to have about a 20 mile range and go about 20 mph unassistated. I'm not very heavy, only about 130lbs.

-Which is better rear or front wheel drive? To me having a hub motor on the front wheel sounds a little dangerous.
-With a rear wheel hub motor can I still pedal and use the motor? How does that work?
-Is the Wilderness Energy BL36, 600 Watt, 36V Brushlees Electric Bike Hub Engine any good? It is on sale for $400 on eBay but it is front wheel.
-Is the best battery to get a Ping LiFePO4? I was planning on getting something cheap to start and then upgrading to a nicer battery.
-Is there a kit or motor that you'd suggest? I'd like to do it on the cheap. I'm not afraid of doing some wiring or extra work if it will get me a better bike at a cheaper price.

Thank you so much.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Welcome to the forum.

There is a long running debate between front and rear motors. In favor of front, its easier to install, but it's also much more dangerous if something goes wrong. Some people prefer the way front motors feel when pulling you through a turn. Some people prefer the way rear motors push. Its a subtle difference, about like the difference between front and rear wheel drive cars.

I prefer rear wheel drive, and personally think the bike looks better with the motor in the back. IMHO, its more stealth that way.

20 miles at 20mph is possible with a few different motors. Mostly what makes the difference is the battery. Most motors could do it on a 48 volt, 20AH ping battery with a 20% reserve. Ping may be the best person to go to for a LiFePO4 battery. he sells fair quality at a fair price, and exceptional customer support.


Those WE kits are ok. Nothing wrong with them, but there are some better motors for the same money out there. The best seem to be the Nine Continent kits, and someone was just selling them for $180 here on sunday. He's sold out, but there are others selling them in the $300 range with more features. Other options are the Crystalyte motors, and the whole range of geared hubs.

Places to look for kits or parts would be:
Ebikes.ca
Ampedbikes.com
E-BikeKit.com

 

[ecowheelz]

Wilderness Energy kits are OK... but there's definitely better options out there. People seem to agree that Crystalyte Kits are top-of-the-line. And kits with Nine Continent motors (ie: Amped and E-BikeKit) seem to get good reviews. You get what you pay for! The WE kits are very affordable but probably won't last as long or be as versitile as some of the higher priced kits.

- Front vs. rear wheel is just a matter of preference. If you plan on mounting a heavy lead acid battery on the back of your bike, a front wheel motor will help equalize and balance the weight. A front wheel is also easier to install. But a rear wheel looks better (in my opinion) and might be safer if the frame / forks fail.
- Rear wheel kits operate just like fronts...
- The WE kits are OK, but there's better options out there...
- LiFePo4 is king! PING is a good option. ALSO, take a look at the LiFePo4 battery pack offered with the E-BikeKit. This complete e-bike package is moderately priced and includes top-of-the-line components...

 

[Russell]

Hello I'm interested in converting my 26" Giant mountain bike into an eBike and was looking for some advice. I ride my bike about 5 miles to work everyday in the suburbs of Chicago. So a few small hills nothing major. I want to be able to have about a 20 mile range and go about 20 mph unassistated. I'm not very heavy, only about 130lbs.

-Which is better rear or front wheel drive? To me having a hub motor on the front wheel sounds a little dangerous.
-With a rear wheel hub motor can I still pedal and use the motor? How does that work?
-Is the Wilderness Energy BL36, 600 Watt, 36V Brushlees Electric Bike Hub Engine any good? It is on sale for $400 on eBay but it is front wheel.
-Is the best battery to get a Ping LiFePO4? I was planning on getting something cheap to start and then upgrading to a nicer battery.
-Is there a kit or motor that you'd suggest? I'd like to do it on the cheap. I'm not afraid of doing some wiring or extra work if it will get me a better bike at a cheaper price.

Thank you so much.

Probably the best deal going is the WE kit from hightekbikes.com for $329 with free shipping for ES members. He also says he trues his wheels, something the eBay sellers don't do. However at least one eBay seller INCLUDES an SLA battery pack for less than $400 so that's a great deal if you want SLA's.

The best deal if you want to keep tabs on your performance is the Nine Continent kit from ebikes.ca which includes a Cycle Analyst for $435 +S/H ($40, I think).

Both of these are FRONT direct drive motors which are run SENSORLESS. If you want the 9C motor with a conventional controller then ampedbikes.com or e-bikekit.com offer them with the former a bit cheaper.

