Hub to Mid conversion for a trike - talk me out of it.

[ZeroEm]

by neptronix » Aug 13 2021 1:50pm

Zero, i get your point about small wheels being a different story on a full recumbent versus my semi recumbents.
I guess my recommendations assume you care about comfort and have full suspension already. And aren't lying on the back wheel.

Suspension makes a much larger difference than wheel diameter, but if you don't have suspension, it's a very good idea to not shrink your wheel diameter.

A 22" bmx rim with a moto tire might be as comfortable as a bike tired 26" though because of all the extra rubber acting as a suspension in itself.

I agree with everyone about torque, speed and efficiency of a small wheel. Have 20" wheels on the front of my trike, no suspension and 26" wheel with suspension on the back. The difference between the two over the same bumps is easy to compare. Can hardly feel the rear wheel and the fronts are frightening they hit so hard at speed. I think you have encountered this. I'm planning on keeping my trike on the trail system in town and thinking about going to a 24" wheel. For the road have ordered a bike with a 29" front wheel and a 20" rear. No suspension at all. :lol: So i'm stressing over the 20" wheel again. The math is in favor for the small wheel so I may try and see. I can always add suspension or larger wheels. I want to ride distance at 20-28mph.

 

[ccihon]

So - I said I was going to leave well enough alone and make a few tweaks - wrong again. I have now completed the conversion to BBSHD mid-drive from LUNA. No more tailbox with a hot controller and a mess of wires - I guess I could have used that to heat my lunch as I traveled. Anyway, the whole thing was fairly easy, and is a whole lot simpler than the old set up.

What I've discovered on the early rides:

- It's fast - have not pushed it in 48t/11t wide open, but it is easily as fast or faster than the hub motor, which was pulling 1500W.
- It's quiet - this surprised me - sure you hear the chain etc, but the motor out there on the boom is isolated better than the rear hub, which was already quiet-ish with a sine wave controller.
-It's solid - use a custom Utah Trikes ally torque arm kit that keeps the thing from spinning on the BB, and also lets it hang below rather than in font of the bracket - slightly more stealth, definitely stronger
-=Weight balance is now forward - needed a little front end tweaking
-Love having back my 9 speed cassette and losing the triple I never used up front - gearing very flexible with 48t front 11-32 back

I'm tweaking with the BBSHD programming a bit, and awaiting a stronger idler (old one is aftermarket, but has many miles and not as strong as could be). I have brake sensors as well as a shift sensor, and the small color display mounted bar-end for easy reach. Will report back as I gain more expereince with this set up.

By the way, the 9C clone and the KT sinewave 45A controller etc are soon up for sale - will be putting them up on Endless Sphere, pm me if you are looking for a set up like that. You can even have the heated lunch box! Would be awesome fast/cheap on a lighter bike.

 

[ZeroEm]

Looks good nice and clean. :thumb:

 

[ccihon]

You had liked my previous built so well I kinda felt bad doing this! I think you said something like "don't hang a wart on the nose" - it hangs straight down, so it's more like a booger anyway

 

[ZeroEm]

I like to try everything. You trike just has a clean look to it. No hanging wires, every neat and put away. You make me think I have misjudged mid drives. Let us know how it works out after a few months and thousands of miles.

Need to clean mine up. Some things were left undone and never got back to them. Going to try out a 24" wheel would be a good time to put things in order.

I like that the middrive hangs down, it worked out well.

 

[dogman dan]

Proof that ES folks can't leave a good bike alone. But glad you like it better. I never meant to knock the mid drive idea, I just thought you had the wrong controller for a neatly installed system.

 

[ZeroEm]

I don't get out much and never seen a thumb throttle like that or is it just the mount?
Does it ride better with the weight shifted forward?

 

[MadRhino]

A reversed trike does speed better with the weight on the rear. With most of the weight on the front it starts drifting with low acceleration force. Hard braking is also an issue. With 2 good front brakes it has much better braking power than a bike. You don’t want the rear to lift and stop the trike on your crank.

 

[ZeroEm]

y MadRhino » Sep 04 2021 5:20pm

A reversed trike does speed better with the weight on the rear. With most of the weight on the front it starts drifting with low acceleration force. Hard braking is also an issue. With 2 good front brakes it has much better braking power than a bike. You don’t want the rear to lift and stop the trike on your crank.

I don't have that problem, i'm 270 lbs, have a leaf motor in the rear wheel. My battery (30 lbs) is between my front wheels. One time down a steep hill to a stop sign, could feel the rear wheel get light and lift one time.

