How do police test compliance of ebike (Australia)

[MJ85]

These compliance regulations jus seems silly, overly complicated, and really serves no perceived intended purpose,.... that being to regulate the actions of the operator in a specific manner.

Yup. Watt he said. All these laws and regulations clearly don't work... based on numbers of injuries and deaths and property damages... EVery day.

My vote? Regulate (fine) the operator ("driver", "rider", etc) and NOT the vehicle itself. With fines going up (rapidly) based on vehicle weight and based on Stupidity Level. (Riding past too close to a doorway, etc etc... long list where "stupidity" is involved.)

Re the OP in this thread... "Police test compliance"? Why, because operator was misbehaving like any "normal" pedestrian or vehicle operator? Just curious...

In a world where we all had a unified common sense that would work. Tony hawk would clap and applaude on a near miss whereas my mother would slap me silly though and that's kinda the issue.

I do get your frustrations though, i guess each country has it's crooked a archaic laws i'm afraid. I'm all for vehicle classification though, at the very least it makes my work a whole lot easier The most fair system would account for horsepower/weight/co2 emission and utilisation. Even in that system there would be plenty of people feeling left behind.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn MI MAX met Tapatalk

 

[LockH]

Hehe ... "gezond verstand". Een van mijn favoriete oxyMORONS. Proost

 

[SaladFish]

Re the OP in this thread... "Police test compliance"? Why, because operator was misbehaving like any "normal" pedestrian or vehicle operator? Just curious...

"Driving an unregistered and uninsured vehicle is an offence attracting on the spot infringement notice fines of over $1200 ($607 for being unregistered and $530 for being uninsured). If the matter goes to court, the maximum fine is $2200 for driving unregistered and $5500 for driving uninsured."

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/geared/your_car/registration_and_insurance/driving_unregistered.html

It only takes one nosy police officer and I could be thousands worse off. I've already been caught for forgetting to complete registration renewal which cost $623 and it is an experience and expense I'm not willing to chance.

I've emailed RMS and they say the 200 watt is what the motor is capable of, the wording sounds like any electric motor would fail. I have emailed NSW police to ask them their method of determining compliance. No response from them yet.

 

[MJ85]

Hehe ... "gezond verstand". Een van mijn favoriete oxyMORONS. Proost

Haha, true dat

 

[SaladFish]

I've just been down to the local police station and they say the bike is confiscated and tested on a dyno by an engineer and a charge is laid if it is over 200 watt. So 200 watt is at the wheel.

From here I need to get access dyno so I can accurately configure an ebike to be under 200 watt at the wheel with a margin for error.

I need to find out what the margin of error is for ebike testing dyno (if they use a motorcycle dyno it would be inaccurate as previously mentioned in this thread).

Also I need to make sure the ebike has a simple "<200 watt" button so that the engineer or prosecution in court cannot draw into question the ebike's power output may have been changed by myself when the police pull me over.

Maybe there is a dynomometer designed for bicycles that can be used.

 

[liveforphysics]

I've just been down to the local police station and they say the bike is confiscated and tested on a dyno by an engineer and a charge is laid if it is over 200 watt. So 200 watt is at the wheel.

From here I need to get access dyno so I can accurately configure an ebike to be under 200 watt at the wheel with a margin for error.

I need to find out what the margin of error is for ebike testing dyno (if they use a motorcycle dyno it would be inaccurate as previously mentioned in this thread).

Also I need to make sure the ebike has a simple "<200 watt" button so that the engineer or prosecution in court cannot draw into question the ebike's power output may have been changed by myself when the police pull me over.

Maybe there is a dynomometer designed for bicycles that can be used.

This is called creating trouble for your life.

Some games you lose for playing, the more you play the more you lose.

 

[markz]

I've just been down to the local police station and they say the bike is confiscated and tested on a dyno by an engineer and a charge is laid if it is over 200 watt. So 200 watt is at the wheel.

From here I need to get access dyno so I can accurately configure an ebike to be under 200 watt at the wheel with a margin for error.

