How do police test compliance of ebike (Australia)

[Punx0r]

I'm sure I wasn't the only one wondering where this paranoid, self-justifying, morally-outraged rant had come from. Then all is revealed

my last moving violation was about 5 years back or so. A failure to comply with the seatbelt mandate.

Seatbelts save lives, end of. Not wearing a belt can endanger others (back seat passengers, especially) but mostly it prevents harm to yourself, just like a motorcycle helmet. If only the individual is at risk, they should be free to choose for themselves, right? Well that's where people get told to do something they don't want to because it's good for everyone, good for society. The benefits for most people outweigh the minor inconvenience. There are exceptions for where the inconvenience is not minor.

Many pro athletes would forgo safety gear if they could as it would give them an advantage. Can't let them all individual choose for themselves, though else they all end up worse off.

You are, of course, free to do as you wish on your own property. But in public we are expected to follow the rules of society. Either comply or choose not to, but then accept the risks of defying those rules.

 

[DRMousseau]

Seatbelts save lives, end of. Not wearing a belt can endanger others (back seat passengers, especially) but mostly it prevents harm to yourself, just like a motorcycle helmet. If only the individual is at risk, they should be free to choose for themselves, right? Well that's where people get told to do something they don't want to because it's good for everyone, good for society. The benefits for most people outweigh the minor inconvenience. There are exceptions for where the inconvenience is not minor.

"Seatbelts save lives, end of.",..... would you like some more Koolaid perhaps??? Kinda like the nuclear bomb has saved lives. Right????

Aside from "the bomb" and wars (maybe),.... no greater loss of life can be attributed to anything of greatness beyond motor vehicles. Shouldn't they be banned? outlawed? perhaps a unilateral reduction in numbers??? or maybe jus restricted to 250W or a reasonably safe speed? With seatbelts of course. Or do we have "an exception" of major inconvenience that has apparently come up in the last 100yrs or so of human existence???? (mmmm,.... come to think of it, the bicycle has been around jus slightly longer than the automobile's 100yrs or so.)

You are, of course, free to do as you wish on your own property. But in public we are expected to follow the rules of society. Either comply or choose not to, but then accept the risks of defying those rules.

Well, sorta,..... and our e-bikes are doomed by a society that blurs laws and ethics, simply because they don't know the difference. Have some more Koolaid,.... expect your ebike to be confiscated in New York, and we'll see how that 250W compliance law works out in OZ. "No Dorthy,... your not in Kansas anymore. Now give me those slippers, and have some more Koolaid."

Shameful really,... bicycles and e-bike have been so important to many economies, not to mention the environment, human health, and other great benefits.

 

[Sunder]

Such laws were contrived purely to make a criminal of basically responsible law abiding folks like you and I!!!!

Meanwhile, in Pakistan, where laws forbidding honour killings were just passed, there is a group of village elders saying "Such laws were contrived purely to make a criminal of basically responsible law abiding folks like this council of elders!"

Ya what??!! Of course everyone who is doing something wrong, is made a criminal when that wrong doing is made into a crime!

SO WHAT if my bike is 1500W, capable of 40mph,..... I still will not pass within 2metres of ANY pedestrian while on a bicycle!!!! Nor will I pass or approach ANY pedestrian at a speed greater than a brisk walk, unless I am at a safe distance to do so!!!! I extend similar courtesies to other bicyclists, e-bikers, and motorists!

So what? Well, society decides that it doesn't want to accept that risk. Hey, I can promise not to drink too much and drive, but do you want vehicular manslaughter laws repealed? Do you as a society want to take the risk that not everyone knows how much drink they can cope with, to keep the rest of us safe? How do I know that you won't do what you say 99.999% of the time, then one day, you see a girl that is just your dream lady. I don't know what floats your boat, but imagine she's perfect. On your old scale, she's a 15/10. A bit of object fixation, and BAM. Into her ugly friend you didn't see standing next to her at 40mph.

I don't like the laws. Call me a hypocrite, I have in the past ignored the laws to a small degree - but I understand why the laws are there, and I was willing to accept the consequences of being caught.

If you don't like the laws, you have two choices - accept the consequences of ignoring the law, or lobby your representative to change them. You live in a democracy. You are blessed in that regard. But of course, if the number of pedestrians, who feel threatened by being passed at 40mph with only 2m buffer, lobby politicians to keep them banned and more strictly enforced exceed the number of riders wanting faster legal machines - well that's the cost of being blessed to live in a democracy.

 

[Kneelb4ZOD]

I too have endured the joy of "flying" from a bicycle,... fully 8' high and 27' distant!!!! No helmet, no wall, but the concrete was no less softer upon impact. I limped my damage bike home and skipped out work for the day. I've also endured various motorcycle collisions,... including that of "picking up" an "unexpected" running deer at over 50mph!!! Dead deer,... collected up motorcycle and continued to work. Never has my helmet been a factor in any incident, even when rendered unconscious in one head-on collision (although nearly busted my jaw!).

