Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

[John in CR]

jansevr,

That looks great except the wire. Don't come straight of the side, because someone simply knocking your bike over could cause wire harness damage. For a proper drip loop, bring it out to the rear and then to the front hidden and protected by the frame for a nice clean look too.

 

[jansevr]

good call, i new i was going to have to change that...i just got lazy towards the end of modeling =P

 

[Bluefang]

I defiantly have to say i like bigger wheels on the front of the bike simply due to chance hit on pot holes etc and better quality tires and range if i stick to 17" fronts. A second hub in the front is going to cause you to have accidents unless you restrict its power output alot...like a max of 20%. Regen will be great but not really worth it. Read up on AWD bike systems and most road ones seem to only do 5-15% traction to the front wheel. Helps a huge amount at preventing highside wipes is all i remember.

Tho i wonder how hard it would be to build a bike with one hub in wheel and then another mounted in the bike with a chain between them.......hmmmm Maybe i should get caught up in all this building race bikes people are doing now. Can build a single motor bike to begin with and then go bonkers on it later

 

[John in CR]

Unless top speed is your thing and something well past 100kph, then the only way you'll need 2 is if you load HubMonster down with too much weight. Then you're talking about more battery just due to fat and the other motor, and you've lost that ebike "feel", where the rider is the majority of the total weight and gone into full fledged electric motorcycle territory. It's not that there's anything wrong with that, it's just more expensive and different.

Going with a 17 up front does make selection a lot bigger, but I haven't been able to make a 17" look good to my eye with the rear on my motor. Unless you use a fender or other body detail to mask the small diameter tire, to run a 17" front you'll probably need to go with the 150/70-13 tire on the motor. That's a full 2" larger diameter wheel.

Another consideration about 17's is weight. Maybe that's because all I can find around here is full moto duty stuff, but while looking for wheels for my mid-drive rig going to a 17 vs a 16 added 3-5kg to each wheel.

Also, stay tuned, because one of our buddies down under takes delivery maybe today of a HubMonster that he plans to lace into a rim. I have some ideas myself as to how to pull that off fairly easily, but that's uncharted territory for me, so let's see what he does.

John

 

[jansevr]

two motors would probably only be after i started with one and ran it like that for a while.

my reasoning behind 2 motors:

better efficiency and cooling? if i am running at high speed (50+mph) for long periods of time - splitting the load between two motors should significantly increase the overheat time as well as the overall efficiency due to a lower load for each motor?

also, like bluefang was saying - increased traction; especially at higher speeds. regen would have its advantages as well.

John - i cant remember, does this motor have regen?

 

[xenodius]

All BLDC motors are capable of regen with the right controller. Unless you have a large load, I'm not sure dual motors would increase efficiency. Also, with a linear track vehicle, dual drive is awfully sketchy. Losing traction in the rear is usually fine, when it's snowy out I skid my rear on my bicycle around every corner just for fun. But losing traction on the front... that's almost always a crash. Loss of traction is common during acceleration. The better bet is probably going to be more amps in the rear. And possibly ventilation, if you really need it. I think the better bet will definitely be rear-only drive. Less weight is probably the better way to get the acceleration performance you want.

 

[John in CR]

I don't know. I'd have a tough time ever disparaging a 2wd bike. My first ebike was fwd and the only traction issue was on takeoff. I'm no riding expert but the powered front felt more stable to me through curves. All 2wd ebikers swear by it. It's been a dream of motos for nearly a century, and some liked the highly compromised 2wd implementations pulled off. With hubmotors 2wd is a natural and simple, but of course you couldn't run the front at as high a power due to the natural tendency of the front to become unloaded during acceleration.

Don't confuse the way an unpowered front loses traction being pushed through a turn and friction forcing the front around. With a powered front wheel, it pulls the front through the curve and a loss of traction would be part of getting used to 2wd and not something forcing an appointment with the ground. Imagine 2wd drive on a motocross bike and how chewing up the mud with the front wheel too would be a huge advantage and help you stay upright throwing dual rooster tails of mud through the nastiest of turns.