I need to find out what the margin of error is for ebike testing dyno (if they use a motorcycle dyno it would be inaccurate as previously mentioned in this thread).

Also I need to make sure the ebike has a simple "<200 watt" button so that the engineer or prosecution in court cannot draw into question the ebike's power output may have been changed by myself when the police pull me over.

Maybe there is a dynomometer designed for bicycles that can be used.

Take a look at this
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84385#p1234805
Go down to the video and examine it.
I started to do an index, but its there. If I were you I'd just start it, and go until the 15:00 mark, but the legal part of interest is at 11:00. 12:30 is a good point.

I dont know the back story here, and perhaps Aussie is different. But there would have to be one bored cop to hassle a person being reasonable on their ebike. Or the more plausible interaction would be someone goofing off on their ebike, doing wheelies up and down Main Street, people the public at risk, and perhaps an accidnet happened, in which the poo poo would say "Ah look eeeee here, look at this strange object on a bicycle, we need to look at this" while they are getting out their ticket book and salivating because now they will meet their ticket writting quota for the month.

 

[TheBeastie]

I've just been down to the local police station and they say the bike is confiscated and tested on a dyno by an engineer and a charge is laid if it is over 200 watt. So 200 watt is at the wheel.

From here I need to get access dyno so I can accurately configure an ebike to be under 200 watt at the wheel with a margin for error.

I need to find out what the margin of error is for ebike testing dyno (if they use a motorcycle dyno it would be inaccurate as previously mentioned in this thread).

Also I need to make sure the ebike has a simple "<200 watt" button so that the engineer or prosecution in court cannot draw into question the ebike's power output may have been changed by myself when the police pull me over.

Maybe there is a dynomometer designed for bicycles that can be used.

I think those who are hanging onto the 200w throttle standard instead of the PAS only 250w standard are just pushing Australia faster to the same laws as they have in New York where ebikes are so banned that if they even find one on a premise they can issue a fine to the premises.

When I ride along some major bike paths in Melbourne like the Yarra the only times, ever, when I have a bad/dangerous experiences ever is when its someone else on an ebike.
Bad experiences such as coming around a bend and having a rider come the other way, riding on my side of the clearly lined bike path at speed in my face and only just make it out of the way in time to avoid collision, and its always an ebiker.
And its a disheartening smack to the face of reality to see every time. And often they go past you like that with some kind of demented look on their face that they are somehow doing you a favor by almost running into you like an idiot.

Every time this happens I realize that this can't last forever and we will have police come down on ebikes like in Denmark as MJ85 fantastically outlined in here.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84154&start=25#p1235264
But you know Australia.. they just as much like to use the words 'banned' as much as the Chinese government do..

If you managed to have a serious accident on an ebike that hurts some one else lawyers are probably going to accuse you of riding a monkey bike than any kind of ebike. They are going to try and shove a pine cone up your backside to the fullest extent of the law.
If you didn't know monkey bikes are so banned now in Victoria that they get crushed because some riders have managed to go beyond just killing themselves on them but killing others by knocking folks over on them and just riding away.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/premier-daniel-andrews-to-introduce-new-laws-in-state-parliament-to-crush-monkey-bikes/news-story/6fa9f85e263af55f42933ac802e7ebbc

I know other local ebikers must be doing wrong things because I have seen cops in cars stair with a prickly cross look on their faces at my frame ebike bag like they were looking into the gate ways of hell. Probably my main defense is looking like a some what aged old fat geek that obeys the law.
I also once sat in a coffee shop window with my ebike locked up on the footpath and watched these two comes see it and fully stand around and circle it like it was a bomb about to go off before moving on.. Not good signs..