 

[markz]

With the thumb throttle my hand can start to tingle so I have to wave it in the air like a retard while I am riding to get the blood circulating again. I have never tried a normal throttle whether full or half twist but I sure do want to try one out. On my long rides and trying to get the generic controllers cruise control to kick in which is harder then you think on a bumpy path I been thinking I should build a resistor network to dial in the speed I want and just have 2 or 3 buttons to press for a specific speed.

As for md vs hubs - Mid drives cost to much money. I've been thinking about converting a hybrid Trek to a p.a.s. to force myself to work out and break a sweat yet save battery power for extended distance but all I have on hand is a Cyclone coaxial 4kw which is to much power and also which I barely even used, which means I should sell it locally. Buying a BBSHD is to much money so all thats left is a cheap $200-300 1kw kit from the usual suspects Amazon/Ebay/Yescomusa but I'd need to have a temp sensor that will cut power because I burn those kits up to easily. Already burnt 2 of them, and besides all that there is no real need for anyone anywhere to be buying a mid drive unless you have steep hills that you have to go up because you cannot bypass them.

 

[MadRhino]

y MadRhino » Sep 04 2021 5:20pm

A reversed trike does speed better with the weight on the rear. With most of the weight on the front it starts drifting with low acceleration force. Hard braking is also an issue. With 2 good front brakes it has much better braking power than a bike. You don’t want the rear to lift and stop the trike on your crank.

I don't have that problem, i'm 270 lbs, have a leaf motor in the rear wheel. My battery (30 lbs) is between my front wheels. One time down a steep hill to a stop sign, could feel the rear wheel get light and lift one time.

Big guys sure have enough weight on the rear, with a DD hub especially. With a BB drive and a smaller rider, the trike is much more likely to be light on the tail.

 

[ZeroEm]

Good point. :lol:

 

[ccihon]

I weigh 235 and the battery is a big one mounted behind me, so putting the motor up front did little to shift the center. I can jam on the brakes and it is not going to lift the rear wheel.

While the BBSHD was cost;y in relative terms, the upgrade hub drives and controllers I was considering were similar in cost.

It's a standard thumb throttle turned 90 degrees, using a mount that Terra Cycle makes that replaces the bar end shifter pivot pin with a 22mm dia. small handlebar extension to mount such things.Perfect location and easy to use, though I don't use it much.

 

[MadRhino]

...I have to wave it in the air like a retard while I am riding to get the blood circulating again...

You would like a full grip throttle just like motorcycles.

As for md vs hubs - Mid drives cost to much money.

Yep, but they don’t require as much battery to make torque.
You have one already. You can build a bike that suits your needs with the motor that you have. 4kw is nothing for a big guy. It is the geometry of the bike that wasn’t suitable for the power. When you will have the proper geometry, and wheelbase especially, you will soon find that 5 hp is not that much after all.

 

[markz]

Yeah the bike I would like to have next is a frame with the battery behind the seat post but my guess is those frames are bso's from generic builders. I used to dislike Enduro/Stealth/Suitcase frames but I am growing to like them now. Wheelbase needs to be the same as a Townie Electra with 26" wheels to be able to fit in a transit bus bike rack. 5hp is just under 7kw and would be fine for the 2% of the time I'd like to ride steep hills but nothing long and steep to require mid drive. I will surf Google Maps and try to find some hills. A MAC geared motor would be nice, but again dropping more money and remember I havent had much luck with tubes and spokes lasting on a rear hub with my weight but each person has their battles and I can see Chalo chiming in and saying build with quality parts, lace properly and I did all that, follow his advice to the T, its just all that 375lbs all on the rear axle and not even riding hard.

Yep, but they don’t require as much battery to make torque.
You have one already. You can build a bike that suits your needs with the motor that you have. 4kw is nothing for a big guy. It is the geometry of the bike that wasn’t suitable for the power. When you will have the proper geometry, and wheelbase especially, you will soon find that 5 hp is not that much after all.

 

[MadRhino]

I weigh 235 and the battery is a big one mounted behind me, so putting the motor up front did little to shift the center. I can jam on the brakes and it is not going to lift the rear wheel.

While the BBSHD was cost;y in relative terms, the upgrade hub drives and controllers I was considering were similar in cost.

Of course big guys are helping the rear to stay on the ground.

The DD hub and controller that you can buy for the cost of a BBHD, would make your trike a monster. It would top about 60 mph on the flat, 45 mph climbing 15%. Gearing of a mid drive can give you torque that the motor doesn’t have, but on the top gear it is left with the true power of the small motor and it is not much.

Mid drives are expansive for the power that they have, but not for the riding experience that they give. They are just a different feel, and can optimize the efficiency for the task.