Sure it would take special tuning considerations, but there's about a 0% chance that adding power to the front would be a negative. We'll see how Toby does with his laced Hubmonster. A front Hubmonster would be overkill, but a MidMonster has more room in the shell for adding spokes, and that might be a perfect teammate for a Hubmonster on the rear.

OTOH, when I think 2 HubMonsters, I always think 3. A leaning delta trike with triple Hubmonsters each properly fed with a nice high voltage and made slippery through the wind so it could hold its own against just about anything that didn't have at least 10-20X the price tag. Of course a 2 on a sleek recumbent will do the same thing, but my wife won't get on 2 wheels, so I need to do a trike to get the perfect headrest I've dreamed about for so long.

 

[xenodius]

I don't know. I'd have a tough time ever disparaging a 2wd bike. My first ebike was fwd and the only traction issue was on takeoff. I'm no riding expert but the powered front felt more stable to me through curves. All 2wd ebikers swear by it. It's been a dream of motos for nearly a century, and some liked the highly compromised 2wd implementations pulled off. With hubmotors 2wd is a natural and simple, but of course you couldn't run the front at as high a power due to the natural tendency of the front to become unloaded during acceleration.

Don't confuse the way an unpowered front loses traction being pushed through a turn and friction forcing the front around. With a powered front wheel, it pulls the front through the curve and a loss of traction would be part of getting used to 2wd and not something forcing an appointment with the ground. Imagine 2wd drive on a motocross bike and how chewing up the mud with the front wheel too would be a huge advantage and help you stay upright throwing dual rooster tails of mud through the nastiest of turns.

Sure it would take special tuning considerations, but there's about a 0% chance that adding power to the front would be a negative. We'll see how Toby does with his laced Hubmonster. A front Hubmonster would be overkill, but a MidMonster has more room in the shell for adding spokes, and that might be a perfect teammate for a Hubmonster on the rear.

OTOH, when I think 2 HubMonsters, I always think 3. A leaning delta trike with triple Hubmonsters each properly fed with a nice high voltage and made slippery through the wind could hold its own against just about anything that didn't have at least 10-20X the price tag. Of course a 2 on a sleek recumbent will do the same thing, but my wife won't get on 2 wheels, so I need to do a trike to get the perfect headrest I've dreamed about for so long.

Hmm, I guess when you put it that way it doesn't sound so unsafe-- I've spent quite a bit of time on dirtbikes, and bicycles... losing traction on the front is bad in both cases, but only because your rear end tends to catch up with you, leading to a awkward gravel sandwiches. If the power ratio to each wheel was appropriate, and the rear end didn't run ahead of the front, then I'd be okay with it Heck, I'm the guy who wants to do a FWD trike. 2WD would offer better acceleration, at the very least... and potentially much better regen braking. For off-roading I can definitely see the usefulness... but, I still feel like accelerating quickly through a turn and spinning out the front tire could result in fall-slippage if you don't have good traction. Maybe that's not an issue when you have a rear wheel pushing you forward too?

Triple hubmonsters! Wow. That would be crazy. I can't imagine! It'd be an expensive ride for sure, but you could sure put on a show. Another advantage to electrics; nobody knows you're drag racing them until you've already passed. If only there was a way to do traction control? You'd probably want to run a pretty large battery pack with all those motors. Nice thing about building a trike, it's easy to make room for cells. Sinopoly makes some "tall" screw-terminal prismatics, I believe they are $76 shipped per 60ah cell. 141x36x221mm, 1.8kg per cell. Fantastic energy density for LiFePO4, and about 10% lighter than any other prismatic I could find in the same size. I feel like it'd be super easy to build a pack out of prismatics, just stack, wire, screw, and solder with a BMS. 3C continuous, 5C burst, 3C fast-charge. Hmm. Come to think of it, you might need A123/lipo, 300 amp bursts might not be enough for you

I had some concern about doing FWD in my trike until I realized that as a short-wheelbase trike, the front carries much more weight than the front of a linear upright bike. Plus, it would lend to much better regen braking. I still can't stop thinking about it. Although, if I get stuck here with no place to build my trike over the next few years, I might have to settle with buying a steel BMX and electrifying that.