The kits above will all do about 20 mph on 36V, a little more with lithium.

If you want rear drive on a budget then the 400 series Crystalyte is the way to go.


For a premium front or rear drive set-up look at the eZee geared motor kit ($1200-$1300 w/LiMn 36V battery from ebikes.ca). The motors are some of the lightest available and they are geared so they offer great low-end torque plus they freewheel so they coast like a regular bike. The downside is the gears will eventually wear out. The BMC geared hub motors are similar to the eZee plus there is a new robust version 2 available (Cycle9.com). If you are worried about safety with a front motor then a geared motor is the best choice.

You may also want to consider the budget priced Bafang geared hub motor, it's available as front or rear however to get over 20 mph you'll need to run it on 48V. With your low weight it should perform quite well.

And yes with any hub motor you pedal just like normal. The rear motors all use conventional scew-on freewheels with 5-7 or 8 cogs which means you can use motor power and choose to pedal or not.


As for batteries; the Ping is about the lowest price but V2.5 isn't available right now. For about the same price you can get LiFePO4 batteries from hightekbikes with a small discount if you buy it with the motor kit. Ebikes.ca only offers NiCd or NiMh battery packs but they are still good options. Ampedbikes is supposed to be coming out with a new downtube battery box something like Crystalyte has which will house a LiMn "Phylion" battery, the same type eZee uses. No word on when it will be available however. The LiFePO4 battery from e-bikekit started out reasonably priced but then he jacked it up so he could offer a $100 discount if purchased with the motor kit :?


-R

 

[dogman dan]

I think the current best deal, not counting the shark feeding at ebike kits liquidation sale yesterday, is Terry's kit price on a Aotema, ( same as WE) front motor and a 20 ah 36v lifepo4.

20 mile plus range, check

20 mph plus speed, check

$879 including shipping See the for sale section to contact Terry for the ES shipping discount. The thread is called New Lifepo4 36v battery packs.

The $380 or so we kit with a set of sla's on ebay is a good deal too, if you want to delay buying a lifepo4 awhile. Expect about 8 miles max out of the sla's. I was able to wring 10 our of em a few times, but only by riding about 10 mph. Cut all range claims on WE webpages in half, or more. My aotema is going about 1.2 miles per ah of lifepo4. For sla's about 6 ah usable in a 12 ah, x 1.2=7.2 miles. That is at full speed, for my weight, 23 mph.

And yeah those cheap aotema motors don't last, unless you call 2000 miles on one and 540 on the new one wearing out quick. Nothing wrong with the brushed one I have 2000 miles on, I just upgraded to brushless for more range and a cooler running temp. Some bad controllers were sold last year, and lots of bad chargers, but who didn't have some returns given chinese quality controll? Myself, I had one bad charger, that WE replaced. From what I have seen, aotema made some good improvements to thier product in the last year. But the cheezy 2007 model motor I have is still kicking strong.
Rant over. :wink:

edit, I'm not knocking the nine continents or the ampedbikes deal, I'm just an aotema guy so far. As for front or rear, both feel good. Stout steel forks are a must for front hub. I like the way the front hub balances the battery carried in back, but on mountain trails, a light front end is real nice. On the city streets I don't miss jumping curbs, my town musta got a bunch a money from the state to ADA all the sidewalks.

 

[morph999]

Ditto on the hightekbikes.com offer.

$679 for 750watt motor plus 36v 10ah lifepo4 ....that's probably the best offer on the internet

$879 for 750 watt motor plus 36v 20ah lifepo4....again best offer on internet

I almost wish I would have waited and purchased it. The 36v 10ah might get you 20 miles range or close to it. Right guys? I don't own a lifepo4 but they get crazy range. The 36v 20ah will definitely get you 20 mile range. Or possibly 30 miles of range.

Some places charge $879 just for the battery.

http://hightekbikes.com/kits.html

And I think it goes 25 mph.

If he wanted to bump it up to 48v couldn't he wire a 12v 9ah battery in series with the lifepo4? I've never done it but it's probably possible.

 

[mrgarci1]

Gotta agree with Dogman and morph, Hightekbikes.com has some great deals, probably the best you'll find at the moment. For your weight & the speed & range you need, an Aotema front wheel might be exactly what you need - I have similar weight & speed requirements, and I'm a big fan of my WE brushless motor. I'm also in the process of deciding whether to buy one of Terry's LiFePO4 batts to replace my SLA (although I still keep having mood swings between whether I want to buy Terry's flat-cell pack or a Headway cylindrical-cell) and he's been really helpful with everything so far.