 

[markz]

I never liked having a battery on the rear because the weight imbalance
Whether on the top of the rear rack or on the sides of the rear rack
You have to place the battery where you can, so a flat pack module of an EV car might be good for the sides of the rear rack with a protective layer but like anything the battle is in how do you mount it, weight distro and how do you not damage the rack mounts. My bike falls down every now and then.
Easiest always for me was a roll of duct tape to a battery inside the triangle, then zip ties and hose clamps. Next best for weight distro was a battery case like a grintech on the top of the top bar though it might not feel good at first but you get used to it.
For me I carry lots of stuff, usually hanging off the handlebars in bags. Chargers, 2 tubes, tools, fishing rod, tackle box, winter hat, gloves. My u-lock hangs between the brake lever and handle bars. When I do carry a chain lock, its wrapped around the handle bars and kept tidy with electrical tape. So the weight adds up and that weight is usually all on once side, but I ride casual speeds 32kph. But I do need to change that somehow, figuring a welded on basket handlebar, or an Easy Rider style roll attached to the handlebars that can be easily detached for some gear and utilize rear rack with a hard case pannier as I do ride single track and having a bag the branches destroy the bag. Like I said I dont ride technical, but I ride deep bush, tall grasses, branchy area's, river mud, river rock so exploring trails so have to turn back sometimes if its to steep a trail which mid drive with proper weight distro could easily ride up, like if I had a Trek or Specialize mid drive bicycle that wasnt so wimpy and never seeing anything of any significant power without resorting to some back alley engineer, like Cyclones Elite frame which could use a 5kw+ motor mounted like a Treks Bosch motor.
Everything is about choices, pro's and con's to each mid drive or hub motor.

 

[ccihon]

I weigh 235 and the battery is a big one mounted behind me, so putting the motor up front did little to shift the center. I can jam on the brakes and it is not going to lift the rear wheel.

While the BBSHD was cost;y in relative terms, the upgrade hub drives and controllers I was considering were similar in cost.

Of course big guys are helping the rear to stay on the ground.

The DD hub and controller that you can buy for the cost of a BBHD, would make your trike a monster. It would top about 60 mph on the flat, 45 mph climbing 15%. Gearing of a mid drive can give you torque that the motor doesn’t have, but on the top gear it is left with the true power of the small motor and it is not much.

Mid drives are expansive for the power that they have, but not for the riding experience that they give. They are just a different feel, and can optimize the efficiency for the task.

45 -60 mph would be a lot of drama on this trike and would not want to do that. It is stable at the 35 it can currently do. I also wanted to avoid mounting a big controller, and find the mid drive a tidy simple system. My previous hub was pulling over 1500 watts and performed similarly. Different feel, I agree... Mid prompts more shifting, and ride therefore prompts more pedal input, which for me is a good thing

As to battery mounting, lots trickier on trike, key is to keep it low.

 

[ZeroEm]

by ccihon » Sep 05 2021 6:13am

MadRhino wrote: ↑Sep 04 2021 9:22pm

ccihon wrote: ↑Sep 04 2021 8:38pm
I weigh 235 and the battery is a big one mounted behind me, so putting the motor up front did little to shift the center. I can jam on the brakes and it is not going to lift the rear wheel.

While the BBSHD was cost;y in relative terms, the upgrade hub drives and controllers I was considering were similar in cost.
Of course big guys are helping the rear to stay on the ground.

The DD hub and controller that you can buy for the cost of a BBHD, would make your trike a monster. It would top about 60 mph on the flat, 45 mph climbing 15%. Gearing of a mid drive can give you torque that the motor doesn’t have, but on the top gear it is left with the true power of the small motor and it is not much.

Mid drives are expansive for the power that they have, but not for the riding experience that they give. They are just a different feel, and can optimize the efficiency for the task.

45 -60 mph would be a lot of drama on this trike and would not want to do that. It is stable at the 35 it can currently do. I also wanted to avoid mounting a big controller, and find the mid drive a tidy simple system. My previous hub was pulling over 1500 watts and performed similarly. Different feel, I agree... Mid prompts more shifting, and ride therefore prompts more pedal input, which for me is a good thing

As to battery mounting, lots trickier on trike, key is to keep it low.

High on the back rack, is a no go for me. Put my battery up there during the build to try out. That test failed 15lbs head high, well you can imagine.

Might try a mid drive some day, would fit with having suspension. The unspring weight issue. Maybe just get a hpvelotechnik custom build.

Built a platform between the wheels. It's close to perfect. Weight low on the two wheels help keep the trike from tipping. Wanted to try 1.35 front tires. Now I can slide my front tires in a turn, no tipping. Going back to 1.5 and later will get wider rims and go to 1.75 maybe 24"'.

Can ride relaxed >20mph, my speed limit now it 28mph not bad but i'm alert. My trike is setup for 33mph, start getting stressed watching the road. As ccihon knows higher speed is not hard to do, just loses it's fun factor.