If your wife won't get on 2 wheels, would you install a lean-lock? I'm not sure exactly how I'd do mine yet, but I'm erring on a disc, Avid BB5/7 and a locking lever like this: http://www.bikeberry.com/alloy-clutch-lever.html
I'm going to have to work pretty hard (and build a great first EV for as cheap as possible) to convince my wife that it's worth it in the long run...

 

[Bluefang]

John, have you spun it up at 120+ volts yet? Whats the no load, or are you still modding the case?

 

[John in CR]

John, have you spun it up at 120+ volts yet? Whats the no load, or are you still modding the case?

The paint dried and as I was going to reassemble it I turned the bearing and one is bad. I had only checked the bearing in the cover the other day and it was fine, but the one in the bell housing was pretty notched in the rotation. I think I must have scarred the races trying to manhandle the motor into the drops 9 months ago. I did quite a bit of banging, because the motor I built SuperV's swingarm around has the flats on a much different plain, so fitting HubmonsterHE, whose flats are much closer to parallel, was frustrating.

I had forgotten about the different plain thing wrt to axle flats, so after opening up the flats to larger than Hubmonster's 15.5mm, it still wouldn't go on and the why wasn't registering. Out came the heavy banging tools to force it in, and it simply wouldn't go. The side with the prematurely bad bearing is the one that got all the forcing, both banging and off axis pressure. After about 15min of Harold getting a kick out of my skyrocketing blood pressure it dawned on me, and a little more grinding on the axle and dropout then it went on.

Now I'm paying the price and have to go get new bearing in the morning and press it in before I can spin it up. Then I get to figure the wiring. This will be a little harder than when new, because I don't have the luxury of knowing which set of 5 halls goes with which set of 3 phase wires, and the damn thing will actually spin up well with the wrong set, and least MidMonster does. My son got a 1.9A no-load with MidMonster at 80V, and that's with the rim and tire. I can't wait to see Hubmonster's, since I forgot to check it when new without the rim. With a tire it does about 3A, but the tire move a lot of air.

I'll also get to see if my new attempt at exhaust slots blows air without interior blades. I cut over 120 slots as exhaust blades. I hope it works like the slot/blades on my little centrifugal blowers, and I think it may since I have similar tip velocity despite the much lower rpm. Pics to come.

John

 

[Bluefang]

Sounds great I have plenty of time for you to test things first before i play

My guy is coming tomorrow finally to pay for my green mini monster bike which will start some interesting times for me. I may be ordering a few motors from you for my next project I really wish someone would figure out how to build a cheap powerful 200-300V BLDC controller, doesn't have to be fancy, just high voltage and around 20-30kw peak.

 

[John in CR]

Sounds great I have plenty of time for you to test things first before i play My guy is coming tomorrow finally to pay for my green mini monster bike which will start some interesting times for me.

That's awesome. I hope you figure out how to build them fast and cheap, and turn them right over, because I know that even if you tried other motors, you'll come back to the Monsters.

I may be ordering a few motors from you for my next project I really wish someone would figure out how to build a cheap powerful 200-300V BLDC controller, doesn't have to be fancy, just high voltage and around 20-30kw peak.

You and me both brother. Now that we have high hubmotor Kv's with good enough steel to handle moderate non-hub rpms at good efficiency, all that's lacking is the controller side.

Another way to look at it though is with HubMonster, we may not be able to get the motor itself much below 15kg, once you get into high power you need so much battery weight that the motor weight is almost inconsequential. If you want to keep it sealed then the extra mass is a plus, because they're efficient enough that you can do a 15-20km one way commute at performance levels that kick the crap out of almost anything on the road, and the motor doesn't get saturated with heat until the end of the ride.

Your post over in the motor forum really go me thinking about a dual motor rig with one in wheel and one mid-drive with 1:1 gearing. Even at 23s, so you're safely under the 100V limit of uber economical controllers, then you pump 120A limits on each of 4 controllers, and you're looking at real sportsbike performance up to 120kph as long as you don't get crazy with the weight.

