HobbyKing unable to provide UN38.3 and MSDS

[Upperfoot]

I wanted to send along some unused batteries under IATA PI965 Section IA and requested a UN38.3 certificate and MSDS for one of their LiPO products and I got the below response... how exactly are they shipping goods around without those two things?

 

[amberwolf]

Remember, there's a lot of these battery companies literally selling recycled garbage to their customers, so you can't really think they care about anything beyond money?

Certifications, testing, and paperwork all cost a lot of money--they're not going to spend a penny they don't absolutely have to.

If someone comes after them they probably just intend to disappear and crop up under some new name. (IIRC BMSBattery has already done that at least once, before becoming the company they are now).

 

[Upperfoot]

Remember, there's a lot of these battery companies literally selling recycled garbage to their customers, so you can't really think they care about anything beyond money?

If someone comes after them they probably just intend to disappear and crop up under some new name. (IIRC BMSBattery has already done that at least once, before becoming the company they are now).

My thoughts exactly, I didn't expect much so I'm actually in contact with Parcelforce who handled the last leg of the shipment's journey in the UK, hopefully they know who signed off the package.

 

[Upperfoot]

So Lucky Stuff Limited is the distributor in the UK - https://support.hobbyking.com/hc/en-us/articles/360036342033-Do-you-have-a-warranty-return-address-in-Europe-

Yuheng, Wu is the current owner - https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07555774/officers

Yuheng, Wu also works at Hextronik (trading as HobbyKing) - yuheng.wu@hextronik.com

So looks like they are the same company even though they pretend they aren't.

 

[amberwolf]

Very common, not just for Chinese businesses. Keeps them from having to work with or help their customers, by passing the buck back and forth to themselves, or some toher such ridiculousness, and the customer doesn't know they're not the same (most won't search for this kind of info).

May even protect them against authorities in the case of legal issues, depending on what they did and how they set it up.

 

[Upperfoot]

Well, this has been an enlightening journey for me. I've passed the information onto the relevant regulatory agencies as it's a public safety risk, especially if those shipments are incorrectly put onto passenger flights. They'll most likely disappear and reappear as another name.

 

[Hillhater]

“Enlightening “..??
I think you are a bit late to the game here ?
Did you really expect a chinese hobby battery supplier to comply with western regulations, standards, and documentation. ??
You should consider yourself fortunate that you got such an honest reply, and not just a bunch of forged “cut and paste” documentation to satisfy your request
Compliance to all “normal” regulations would make their products much more expensive......and consequently you probably would not be dealing with them anyway .

 

[eMark]

Remember, there's a lot of these battery companies literally selling recycled garbage to their customers, so you can't really think they care about anything beyond money?

Hopefully, it's not gotten that bad in our global economy. Who can undercut the competition and still satisfy the customer. What percent of Lipo novices that abuse and misuse Lipos over and over will ever learn. That's exactly why these Chinese Lipo battery companies can get away selling second-rate garbage because the end user is taken by marketing lingo that is false based on only a few cycles assuming the Lipo is never misused or abused.

Anyway, this thread (IMM) goes to show that the vast majority of Lipo enthusiasts can't afford to buy quality Lipos because limited funds and their own misuse and abuse of Lipos so why would they spend anymore money than they have. Lipo eager beavers are always pushing their batteries so they're lucky if they get 25 cycles because of discharge overheating and charging too fast. It's only natural they don't want to spend more money than necessary and so HobbyKing is happy to give them what they want ... an off-brand (second-rate) Lipo with supposedly good-looking specs at a reasonable price.

Business Ethics is even more of an oxymoron in a Globally Competitive Market when it becomes to expensive and labor intensive to hold the guilty party accountable. So, YES, it's gotten as dire as amber's post. And yet it still comes down to "Buyer Beware". Thus, why a forum like Endless Sphere has so many members to help keep all of us as level-headed as humanly possible knowing how to read between the lines.

FWIW, my 30Q 141 cells in my 10S3P show no sign of self-discharge after 50 cycles with no abuse or misuse.

 

[Upperfoot]

“Enlightening “..??
I think you are a bit late to the game here ?
Did you really expect a chinese hobby battery supplier to comply with western regulations, standards, and documentation. ??
You should consider yourself fortunate that you got such an honest reply, and not just a bunch of forged “cut and paste” documentation to satisfy your request
Compliance to all “normal” regulations would make their products much more expensive......and consequently you probably would not be dealing with them anyway .

See this is the problem, people like yourself say its common knowledge but to the layperson it really isn't, and something that is required in our industry isn't being done even to its most basic level is something we can identify, but to those who don't have that type of training how are they to know?

My point really is that carriers are letting distributors like HobbyKing through the gate, it should have been stopped at that point, but its not. That's a big red flag.

 

[DogDipstick]

Remember, there's a lot of these battery companies literally selling recycled garbage to their customers, so you can't really think they care about anything beyond money?

Lipo eager beavers are always pushing their batteries so they're lucky if they get 25 cycles because of discharge overheating and charging too fast.


FWIW, my 30Q 141 cells in my 10S3P show no sign of self-discharge after 50 cycles with no abuse or misuse.

I'll sell you some recycled garbage. hardest thing to do is ship safely. Transparantly, its a convoluted mess for anyone wanting to.

I can usually get the UN 38.2 from a supplier or from searching through the datasheets fotr the particular CELL in question.. but not the BATTERY that is built from it. I have never seen a 38.2 for a 'battery" ... only cells....