I have two batteries for my trike and planned to make a pair of mounts below the seat as far forward but still clear the front wheels. But I have my trike over loaded with me on it so have been waiting to lose some weight.

What I would like is a longer and few inches wider trike, (I know the turning radius) as low as possible with a short travel suspension with a high payload.

I have looked at the Ti trikes but they sit to high. I need to be almost laying down way I can ride with out pain.

A hpvelotechnik would fit the bill.

 

[ccihon]

HP Velo FS26 is my dream ride.... Awaiting the lottery. SteinTrikes are nice also.

The TerraCycle battery mount for recumbents is a good battery solution for me... My pack is almost 15 pounds too and is solid mounted to this. It is a big tube clamp, a cantilever, and plate.... Very adjustable, anodized thick aluminum.

 

[MadRhino]

A trike has room to make a floor, ideal for those who need batteries low. Leaning trikes like batteries higher, for fast riders especially. Every build had its own pros and cons. Leaning, suspension, long wheel base, fairing, luggage room, steering type... lots of possibilities are making the job of building a trike worth careful planning.

 

[ZeroEm]

by ccihon » Sep 05 2021 1:16pm

HP Velo FS26 is my dream ride.... Awaiting the lottery. SteinTrikes are nice also.

The TerraCycle battery mount for recumbents is a good battery solution for me... My pack is almost 15 pounds too and is solid mounted to this. It is a big tube clamp, a cantilever, and plate.... Very adjustable, anodized thick aluminum.

I need to check in on them a pair of them may come close to fitting what I need. Just don't need both batteries but would let me do a 80 mile ride at speed without worries. When i'm not greenway riding like to get out and ride to the next towns.

by MadRhino » Sep 05 2021 2:05pm

A trike has room to make a floor, ideal for those who need batteries low. Leaning trikes like batteries higher, for fast riders especially. Every build had its own pros and cons. Leaning, suspension, long wheel base, fairing, luggage room, steering type... lots of possibilities are making the job of building a trike worth careful planning.

All types for all type of riding. Sad part is I got lucky and my trike is perfect for the way I ride the greenways, could be 5 mph slower. Do want something for the roads outside of the City. A bit more speed and comfort for the long roads.

I think it was Adam that built that box around his trike frame, I liked that.

 

[ccihon]

Just a few updates on my experiences so far:

I noticed in shifting the weight forward by adding a motor up front as far as weight could go, the trike handling was impacted. The front end could be induced by rough roads to oscillate or "shimmy" a bit. From previous experience, I know that extra weight forward of the front wheels can cause this. I didn't feel it at speeds higher than 13mph (rides with the wife) or so as I think the wheel rotation has a naturally stabilizing effect, no did I feel it on smooth roads or if I gripped the bars tightly. The fix turned out to be the addition of a simple motorcycle steering damper tying the tie-bar to the frame through a sliding hydraulic damper.

I had done something similar on a trike that handled poorly years ago - this one was a bit trickier given the angles involved, but it worked out well. The damper kit included a bar clamp for a 1" frame tube that I did not use, but rather swapped out one I found online intended for a motorcycle fork, I think - 51mm diameter fit the 2" tubing of my crossbar perfectly. I used an extended bolt to allow the pivot rod end to mount on the tie-rod pivot. The whole thing is out of the way and has two positive effects - no shimmy at all, and stable tracking even "hands-off" The resistance force of this unit is very small at normal steering speeds, so it adds no effort to normal steering. It's not a way to fix big handling or alignment problems with trikes, but works perfectly for my purpose here.

I love the mid-drive power, which is ample - I did snap a chain link, and attribute that to pulling too stiff a gear ratio up an incline, along with too sudden an input of motor power. Live and learn...I also have made sure my chain alignment is correct. I still await the availability of a stronger chain idler on the power side, though the composite one is holding up well so far.

 

[PeteCress]

... the addition of a simple motorcycle steering damper tying the tie-bar to the frame through a sliding hydraulic damper.

My ICE goes into a speed wobble in a heartbeat when I traverse a ripple in the pavement and you have me going on the steering damper idea.

Can you cite the make/model?

 

[ccihon]

Damper is this one...

33cm (13") Motorcycle ATV 6 Way... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FD9CWR7?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

Clamp is for 2" tube but there are others sizes and colors available....
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Universal-Motorcycle-Steering-Damper-Fork-Frame-Mounting-Clamp-Bracket-/194295112631?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

I also needed to raid the parts bin for m8 bolt, nut, lock washer... Whole thing about $45

There are many damper options out there at various prices. I did something similar on a Terratrike years ago.... Its frame was simpler and was at a right angle to the boom .... Same idea.

https://www.kevinatkins.org/terratrike/chuck/index.html