Then you tie in the CA3 thermal limiting and become accustomed to what it takes to get the temps to build up, and it's possible to have an awesome commute every day with absolute durability. Much of the time you use performance and speed just enough to stay safely ahead of everyone. Then you still have a reserve for the times when a gasser has the nerve to pull up along side of you, so you can deliver a lesson in why electrics are so much better that ICE.

I cracks me up how we still have this little secret to ourselves, where a non-technical, non-wrencher like me can so easily build a vehicle that blows a 100 years of gasser development right off the road.

Wait till you guys see what HubMonster32s does with this fat bastard aboard.

John

 

[Harold in CR]

with this fat bastard aboard.

Don't I remember something about losing 20K or so, quite a while back ?? :lol:

I need a scale to weigh bowl blanks for shipping, and, MIGHT get one I can ride.

 

[John in CR]

with this fat bastard aboard.

Don't I remember something about losing 20K or so, quite a while back ?? :lol:
I need a scale to weigh bowl blanks for shipping, and, MIGHT get one I can ride.

Yes, but then came the holidays and quitting smoking. I just walked over to the scale with me, flops, shorts and the skin left after the 10mph crash 2 weeks ago and the scale said 270lbs, 123kg, so if I got nicknamed FB for Fat Bastard after a freshman 10lb in college at 190lb (86kg), I certainly qualify for FB at 270lb. That is at least until the fly-weight wannabees and their crap efficiency similar weight hubbies pull along side of me, to which FB and HubMonster have a 2 word response..."adios amigo".

That's ok. The smart money guys understand the tremendous advantage of higher efficiency, so a 6 months to a year from now there will be many examples of guys doing what used to be impossible with hubbies. As that happens the price will correspond with performance, which is only fair when you're talking about the highest efficiency and highest power hubbies driven by the most economical controllers.

John

 

[mistercrash]

John, can you provide the dimensions of that motor without the rim? What's the diameter of the motor and what's the diameter of that flange around it? Also of what metal is the casing and flange made of? Aluminum or steel.

Thanks
Ray

 

[John in CR]

Hi Ray,

Yeah, it's going to be a tight squeeze for you to do up a 10" scooter rim to fit, and you'll probably even need to trim the rim flange to make it work, but there is room. The OD of the motor shell where it mates to the rim is right at 203mm, but it is tapered at the joint to match a taper on the AL rim for perfect centering, so not a part you can build in advance. My caliper couldn't reach to measure exactly, but the OD of the rim mounting flange seems to be 233mm.

That is all steel. The only AL on the entire motor is the bolt on side cover, and maybe the center hub between the axle and lamination stack.

The easiest way to do what you want may be to start with one of the old style 2 piece 10" scooter rims, and modify it to simply bolt each half of the rim to each side of the motor's rim flange. Even easier, and safer since it's one piece and tubeless works could be one of these if the dimensions work. http://scootrs.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=733. I just saw one at a shop the other day and will go back with my calipers to measure, because I'd love to run a Hubmonster in small diameter 10" scooter wheel. This beast with a smaller wheel would have even more staggering performance.

John

John, can you provide the dimensions of that motor without the rim? What's the diameter of the motor and what's the diameter of that flange around it? Also of what metal is the casing and flange made of? Aluminum or steel.

Thanks
Ray

 

[mistercrash]

Ok the inside of the rim on my scooter has a diameter of 220 mm IF the heavy ring that serves as the rotor is removed. That rotor ring is welded to the rim in four spots, it would be difficult to get it out of there but it's doable. That would leave a 220 mm hole in which hubmonster could fit if its rim mounting flange is trimmed down a bit. Then I would just need to bring it to some welder's shop and explain what I want and have that guy (or gal) weld hubmonster inside the 10 inch rim. But you know as well as I do that a motor welded to the rim can be a PITA sometimes.

Those Vespa rims look promising, lets hope they can fit somehow. If you could source 10 inch rims that would bolt on hubmonster's flange with minimal mods, I would send Paypal money your way in an instant.