But what I really came in to say, Phorbin, is this: how excited are you about our (well, at least your and my) favorite band adding a tour date in Chicago today? :wink:

 

[morph999]

here are some of the places I looked at before I made my purchase

cycle9.com
ebikes.ca
hi-powercycles.com
electricrider.com
itselectric.ca
hightekbikes.com

here's the US store for itselectric
http://us.itselectric.ca/
Those are some of the more well known. I bought my first kit from cycle9.com. I bought my 2nd one from ebikes.ca (a 5303 motor and controller).

 

[Drunkskunk]

The 36v 10ah might get you 20 miles range or close to it. Right guys?

For perspective, I'm running 37V, 10Ahright now, and my normal riding style, I get 6 or 7 miles on it. it could probably be pushed to 8 but draining a pack is a bad idea. I have got more than 20 miles out of one before, when cruising with a 4012 at 12mph. it was a boring trip.

I like that 20Ah kit from hightekbikes.com you pointed out, though I think it realy needs to be 48V. The extra volts and capacity will help with those Chicago winds and voltage sag due to cold Chicago winters.
us.Itselectric.com Are also good people, although the batteries I got from them failed after a year.

 

[morph999]

ok, well if you want 20 miles, looks like you'll probably need the 36v 20ah lifepo4.

 

[dogman dan]

yup, I like to use the figure 1 amp hour 1 mile for the aotemas, at 36v. That leaves you a margin for wind, but big wind, we have it here too, can cut it down 25% easy.

 

[phorbin]

OK still not sure what I am going to do.

Phish threw a big wrench into the gears of my brain.

Leaning towards a rear wheel kit. Trying to find one on eBay cause they are giving 10% off on almost everything today.

Can I get some SLA batteries cheap at Fry's or somewhere for my setup? I'm still thinking about getting cheap batteries until I can afford to get some really nice ones. Also isn't there a new version on the LiFePO4 batteries coming out soon?

 

[Drunkskunk]

there is always something new coming out with batteries. every 6 months or so, someone offers up something better and cheaper.

Most batteries, like Nicad, NiMh, LiMn, LiPo, LiFePO4, ect, can be used close to there full rated capacity, although its best no0t to use them past 80% or so to increase there lifespan.
But SLA are diffrent. if you get 60% of there total capacity, you're lucky, and it's best not to take them down to that 60% level, so for figuring out what size battery you need, double it for SLA.
they can be had for relitivly cheap, but the ones Fry's sells are for UPS, and can't handle the high drain rate of Ebikes. For local sources, Toys R Us sells the 12v 10Ah and 7AH Power wheels batteries, and those are better suited to your needs, or you can get motorcycle batteries. Online, you can order BB's, which have a good reputation for SLA...

 

[XRuss]

Another hub source is Bernson EV. He has a WE BL36 kit for 369.00 incl free ship. It's a AOTEMA hub but don"t know if its the same model that dogman has been testing. Maybe some one can make a coment on this.

http://www.bernsonev.com

 

[dogman dan]

By now most WE kits should be 2009 stock. The 2008 one was a few mph slower. Rear may be better than front, but on a budget, the fronties seem to have the best prices in general. On batteries, just be sure you get ones intended for EV use. Since shipping lead gets expensive, one oft overlooked source of the right type is toy stores. They sell replacements for the toy cars kids drive around, usually for around $50 apiece. Once you price EV type batteries and include shipping for someplace a few hundred miles away, that price starts to compete. If you live in a really big town, you may have a local place to look that normally ships.

But before you go off the cliff with sla's, see if you can squeeze nicads from ebikes-ca into the budget. I just took delivery last night on a 24v pack and I am amazed at the size and weight of this "obsolete" chemistry compared to sla. It's for a 24v bike, so the pack is tiny. An 8 ah pack will have as much distance in it as a 12 ah sla pack. I am so sick of the whole sla ritual of worrying about depth of discharge and how quick I can get charging again.

 

[morph999]

I use 12v9ah sla batteries but I live downtown so I only need 10 mile range. I can get 9 or 10 miles out of it but toward the 5th and 6th mile, I have to start pedaling a little and it goes slower.

