Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

[The Toecutter]

Do you have any web links to the patents for this motor?

I'm wondering if it would be possible to build/sell a smaller/lighter/not-nearly-as-powerful motor using the 6 phase design that would use a freehub and 8/9/10sp bicycle cassettes without running afoul of the patents, perhaps something weighing in around 10 lbs? I know there would be a market for such a thing if peak efficiency of over 90% could be achieved if designed within the aforementioned parameters, especially if such a thing could make upwards of 10 kW peak for a few seconds and perhaps 2-3 kW continuous.

 

[John in CR]

Do you have any web links to the patents for this motor?

I'm wondering if it would be possible to build/sell a smaller/lighter/not-nearly-as-powerful motor using the 6 phase design that would use a freehub and 8/9/10sp bicycle cassettes without running afoul of the patents, perhaps something weighing in around 10 lbs? I know there would be a market for such a thing if peak efficiency of over 90% could be achieved if designed within the aforementioned parameters, especially if such a thing could make upwards of 10 kW peak for a few seconds and perhaps 2-3 kW continuous.

The 6 phase winding doesn't do anything for efficiency. Despite the need for better hubbies, the manufacturers won't make them due to cost. Low pole count for lower iron core losses mean more stator steel and better quality steel to make the torqu, which also adds weight to the stator. The low pole count also means more expensive curved magnets are needed too. These motors shine at higher rpm than common hubbies as well, which means smaller diameter wheels, which aren't as accepted on bikes.

Sure the design could be generally copied in a smaller motor, and use a 6 phase winding of the 24 tooth stator 20 magnet motor, but the application would be to do the much smaller motor and lighter high efficiency outrunner to use as a mid-drive. I plan to do exactly that with some of the 12 of the smallest version motor they produced that I have. It's a 50mm wide 150mm diameter stator, and I'll get them rewound to a Kv of 30-35 rpm/volt, resulting in a 8kg or so motor capable far more power than you're talking about, especially with centrifugal flow cooling I've used with great success...but...it will be mid-drive only.

 

[The Toecutter]

Despite the need for better hubbies, the manufacturers won't make them due to cost.

Such a wasted opportunity on their part. Better quality steel combined with thinner stator laminations(say 0.2mm) and curved magnets would only add about $100-200 or so per motor... yet the benefits would be enormous for performance ebike applications or applications where reduced iron losses are important(such as e-assist HPV applications that use hub motors but are designed to be ridable with the motor off). It could increase by 50% or more continuous power and peak power per unit of motor mass.

Once the iron losses are low enough to allow a general/broad operating efficiency of the motor around 90%+, when operating with a dead battery, there should be almost no noticeable disadvantage in a human power application in terms of mechanical efficiency versus the use of a NuVinci hub or an SRAM/Sturmey Archer/Rohloff internally geared hub(which are around 91-95% efficient mechanically).

These motors shine at higher rpm than common hubbies as well, which means smaller diameter wheels, which aren't as accepted on bikes.

Another advantage is this allows the use of lower voltage battery packs and controllers for a given amount of performance(provided sufficient power can be provided by the selected system components), which could reduce build cost depending on the build, possibly by more than the extra cost of the more efficient motor over the baseline when considering both the use of lower voltage controllers/chargers/battery packs along with increased efficiency.

Sure the design could be generally copied in a smaller motor, and use a 6 phase winding of the 24 tooth stator 20 magnet motor, but the application would be to do the much smaller motor and lighter high efficiency outrunner to use as a mid-drive. I plan to do exactly that with some of the 12 of the smallest version motor they produced that I have. It's a 50mm wide 150mm diameter stator, and I'll get them rewound to a Kv of 30-35 rpm/volt, resulting in a 8kg or so motor capable far more power than you're talking about, especially with centrifugal flow cooling I've used with great success...but...it will be mid-drive only.

That should be interesting! A mid drive won't work for my application unless I'm willing to always pedal at 120+ cadence and never put any serious foot torque in it. Bicycle chains can only take so much abuse and I've already broken my share of them in a strictly human power application, so I definitely don't trust them with motor+foot power applied...

I await videos of this mid drive when you have it ready. I've always been a fan of your builds precisely for the fact that they haul ass.

 

[John in CR]

$100-200 is more than their cost for the entire ebike hubbie. While you and I believe there is a market for a high priced, high quality, high power ebike hubbie, it's too small a niche due to the oppressive ebike laws in much of the world. In the meantime, suckers will continue to pay high prices for what are really just very average motors. Hindsight tells me that I should have sold the high efficiency hubbies for $1k and up, instead of making them available at cost. Maybe that would have generated enough volume to justify production runs of the motors I'd like to build.

By mid-drive I mean motor in the middle of the bike. Only if I built an ebike capable of pedal bike speeds would I run motor power through the pedal chain. I hate maintenance and bike chain simply isn't up to the task of significant power driving normal size gears on the rear wheel. I've run one reliably at 5kw peak, but that was a single speed with a 48t-25t gear reduction. With a tensioner it was extremely quiet too. Any future build would parallel the pedal drive and motor drive separately, but we have a 5kw limit before plates and registration is required, so I generally don't bother with pedals except on some builds to have a variable place to put my feet. I do like pedals over pegs in the comfort department for that reason.

 

[SHiFT]

Well, I’m subscribed lol

No-pedal mid-drive is my jam.

Do you have any web links to the patents for this motor?

I'm wondering if it would be possible to build/sell a smaller/lighter/not-nearly-as-powerful motor using the 6 phase design that would use a freehub and 8/9/10sp bicycle cassettes without running afoul of the patents, perhaps something weighing in around 10 lbs? I know there would be a market for such a thing if peak efficiency of over 90% could be achieved if designed within the aforementioned parameters, especially if such a thing could make upwards of 10 kW peak for a few seconds and perhaps 2-3 kW continuous.

The 6 phase winding doesn't do anything for efficiency. Despite the need for better hubbies, the manufacturers won't make them due to cost. Low pole count for lower iron core losses mean more stator steel and better quality steel to make the torqu, which also adds weight to the stator. The low pole count also means more expensive curved magnets are needed too. These motors shine at higher rpm than common hubbies as well, which means smaller diameter wheels, which aren't as accepted on bikes.

Sure the design could be generally copied in a smaller motor, and use a 6 phase winding of the 24 tooth stator 20 magnet motor, but the application would be to do the much smaller motor and lighter high efficiency outrunner to use as a mid-drive. I plan to do exactly that with some of the 12 of the smallest version motor they produced that I have. It's a 50mm wide 150mm diameter stator, and I'll get them rewound to a Kv of 30-35 rpm/volt, resulting in a 8kg or so motor capable far more power than you're talking about, especially with centrifugal flow cooling I've used with great success...but...it will be mid-drive only.

 

[Scootiggy]

@John in CR: Do you have any 3-4kW 6-phase 72V controllers for the HubMonster with regenarative braking still available?
Thanks!

 

[cheapcookie]

Hello I got one of these, does anyone know how to wire the halls? And which set is for which phase?
heres a picture.

blue=hall
red=5v
purple=hall
white=hall
black=gnd

Is this correct?