I've also had a lot of other accidents. And yes, a helmet didn't make a difference in a good number of them, but it definitely made a difference that time. For example, I was hit by a motorcycle while I was on a bike, and we both wiped out. I wasn't wearing a helmet, but I was able to slide and roll.

In this case, where I didn't run into something head on, or land on my head, it obviously didn't make a difference. Nobody is saying that every time you crash, you will land on the top of your head. But if you do, it's a very sensitive area. If you hit almost anywhere else, you can walk away with scrapes or broken bones as you have done. If you impact the top of your head, there is a great chance you won't be walking away. That's why it's always best to wear a helmet in my opinion.

I do think that generally the effectiveness of bicycle helmets is not what it should be. To get actual protection you really need something like a motorcycle helmet. A bike helmet provides no protection for your face or jaw, and shifts around too easily. So while it provides good protection if you hit the top of your head like I did, overall that only translates to about 50-75% reduction in serious brain injuries. That's why when I choose to wear a helmet while riding an ebike, I wear one designed for motorbikes that provides protection from all sides.

 

[Jestronix]

I just about chocked to death behind a fumy gas powered bike today! Surely those thing are illegal as and it was easy doing 2-3kw land.

 

[Cephalotus]

I do think that generally the effectiveness of bicycle helmets is not what it should be. To get actual protection you really need something like a motorcycle helmet...

Cratoni Vigor

http://www.elektrorad-magazin.de/test/ausprobiert/ausprobiert-s-pedelec-helm-cratoni-vigor

A helmet for (German) speed pedelecs that have motor assistance up to 45km/h. You do NOT need to wear them (or any helmet) on a speed pedelec, but this could be an acceptable solution....

Bicycle helmets are design for impact speed up to 20km/h.

 

[Cephalotus]

It is an interesting quirk that it is possible to go 40km per hour with 200w motor without pedaling with the right aerodynamics but the 250w motor is limited to 25km per hour.

I think that a 200W Limit in combination with no Speed limit is a fantastic law.

Those that claim that they can "easily ride 45km/h without any motor on a road bike" can do 55-60km/h with a 200W Motor. And it's legaly a bicycle. What's not to like about this?

I would trade any of our rules against the 200W plus unlimited speed = bicycle rule. It's a dream.

 

[Cephalotus]

If it can be determined that a bicycle will prevent someone charging the government $50,000 for heart surgery then yes, a $1,000 bicycle saves the government $49,000. It is more complicated then that but a cost analysis is done and surprise, surprise healthy people are cheaper and more productive than diseased people.

There have been several studies in Northern Europa about the cost effect that cycling has on the health care System. The benefit of a (moderate) cyclist is more than thousand Euros per year and person...

http://www.adfc.de/gesundheit/gesund-bleiben/studie-radfahrer-und-das-gesundheitssystem/jeder-radfahrer-erspart-dem-gesundheitssystem-1200-euro (in German)

This invludes accidents and longer lifetime on the cost side and less illness on the positive side.

This is a WHO calculation of the average health benefit of a moderate City traffic cyclist over the average lifetime:

breathing more polluted air: -1 to -40 days
accidents: -5 to -9 days
workout health benefits: +3 to 14 months!

http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/kostenvergleich-rad-gegen-auto-das-velo-ist-sieger-der-herzen-a-753206-2.html (in German)

This is a 310 page study on the climate effect of pedelecs (in German)

http://www.transportation-design.org/cms/upload/DOWNLOADS/150916_Abschlussbericht_Pedelection_final.pdf

You can find an English abstract at page 7

http://www.transportation-design.org/cms/upload/DOWNLOADS/150916_Abschlussbericht_Pedelection_final.pdf

 

[Sunder]

Those that claim that they can "easily ride 45km/h without any motor on a road bike" can do 55-60km/h with a 200W Motor. And it's legaly a bicycle. What's not to like about this?

Physics... Physics is what is not to like about this.

You need 517w (Approximate - obviously depends on aerodynamic profile and quality of components) to go 45km/h.

You need 914w to go 55km/h

You need 1175w to go 60km/h

717w will only get you 50.5km/h

However, if you just want to go 45km/h anyway, you could ease up your effort to just 317w, and ride for more than twice as long.

At my fittest, I used to be able to sprint 45km/h for about 90 seconds. I could probably only do it for 10-15 now eBikes have spoiled me.

 

[KarlJ]

OK

Fun thread. Friend of mine got picked up by the boys in blue on his way home from my Friday night "Mens shed" - brew day also know as a pissup / BBQ.
His bike dual MAC8Ts + 12fets each + 2 packs on a 29ER "Hybrid" bike.