18650's? lipos? How did you guys ever build ebikes without more than 25 cycles?
25 Cycles? i never got that few cycles from a production hobby grade lipo. Usually many more. Usually over 100, and I beat them with 200A @ 12s. Usually lose count, and only the datalogs tell me where the health is in the particular batt. I dont think anyone would buy them for only 25 cycles... and if they die in 25 cycles, they are not a "durable consumer good" ( lasting traded product) and the warranty returns cost would kill HK...

FWIW, 50 cycles on a 3p pack isnt anything to brag about.... If I was to buy an 18650 pack I would want at least 300 cycles before assessing the health. Good 18650 packs last years, and it is a durable, good investment for the buyer. All regulated up. My Dewalt 20v packs are powerful and old by now... IR allover the place, but they still drive screw good...

I have harvested recycled cells that are many years old and I beat up for at least 6.6C..... Well over 200 cycles, full charge every time and hard discharges, when everyone told me lipos only last 200 cycles on an ebike... I have lipos cells in the garage getting harvested that I guarantee the buyer free replacement.. even though I have no idea how many cycles are on them. I know they are lasting long enough for the customer to be happy. I am no incorporation, though. But... I can do this cause of the cell quality.

I dont think HK wants to tell you what cells they use, or where they ( lowest bidder) get them.... or the QC system they asses the cells value with.

Yall ever just buy a lipo from overseas tha came "installed " in a cheap cell checker? If the cells are "installed in a device"... they can ship around the regulations... It is funny buying a 6s5000mAh battery.. and it shows up with a 3$ cell checker that isnt doing anything but sitting in the box.. Lol. One way to be honest when you ship something "as installed'.

A real good 18650 pack is worth its weight in gold.. can handle amps and lasts years upon years...

Todays haul: 4 more modules on their way. Shipped the good ol American way. Freight.

 

[john61ct]

Western standards HA! Maybe 50 years ago. . .

Most regulation is just a fig leaf anyway, no one actually cares about protecting ordinary people.

Maximum profits, government just facilitates that

some headlines come up from an incident, new regs strict enforcement promised, six months later all back to business as usual.

We're on our own, caveat emptor, educate yourself, take reasonable precautions but

there is no surer path to real bankruptcy than actually trying to comply with all the regs.

Of course "bankruptcies of convenience" are used all the time in "the West" as well, it's just a bit more difficult and expensive

which is why all those low cost bleeding edge tech innovators in Asia do not bother setting up proper official distribution channels in "better regulated" jurisdictions, just not worth the trouble.

And so we fall farther behind in those industries, which most of our "leaders" are perfectly happy with, maintaining the status quo.

 

[eMark]

i never got that few cycles from a production hobby grade lipo. Usually many more. Usually over 100, and I beat them with 200A @ 12s.

amberwolf wasn't referring to a reputable production hobby grade lipo when he posted the following to which I responded and was basically agreeing with amberwolf ...

Remember, there's a lot of these battery companies literally selling recycled garbage to their customers, so you can't really think they care about anything beyond money?

That may be a little strong, if such a producer ever hopes to stay in business for any length of time, but perhaps no stronger than your following belief with current spot price of gold at $57/gram. $57x46g = $2,622 per 18650 cell) ...

A real good 18650 pack is worth its weight in gold..

My reference to Samsung's 18650 newer 30Q 141 cells (since mid-2019) that I used in my 10S3P battery was about Samsung's frustrated 30Q ebikers reporting a significant self-discharge problem with some of the older 30Q 136 cells.

FWIW, my 30Q 141 cells in my 10S3P show no sign (yet) of self-discharge after 50 cycles with no abuse or misuse.

Will report back this fall on a separate thread with accumulated cycles at that time to see if any self-discharge problem is noticed between now and November. Then into winter storage until spring with the purpose to report percentage of any self-discharge over the winter months with my 30Q 141 10S3P battery.. I have another 10S5P battery I can use with warming jacket. It's possible that Samsung corrected the previous self-discharge problem with their new 30Q 141 cell runs. The reason I bought the 141 cells was with the belief that Samsung would eventually solve the self-discharge problem reported by frustrated ebikers.

Time will tell although most ebikers have given up on 30Q's with sales now for flashlight and ecig use than ebikers. The 30Q will likely never again gain a foothold among DIY ebikers even if there is no longer a self-discharge problem with 30Q 141 cells even if cycle life is improved.

 

[Hillhater]

See this is the problem, people like yourself say its common knowledge but to the layperson it really isn't, .....

? Well, i did not say it was common knowlege ?..
...what i said was....

..... Did you really expect a chinese hobby battery supplier to comply with western regulations, standards, and documentation. ??

Implying that if you are doing a purchace from a chinese supplier, you ought to make yourself aware of the risks.
Lack of documentation/fake documentation is one of the lesser issues.

 

[amberwolf]

Implying that if you are doing a purchace from a chinese supplier, you ought to make yourself aware of the risks.

The problem is, that if you are a typical consumer, you don't know that anything is different simply because of where you purchase from, because your expectations were already set by where you purchased from before. And most things are Chinese-made, even the really good products.

Quite a lot of people, probably most of them, are inexperienced enough to have no idea that there is any risk to make themselves aware of.

That's the "common knowledge assumption" Upperfoot is referring to.

They can't know what they don't know until someone (like us) or something (like a bad experience they have) shows them their expectations are not going to be met by everyone.


Some people are lucky enough to have had their expectations set low by a bad first experience (wherever they bought from, and whatever they bought), and know to look for stuff. Or to have heard of or read of others' bad experiences.

But many, probably most, are not like that, and don't know that they don't know things.

If they were, we wouldn't have the huge number of people that come to this forum with the problems they do, or with what we consider unreasonable build/budget expectations.