 

[John in CR]

Ok the inside of the rim on my scooter has a diameter of 220 mm IF the heavy ring that serves as the rotor is removed. That rotor ring is welded to the rim in four spots, it would be difficult to get it out of there but it's doable. That would leave a 220 mm hole in which hubmonster could fit if its rim mounting flange is trimmed down a bit. Then I would just need to bring it to some welder's shop and explain what I want and have that guy (or gal) weld hubmonster inside the 10 inch rim. But you know as well as I do that a motor welded to the rim can be a PITA sometimes.

Those Vespa rims look promising, lets hope they can fit somehow. If you could source 10 inch rims that would bolt on hubmonster's flange with minimal mods, I would send Paypal money your way in an instant.

You'd want to make it bolt on, not welded on. Too close the the magnets and much harder to mount a tire. Yes it's a tight fit for bolts, but out at that radius a number of small bolts with allen heads is fine. I use small cheap bolts on my factory rim, because it's takes 12.

I'll see what I can find this week, and I'll send an inquiry in to the factory about high power motors with 10" rims. Maybe they have something old or done as a prototype sitting on the shelf....or maybe they have a higher power version of MidMonster. It comes with a built on 10" alloy rim, and there's lots of room for more laminations inside the shell. It's stator is slightly smaller in diameter and length than Hubmonster, but there's room to go to greater length making it have the potential to nearly match the big boy. That could work for you.

MidMonster could probably work for you too, but I worry about the combination of hills and your size, because unless you're only a fair weather commuter, I'm leary of opening a hubbie to the salt on the roads. It's 100% AL shell (only the axle, magnet ring, and stator lams are steel) makes it a simple to ventilate motor due to the squared corners and thick material. Being all alloy metal bits don't stick to the magnets and cut slots won't rust, so my new slot method of ventilation would be quick and easy with a grinder....just cut and cool each slot as you go and brush it out at the end, so done in about an hour.

A vented MidMonster will work fine for you. It would handle a pair of the 80A controllers we have without a doubt, and while it's not quite up there with Hubmonsters, in a smaller wheel it will be pretty darn close. It would take a decent moto or sports car to beat you to 75kph, and you'll be slaughtering any gas scooter or electric scooter and most cars....I mean running rings around them. You'd need good enough batteries though.

I haven't promoted the MidMonster at all due to the built on 10" rim, other than those with no rim that we brought in for mid-drive use. The "Mid" in MidMonster is for mid-size, not mid-drive. They're just nearly ideal for a mid-drive with a hubbie. You'd save a few kg and save some $, and the rim is already done for you, so it's a great option for you if ventilated is acceptable with my straight forward instructions.

Let me know the OD of your current wheel, so I can me absolutely certain it can work for you before proceeding. What's the spacing on your swingarms, and I'd like to see their structure to have an idea of how much beefing up is required, if any?

John

 

[mistercrash]

Ventilated is not acceptable to me here in Canada. Riding in winter with the slush and salt is not good for a motor with holes in it. I experienced it last winter with poor results. So it would be Hubmonster or some generic 4 to 6 kw 10 inch motor available out there, you know all those 85% efficient motors that are probably more like 65% efficient. I would prefer your Hubmonster fitted in a 10 inch rim. Those Vespa rims look promising, I see they don't have the deep groove in the middle that facilitates putting the tubeless tire on so going to a motorcycle shop might the only option to install a tire but not having that groove gives a lot of room in the middle. From what I measured on one of my 10 inch rims, without that deep groove, there would be something like a diameter of 240+ mm of free space in the middle.

I'll take measurements of my swing arm, diam. on my wheel with tire and swing arm spacing this weekend and get back to you.