If you get the 12v 18ah SLA's and use 36v, you could probably get 13 miles out of it without sweating or doing much pedaling. That'd be about 13 x 3 = 39 lbs. Or you could gets some 12v15ah B&N or tempest batteries that are lighter....that'd be about 9 x 3 = 27 lbs for 36v with 15ah. Or 36lbs for 48v 15ah.

These are some batteries I looked at recently
http://www.batteryspec.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?action=link&product=223

They could suck for all I know but I was contemplating getting them. They are still 9lbs with 14ah.

B&B has 12v 15ah and still 9lbs but they are usually $50.

 

[morph999]

hey phorbin,

you are probably better off getting a 36 v motor kit from http://hightekbikes.com

You can get a full kit with 36v 10ah lifepo4 for $679. You can't beat a price like that anywhere. Not even on ebay. And then if you want 48v, you could probably by a cheap 12v SLA battery and wire it up somehow.

 

[icecube57]

Im sorry but I cant vouch for "WE Kits" any more. Maybe their motor paired with another controller would be ok. But their kits... even when used conservatively their stuff blows up kinda quickly. If they were used at the recommended stock setup or fine but once you get hooked on ebikes their stuff does nothing but piss you off because you want more. Spend and extra 150 or 200 and get a motor and controller with some breathing room and flexibility. Atleast a 400 series Clyte. Or a Golden Motor (Wink). An X5 was to steep for my budget. Bafang is good if you run them stock and not get agressive with them. Im also hearing good thing about the nine continents motors. Brushless is the only way to go now. You can run it at rated and go well beyond without much problems. And I used to be cocky about torque arms but it took a recent thread to make me go out and get one. I dont care if you running a 24v WE system get a bloody torque arm or just kill youself there is no in between on that for me now.

 

[dogman dan]

I have to agree WE brushed is crap, there is a reason they don't sell em any more. Unfortunately I bought two of em before I knew better. But my new aotema brushless shows a whole different level of quality both on the controller and the motor itself. But they still only come in front hub, and one winding count.

 

[morph999]

Im sorry but I cant vouch for "WE Kits" any more. Maybe their motor paired with another controller would be ok. But their kits... even when used conservatively their stuff blows up kinda quickly. If they were used at the recommended stock setup or fine but once you get hooked on ebikes their stuff does nothing but piss you off because you want more. Spend and extra 150 or 200 and get a motor and controller with some breathing room and flexibility. Atleast a 400 series Clyte. Or a Golden Motor (Wink). An X5 was to steep for my budget. Bafang is good if you run them stock and not get agressive with them. Im also hearing good thing about the nine continents motors. Brushless is the only way to go now. You can run it at rated and go well beyond without much problems. And I used to be cocky about torque arms but it took a recent thread to make me go out and get one. I dont care if you running a 24v WE system get a bloody torque arm or just kill youself there is no in between on that for me now.

Is that what hightekbikes.com is selling? W.E. kits? Is aotema and W.E. the same thing?

 

[mrgarci1]

Yes, the motors that come with WE kits say "AOTEMA" although I've never heard that name advertised or anything - that's just the logo on the side of the motor

 

[phorbin]

OK I think I got it all picked out.
The 4825 RoadRunner 26" Rear Wheel power system only kit from http://www.electricrider.com for $450 I can't seem to find a better price than that. I was also thinking of getting the cruise control and brake inhibitors for 50 bucks. Brake inhibitors sound like a good idea to conserve battery and just make it easier to ride. What about the cruise control? Will that just get in my way? Also with a thumb throttle do I have to hold it at the speed or just set it and it stays. Cause if it just stays in the position you set it I don't see the reason in getting a cruise control. I have twist shifters on my bike so I need to get a thumb throttle.
Finally which LiFePO4 battery should I pair with this system? I was thinking the 36V 15Ah battery. Will that get me my 20 Mph for 20 Miles?
Cool. Cool.
Thanks for everyones help. My tax refund came yesterday so I am ready to order my kit next week.
SO EXCITED!

 

[Drunkskunk]

roadrunner is a good choice, its there tradename for the Crystalyte 408. Thats the motor I run.
But the 4825 in the kit's name means its a 48 volt kit, with a 25amp controller. Not suitable for a 36V battery because the 4825 controller would have the LVC set for a 48 volt battery.
And trust me, the Clyte 408 is boring and slow on 36 volts, you'll want 48.