Folks that sit there and argue to me or anyone on this forum (which is technically pointless in changing laws) with chewbaccery points of view such as cars have practically unlimited power but ebikes can't? etc it won't make any difference..
All those points of view are just chewbacca defense/routine points of view and wont standard up to those who implement laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwdba9C2G14

[youtube]clKi92j6eLE[/youtube]

I have thought about this sinister theory that one of the reasons why the USA have a generous no license ebike power laws with no helmets is because when folks have accidents the private hospitals can make a killing money wise for overcharging for care compared to a public health system where all tax payers pay the bill..
The Wikileaks emails on Clinton show much these guys at the top get together and make their little deals..

 

[Chalo]

When I ride along some major bike paths in Melbourne like the Yarra the only times, ever, when I have a bad/dangerous experiences ever is when its someone else on an ebike.

Consider for a moment that the very same riders who are unwilling to spend any physical effort on their rides are the ones who are also unwilling to spend any mental effort. To me, this is the only plausible explanation for car driver behavior. Dipshit e-bikers are like the car drivers of the two wheeled world. Once they've spent their money, they reckon that's all they have to do.

 

[MJ85]

Re the OP in this thread... "Police test compliance"? Why, because operator was misbehaving like any "normal" pedestrian or vehicle operator? Just curious...

"Driving an unregistered and uninsured vehicle is an offence attracting on the spot infringement notice fines of over $1200 ($607 for being unregistered and $530 for being uninsured). If the matter goes to court, the maximum fine is $2200 for driving unregistered and $5500 for driving uninsured."

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/geared/your_car/registration_and_insurance/driving_unregistered.html

It only takes one nosy police officer and I could be thousands worse off. I've already been caught for forgetting to complete registration renewal which cost $623 and it is an experience and expense I'm not willing to chance.

I've emailed RMS and they say the 200 watt is what the motor is capable of, the wording sounds like any electric motor would fail. I have emailed NSW police to ask them their method of determining compliance. No response from them yet.

Holy shit! Even with the current exchange rate that's just stupid amounts of money. Man, even a first time simple theft (-50 euro's in damages) here gets you a fine of 220 euro's and thats a crime and not an offense. Even though driving around uninsured is a serious offense, the penalty far outweighs the act in my opinion. Thank god for compounding factors in our law; Driving uninsured gets you initially 2 weeks to prove that you are insured, if not, its 180 euro's afaik for a moped. If you are driving a lorry there's no fixed amount and the ticket gets sent straight to the DA without a 2 week term. If you get into a crash on your ebike, and police finds out you're to blame.. Well then you're royally frocked and imo rightly so. A blue plate means you are still tax free but you are insured!

 

[Ozzzz]

Our ebike laws are ridiculous. We seem all too willing to be governed by lazy bastards content in making law for the lowest common denominator.. and calling that good enough! My only experience has been with the mac at 1000w and i'd consider that a good safe and useful standard, dero's and hoons set aside for the moment.

 

[Hillhater]

Holy shit! Even with the current exchange rate that's just stupid amounts of money. .......!

...as the song goes..."This is Australiaaaa". :lol:
Authorities here recently had a fit and spent a few days slapping $300 fines on pedestrians that dared to step into the road anywhere other than a pedestrian crossing ......and that was in the city center !
Our whole government just spent a week debating if they should change a law to prevent the import of a 7 shot (lever action) shotgun...but allow the 5 shot version instead !
We have a real Nanny state..

 

[Sunder]

Holy shit! Even with the current exchange rate that's just stupid amounts of money. Man, even a first time simple theft (-50 euro's in damages) here gets you a fine of 220 euro's and thats a crime and not an offense.

Exchange rate isn't all that there is. The average wage here is like $74,700 or something. So in order for a fine to be a deterrent, it needs to be fairly high.

In one example, I travelled to Tasmania (a state of Australia), and saw I got fined for being 10 minutes over the time limit. I was about to be pissed, until I saw that the fine was for $11. The same fine in NSW would have been $106. If $11 went missing from my wallet, I probably wouldn't even notice. $106 on the other hand, it wouldn't make my kids go hungry for a week, but I'd still be pissed.

On the other hand, when I was in Malaysia, the parking fine for going over time was about $2.50. If I had a car there, I would have laughed and not bothered to buy a ticket.