Thanks
John

 

[Bluefang]

Mistercrash, The Mid-monster that john also has "available" with a 10" rim will still be good for anything you can throw if your planing to top out at 100km/h or 60mph. Its probably more then capable of running 6 or 7kw for extended periods and 20kw peaks which will be capable of making your scooter into a death trap

The hub monster is designed for scooters about 3x the size and weight of yours, the mini-monster is designed for your sized scooter. The mid monster is just the performance version of your scooters motor so i don't think you will have to worry about anything. John is not really selling how great these motors are, I just received my hub-monster that i am putting on a dirt bike over the next month so i can tell you this, its insanely dense and brutal looking even compared to the Mini-monster i have already played with. Once i got the mini sorted it shrugged of acceleration runs of 14kw and constant draws of 3kw+ and more with out getting warm at all, vented yes, but the mid-monster will be able too do that and more with out getting hot. The hub-monster i will be trying too do 20kw peak in a race type setup with a sealed motor, should get nice and hot but over 10min hopefully doesn't trip the thermo cut out.

Either way it will still be cheaper to get one of Johns motors as they will all beat the snot out of generic 6-7kw motors.

 

[mistercrash]

Thanks bluefang,
I would like to go with the midmonster if possible, but John hesitates to sell me the midmonster set up because I'm a fat bastard :lol: My scooter weighs 220 pounds, I weigh 250 pounds. And the terrain where I ride is hilly. Add to that that I would like a top speed of close to 80 km/h and yeah... I can understand why John can be a little hesitant

Mostly what I do is city riding, lots of stop and go and lots of hill climbing. So I need a motor that can haul 470 pounds at 50 to 55 km/h all day under these stop and go and hill climbing conditions without getting hot, and do it without holes drilled in the end caps or oil slushing inside.

Is that too much to ask? Hey if midmonster can take me to close to 80 km/h top speed (which I wouldn't do often) and give me the torque I needed for city riding then that would be one less headache for me because it has the 10 inch rim I need.

What do you say John? Are you nervous to sell me a midmonster or should I wait to see if the big boy can fit?

 

[John in CR]

Let me see how the current limiting function of the CA3 works with a high powered rig first. As long as it doesn't result in a pulsing thrust when it's in limiting mode then that would be the way to go. I sell performance motors, so I'm not really interested in getting pigeon-holed into selling escooter replacements unless it's for performance.

To make matters worse, it's now not just a big load and hills, but it's the sneaky motor heater...stop-n-go traffic. I think the torque throttle function of the CA3 will help with that, though it is unproven and not even discussed by anyone else.

It's not about me being nervous, but I know that in 20min I can melt any sealed hubbie if I wanted to, and a lot of people ride in that manner. The only reason drastically more motors aren't burned up is that they're pulling 100lb less load than I run, and almost 200lb less than what MisterCrash runs.

At a minimum I need the wheel diameter to make any kind of recommendation, but some testing time in addition would be even better. Speed it easy. Even hills are easy.

 

[Bluefang]

Hey John

Got the motor and already started a build with it, mega impressed with the packaging. After been sure the other bike was sold i went out and bought all the parts i need for this build so its moving along pretty fast as everything arrived at around the same time. Will be very interesting to see how quickly i can get it up and running. Its got a fairly small tire on it as all i could get with the tread i was after was a 130-60-13 so hopefully that does not work against me trying to get it to a Flat Track raceway.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=49912

 

[John in CR]

Bluefang pulls off a record time for a build (about a week) and claims the $200 first prize. Here's a video of his maiden voyage at only 50% power running I think just a pair of 12fet controllers. Despite a 195lb bike he's just touching the tip of the iceberg. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=49912#p740206

 

[John in CR]

Just my luck, I resort to bribery and the first guy up and running gets videos of one run with a bad wiring combo and other with popped 12fet controllers he was trying to push to 150A each. Oh well, he'll fare much better with a pair of 24fets. Too bad he clipped the motor connector off so we can't send him plug and play.

The puts some guys on deck for the second place $150 prize.

My extra Hubmonster arrived yesterday. I want to run it on something very comfy and at least semi-recumbent that I can make quite aero and with a skin of my solar modules, so it almost never needs charging....in other words a slick and slippery road rocket where I get to feel pushed back against a seat, not handlebars trying to rip out of my hands.

There's no reason being green shouldn't be fun. 8)

John