The Electricrider kit isn't a bad deal. $450 is a good cheap price for a 408 and a controller.
However.
You might look at Ebikes.ca for this. you have to buy the motor, controller, and throttle seperate. that will set you back $495, However, the diffrence is the controller. Instead of the basic 25 amp 48 volt controller from Electricrider, you get an Imediate start 24-72 volt, 30 amp controller using 4110 FETS, and the ability to use a direct plugin Cycle Analyst. Not only will that let you run a 36volt battery if you want, you could run any voltage you wanted between 24 and 72 volts, if you find you want to change it later. And the 4110 FETS run cooler and more efficently. you'll roll a little further for every watt, you'll go a hair faster at full speed, and with 30 amps, you'll accelerate better, fight wind better, and climb hills better.

 

[dogman dan]

The controller is better on the ebikes-ca kits from what I've read too. The ability to run a wider voltage and direct plug in is worth it. Ebikes ca doesn't offer the brake levers because they don't do anything you need. Only really slow thinking people keep the throttle on while braking. I can't say if the cruise controll is good or not, but it may be a nice option if you ride long distances between stop signs. Customer service wise, electric rider has no where near as good a reputation as ebikes-ca.

You could just get the 36v kit from electircrider if you want to run 36v. A 15 ah battery will take you very close to 20 miles, but with no reserve for wind, route changes, low tires, etc. And a battery will last much much more cycles if you don't take it down to the last watt on every ride. For 20 miles range, a 20 ah battery is a much better choice. Never believe vendors claims as to how far a charge will take you. It's no coincidence that ebikes-ca does not tell you that. They know there is too many variables for it to be reliablly predictied. I can only say that at my weight, 180 lbs, on my bike with a similar motor, riding full throttle up and down moderate hills with no wind, I can go 23 miles with my 36v 20 ah battery. A 48 volt would of course be bigger by 12v 20 ah, so it could go farther at the same speed, or similar distance at a faster speed. All things considered, a 48v 20 ah lifepo4 is a good choice. Personally I am happy enough with the speed at 36v. My motor at 36v goes 23 mph on flat ground, and I pedal a bit to reach 25 mph most of the ride.

On the subject of aotema. Wilderness Energy kits use a motor made by the AO-TE-MA company in china. They also make many other motors, under a lot of brands, but I don't know which brands those are. Like phoenix or roadrunner, WE and Golden are both marketing brands, while the actual manufacturer may be unknown to us consumers. A lot more of us may be on aotema motors than we think. If there is a difference between a WE kit and the High Tech Bikes kit I can't tell what it is. The service and shipping cost is much better at high tech, than the WE official vendor site, at WE r electrified.

Back on the WE reliability issue, a lot, and I mean a lot, of dead chargers were shipped with kits. But to call something crap because the 36v controller blew at 66 v is hardly fair in my opinion. The brushed motor itself is pretty low quality though, that is for sure. But they were cheap to buy. The ebikes ca controllers that can take a wide range of voltages are aimed at a different kind of customer,,,, like us here on the sphere.

 

[phorbin]

OK thanks for the tip!

So electric rider is out of the Crystalyte 408 rear motor so looks like I'll be getting everything from the great white north.
My shopping list for ebikes.ca
- Crystalyte 408 Rear hub motor (Ebikes.ca suggests to get a 11 tooth freewheel. Could I get this at my local bike shop?)
- 24-72V 35A Start Immediate Brushless Controller
- Crystalyte Thumb Throttle
-Will I need any wires or connectors too?
- And a Cycle analyst in the future. (Do you think I'll be ok without a battery gauge for a few months until I can get the analyst)

And that darn battery...
Which should I get, the LiFePO4 48v 20ah or the 15ah? Do you think there will be much difference in my range?
Or do I get a 48v NiMh? I can't seem to find a good looking NiMh battery. I am up for a cheaper alternative to the LiFePO4 since I am getting the nicer controller and such. I was looking into maybe building my own custom battery pack. Is it that complicated? It doesn't look too bad. Just get the cells, wire them together and package them. Is there any advantage to making your own battery pack besides custom shape? I'm a really handy guy and am not scared of a little electrical work. I was thinking of constructing a plexiglass box to house the battery and secure it mid-bike so all the weight isn't toward the back. Any battery suggestions?