 

[SaladFish]

Breaking news!

I found the company that performed the testing and gave them a call. They mention that they have a dynometer for under 1kw output which would be more accurate than something for a motorcycle. $80 was quoted for testing of an ebike. Peace of mind at only $80, that's pretty good.

Here is what Australian ebikers should do to avoid $5,500 fine for riding unregistered uninsured ebike that is over 200 watt at the back wheel.

1) Get the ebike and make sure it's power can be adjusted.

2) Get the ebike tested and calibrate it to be under 200 watt.

3) Ride with confidence that the next police officer you see won't cost you a $5,500 fine.

4) (Optional) Streamline the bike/trike so it travels at 80km+ per hour.

5) Profit.

[youtube]N6f8CizHmYM[/youtube]

It would be so much easier to cruise at 70km per hour if I had 1kw at the back wheel but I'll just have to manage with 200 watt plus my mighty legs.

 

[Hillhater]

Errr?.. So is it a secret who these dyno testing folk are ?...

 

[markz]

When will the authorities do a dyno test on an ebike?
Never
They just as soon give you a ticket and go on their way to the donut shop.

 

[SaladFish]

Errr?.. So is it a secret who these dyno testing folk are ?...

S&R PRO PERFORMANCE BIKES AND DYNO TUNING

When will the authorities do a dyno test on an ebike?
Never
They just as soon give you a ticket and go on their way to the donut shop.

NSW Australia is a anti bicycle nanny state and police have been making an effort to crack down on bicyclists. I don't trust a police officer to let me off for breaking a law (exceeding 200watt ebike), as soon as they notice something different about my bicycle they'll look for a way to give me a fine. They have quotas, it's their job to look for problems. Since I am currently building a recumbent bicycle and will be riding faster than I can on my road bicycle I think it will only be a matter of time before a police officer pulls me over.

 

[markz]

Tell me this, you got an ebike with a 1000W hub motor in the back. Its completely covered by pannier bags hanging off the rear rack. Your batteries are camoflauged in what looks like a big water bottle, or inside the pannier bags. Your controller is on the top part of the rear rack.

You are a civil, "law-abiding" citizen of your community, you do not piss people off, you dont speed on the ebike paths, you only go as fast on the ebike as you would going all out pedaling. How/Why would they stop you?

So now you are on a recumbant bike that is powered. Naturally you go faster then upright bike. You will stick out in the fact you go faster. But in all other respects you hide the fact you are powered.

Yes pigs have quota's.

These are questions to ponder and come up with realistic answers for where you are riding.
How will they stop you?
How will they get your attention to stop?
Why would they be stopping you?
Do they stop many other people on bicycles?

You can realistically say you did not hear or see them, and ride away from them.
If they are on foot, and have a whistle - play deaf, blind, dumb if you are to get caught.
You were in your zone, biking away, did not see or hear them.
Remember to go where they can not go, so if they are in a vehicle, then you go on bike pathways, doubling back trying hard to run away from them. Again if you were to get caught, just say you are dry land training, in your zone, see/hear = no.

The key is to hide your gear, hide the motor, hide the battery, hide the controller.

You say you are in a nanny state, they are cracking down on ebikes.
Your job then is to frock with them!

 

[SaladFish]

Tell me this, you got an ebike with a 1000W hub motor in the back. Its completely covered by pannier bags hanging off the rear rack. Your batteries are camoflauged in what looks like a big water bottle, or inside the pannier bags. Your controller is on the top part of the rear rack.

You are a civil, "law-abiding" citizen of your community, you do not piss people off, you dont speed on the ebike paths, you only go as fast on the ebike as you would going all out pedaling. How/Why would they stop you?

So now you are on a recumbant bike that is powered. Naturally you go faster then upright bike. You will stick out in the fact you go faster. But in all other respects you hide the fact you are powered.

Yes pigs have quota's.

These are questions to ponder and come up with realistic answers for where you are riding.
How will they stop you?
How will they get your attention to stop?
Why would they be stopping you?
Do they stop many other people on bicycles?