Q: "how fast were you going"
A: "I dont know " **Boys in Blue look directly at bike speedo**

Boys in blue : "you were flying"

Q: " Have you had anything to drink tonight"
A: " Yes ocifer , i was drinking homebrew and not sure of the alcohol content"

Boys in blue : You look hammered -blow in the bag

0.174 was the reading.

Skip through 20mins of lecture regarding operation of any road going machine whilst intoxicated.

NO MENTION of EBike top speed, available power etc etc.

END: Told to walk the bike home

CONCLUSION --- EBIKES ARE AWESOME!!!

I do apologise if this offends some readers and although i don't condone drink driving, folk have been riding bikes pissed since they were invented
the ebike is merely an inevitable extension of the pub bike and makes for far safer transportation than the use of motor vehicles.

 

[markz]

Is this really a true story?

I can see it happening, I really can. Problem with his bike was he was going really fast, and dual mac motors made the bike stick out. I am sure he was also blowing stop signs/red lights at cruising speeds.

 

[Hillhater]

OK, folk have been riding bikes pissed since they were invented
the ebike is merely an inevitable extension of the pub bike and makes for far safer transportation than the use of motor vehicles.

?? Not really.
Ignoring your own safety is not ok if it is in any way likely to affect others.
What if he fell off his bike infront of a bus full of schoolkids and got mashed under it...or the bus took avoiding action and hit an oncoming petrol tanker and the whole lot fireballed !
Not so amusing ! Even a solo accident requireing assistance from bypassers/paramedics/ambulance/ doctors etc etc is a pretty irrisponsible attitude...and then there is the psychological effects on family and friends etc.
Folk have been killing, murdering, torturing, others since time began, but we are supposed to be a developing civilised society attempting to eliminate these bad things from our world, so a little more self control and responsible behaviour might be needed all round.
Safe motor transportation when pissed is a Taxi !

 

[markz]

self driving ebikes

 

[Jestronix]

Looks like this bike will get the full test. Though I wonder how many other accidents reach the news.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-police-seize-electric-bicycle-involved-in-fadden-collision-with-10yearold-child-20170513-gw47o5.html

 

[TheBeastie]

Looks like this bike will get the full test. Though I wonder how many other accidents reach the news.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/act-police-seize-electric-bicycle-involved-in-fadden-collision-with-10yearold-child-20170513-gw47o5.html

Yeah I saw that too, I decided I wasn't going to post anything about it because I tend to be more of a conservative safety bloke when it comes to street riding.
I just saw this in the news today where a quasi-celebrity that the police force don't like getting investigated for their kids had an illegal motorized toy car on a quiet road, just shows you that if the police don't like you they can stick a pine cone up your arse in all sorts of interesting ways..
http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/celebrity-kids/roxy-jacenko-reportedly-being-investigated-by-police-after-posting-an-instagram-photo-of-her-children/news-story/c8a4af75acc85e288ee52b4fc8bfa25e

 

[dingoEsride]

because I tend to be more of a conservative safety bloke when it comes to street riding.

This should be a requirement for all riders or drivers of cars or in control of any moving vehicle, they should be taking due care to avoid things like this, this guy/girl is a clear idiot and probably couldn't control much at all let alone a powered bike

 

[Jil]

The Motor must have a "rated" continuous power of no more than 250w. To pass the rating, the test is EN 60034. As long as the rating passes (no overheating), the motor complies with EN 60034. There's no rule on how the rating should be chosen.

I agree with Sunder. The key here is "no more than" 250W when tested as per the procedure in 60034. 60034 establishes that the motor meets a given duty cycle at the rating given by the manufacturer (S1 - continuous in this case). The exact requirements of 15194 over-rule those the referenced standard (60034), it's just borrowing the established test method, which is common practice (and sensible to avoid pointless reproduction).

I've skimmed 60034 and can't find an explicit reference to what operating speed the test should be performed at, but since it's checking the manufacturer's power rating, it makes sense for it to also be at rated (nominal) speed.

I reopen this interesting thread.
Do you think it would be possible to get a Grin All-Axle certified as per this norm EN 15194 :2017 ? For a cargo with 250 kg max load, and 20" wheel.


It's refering to the norm IEC 60034-1 :



Question : a motor can reach different thermal equilibriums, depending on the load, and it can be very high and not sustainable (e.g. above 250°C). Up to what temperature is a "thermal equilbrium" acceptable ? Has it to be defined by the manufacturer (i.e. Grin) ?

 

[john61ct]

Zombie thread, but yes interesting.

Any real-world test in the field will be arbitrary and open to being gamed.

To effectively regulate categories requires pre-sale (import) certification and banning DIY builds and mods, harsh penalties especially on local vendors.

I would move if my location tried to do this.