You can realistically say you did not hear or see them, and ride away from them.
If they are on foot, and have a whistle - play deaf, blind, dumb if you are to get caught.
You were in your zone, biking away, did not see or hear them.
Remember to go where they can not go, so if they are in a vehicle, then you go on bike pathways, doubling back trying hard to run away from them. Again if you were to get caught, just say you are dry land training, in your zone, see/hear = no.

The key is to hide your gear, hide the motor, hide the battery, hide the controller.

You say you are in a nanny state, they are cracking down on ebikes.
Your job then is to frock with them!

I'll be riding around in 50km and 60km per hour speed limited roads for commuting and getting groceries. I'll be riding as fast as I can legally.

Police can put their lights and sirens on and follow me until I pull over. They can also push me off my bicycle. If I manage to escape the pursuit they could get a picture of my distinctive vehicle and find it locked up outside the local grocery store. then they can wait for me to show up and jail me for resisting arrest. I remember one case of a police officer pushing a cyclist off his bicycle for not wearing a helmet (ironic). I would not make for a very good fugitive, I'm too lazy.

Police push cyclist off his bicycle for not noticing police motorcycle lights.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-officer-pushed-cyclist-off-his-bike-in-sydneys-cbd-witnesses-say-20160113-gm5d3m.html

Upon seeing me traveling at 50km per hour on a strange laying-down vehicle they would undoubtedly want to check it out. Velomobiles seem to get this response from police. I'll need a speedometer to make sure I'm not speeding.

 

[markz]

....and camera's

the poo poo are power hungry, they like to puff out their chest while pissing the furthest, all while eating cream filled doNUTS! I hope they get the "speacial" sauce

They need to fill their ticket writing quota. The camera's ensure you get to bitch slap 'em in court.

 

[whatever]

just read through the thread, cant see anywhere mentioned how oz cops can test ebikes on the side of the road,
in the EN15194 related documents, they give a method for testing ebikes which involves measuring out a distance along the road ( cant remember what it is), riding the ebike full throttle along that distance and measuring time it takes,
simple formula gives you estimate of the max power.
It was discussed in the 200watt limit thread way back,
sorry dont have a link, you will have to search the 200watt limit thread to find it ( search my posts in that thread you should find it, if of interest), I brought it up a long time back.
So the cops can do a simple road side test, but I haven't heard of them using it here in beautiful oz.

 

[markz]

Then maybe for those who are paranoid, you can hit a wireless switch on your phone, bluetooth perhaps, that will severely limit the controller to within the oz laws. Fake pedaling can save your ass, because you could have super human leg power that spits out 2000W of super-hero strength, rather then Lance "Steroids" Legstrongs 200W.

 

[Hillhater]

just read through the thread, cant see anywhere mentioned how oz cops can test ebikes on the side of the road,.......

They wouldnt need to bother,
They could simply impound the bike for testing in a test center just like they did for the stink bikes.
But again, highly unlikely unless someone was doing stupid/reckless things in a public space.

 

[Jestronix]

25kmh wow, serious ! On a road bike ur pushing 45 to 50, hit someone and your not liable ? Even though you were overtaking round bends? It's not just ebikers being silly, I've seen my fair share of pedal powered speed demons running wide on bike paths. Or not indicating intent to turn etc

Solution is simple, all pushbikes to be plated for insurance, place enforceable speed limits on bike paths, done!

No fussing with dyno,s or legal mumbo. No plate or insurance cop a fine I'd be more than happy to pay rego and insurance, he'll we might get some nice bike paths and bridges built making it safer for all of us.

Wanna be a knobber and unleash 10kw on the bike path? Watch ya speed, simple. I can grab a BMX and pull a wheelie all the way to work and this is fine? Do this on an ebike and it's out with the deamon eyes !

Helmet, insurance , speeding fines. Done.

 

[LockH]

Hehe.. ES Bible "Search found 4 matches: +stupid"... in this thread...