I did a gun-control petition

No, it's not lunacy, it's why our second amendment was written. And our founding fathers were weary that this new country would fall to tyranny too; it's not hard to find quotes from our founding fathers supporting gun rights.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government"

-- Thomas Jefferson, 1 Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

"The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good"

-- George Washington

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."

-- Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-188

Oh, and for intercontinental bonus points:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

-- Mahatma Gandhi
 
Nep, of course it is lunacy.

Lesss is arguing that if the U.S. government decides for some irrational reason to start a civil war they won't bother crushing the opposition. Instead they will allow the people they want defeated to have a chance at winning - that's the underlying rationale.

It's like a competitive chess grand master challenging an average chess player and purposefully handicapping himself so that the person he challenges has the ability to defeat him. Except the loser of the game then dies.

It's like an average basketball player taking on Kobe Bryant in a life-and-death pick up game but Bryant willing decides to wear a blindfold.

Historical documents aside, there is zero chance that the equivalent of cap guns could be a match for the U.S. military, which the U.S. would of course use, if it wanted to start a civil war.

I will tell you who starts a civil war but then decides not to use their best strengths, strategies and weapons - no one. That's who.

Edit: I don't see the relevance of referencing an extract of a static constitution that has no relevance to modern-day America. As an aside, I also don't think Gandhi is the best person to be quoting as a moral authority due to his racism and sex offences.
 
You understand government very well. Bravo. :mrgreen:

I'm just saying what the intention was - not a ludicrous idea to me, but i agree that it might sound ludicrous today; but that doesn't make it good reason to further widen the power gap between people and government. You could make that argument for removing all our guns and all our weapons because they are equally ineffective against government.

I think the original intent still holds and is still worth fighting for to the bitter end even if you are losing.
After all, it's is all the concessions we have made with our liberty over a long period of time that got us where we are today - a police state that bullies the world around with a good chunk of it's citizens incomes, while treating us like crap compared to other countries such as yours.
 
I agree with allowing most people to have guns, though I could never support handgun and semi-automatic weapons.

The problem with the U.S. Constitution is that it is little more than a historical document at this stage although that could change in the future allowing people to vote in referendums. No one can live in the past, no one can live in yesterday never mind over two centuries ago.

Taken at face value, I don't agree with your last paragraph, Nep. It is never worth fighting to the bitter end - assuming this hypothetical bitter end involves gun-fire against the proletariat-crushing government who have decided to wipe out dissenting citizens. :mrgreen:

Living is always preferable to dying. Once your dead you can't do anything. That's it. Your removed from the equation. Better to walk away and surrender than to die at the government's hands. One life - one chance. That's all we should assume.

Obviously, I doubt that is what you mean. :mrgreen:
 
Joseph C. said:
StudEbiker said:
Miles said:
What a great individual liberty to have. Ownership of a semi-automatic weapon....

As the greatest atrocities committed in the history of the world have been committed by governments against their own populations that were unable to effectively resist, yeah, I'd say it is a great liberty to have. :wink:

Do you honestly believe having a few million guns would stop a country with the world's most sophisticated military if it truly desired to wipe out obstinate citizens?

I don't understand where this delusion comes from it just seems like a poor excuse to keep ridiculous armaments.

They'd be a greater chance of the world ending next year than a military complex possessing nukes, aircraft carriers, drones, submarines, the stuxnet virus, tanks and 1.4 million personnel being stopped by pea shooters. They might as well try and defend themselves with bows and arrows for all the good it would do them.

The North Vietnamese, the Afghans, and the Iraqis seemed to do okay with the same kinds of weapons we are talking about against the same military you are talking about. :wink:

Having the weapons and using the weapons are two different things all together.

Guerrilla wars and wars of attrition are fought all the time all around the world with varying degrees of success. There is also a doubt that much of the current military would target Americans even if an American administration was inclined to do so since (fortunately) most of our military still believes in our Constitution and not in the perversion of our country being sold by the current crop of yahoos running it. :wink:
 
Joseph C. said:
The problem with the U.S. Constitution is that it is little more than a historical document at this stage although that could change in the future allowing people to vote in referendums. No one can live in the past, no one can live in yesterday never mind over two centuries ago.

It is only a historical document because it's been treated as such for the past century or so. We have collectively forgotten what tyranny was like and forgot why it was important. Modern democrats and republicans even mock it. There's nothing in our bill of rights that, if we followed to the letter, would make us old fashioned though. It would make only make us the freest nation on earth again.

Man, that would be awful :lol:

The long term trend is towards more freedom. It's nanny states and police states that are old fashioned, and marked for extinction.

Joseph C. said:
Taken at face value, I don't agree with your last paragraph, Nep. It is never worth fighting to the bitter end - assuming this hypothetical bitter end involves gun-fire against the proletariat-crushing government who have decided to wipe out dissenting citizens. :mrgreen:

That's not what i mean particularly, i mean fighting the war for public opinion and in the ballot box. ( which is pretty futile admittedly )
But there are millions of folks ( a lot of them veterans ) who have openly expressed interest in doing exactly what you are talking about. I'm not one of those guys. I don't even own a gun. I'd leave this country first, and stop being such a loyal taxpayer.
 
Lesss is arguing that if the U.S. government decides for some irrational reason to start a civil war they won't bother crushing the opposition. Instead they will allow the people they want defeated to have a chance at winning - that's the underlying rationale.

I've said nothing of the kind.
The arm of enforcement of the government that is responsible for interacting with the public are the police forces.
When the gov decides to strip away freedoms it will be the cops that do it.
They won't start with the military, they'll use people that are only too eager to assault members of the public.
.
Here is a website that tracks military style raids on US citizens http://www.cato.org/raidmap
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]Q2br0C72KTo[/youtube]
.
http://www.businessinsider.com/mari...-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10
.
http://greycoast.wordpress.com/2012...for-prison-inmates-and-crowds-demanding-food/
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[youtube]g3KzHQ_F3pk[/youtube]&feature=youtu.be
.
http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/jeremy-marks-home-raided.html
http://www.pixiq.com/article/photographer-with-lawsuit-against-la-sheriffs-dept-detained
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/19/duncan-roy-lawsuit_n_1988973.html
http://www.thenewsstar.com/article/20110928/NEWS01/109280323
http://www.katc.com/news/broussard-police-officer-arrested-on-sex-charges/
http://reason.com/blog/2008/12/06/gotcha
http://socialistworker.org/2012/08/08/still-no-justice-for-aiyana
http://www.courthousenews.com/2011/11/03/41176.htm
http://rt.com/usa/news/swat-internet-evansville-bolin-898/
http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/07/18/48482.htm
http://www.610wiod.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104673&article=10155554
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_d7d979d4-f4fb-5603-af76-0bef206f8301.html
http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktla-miss-nevada-sheriffs-lawsuit,0,352315.story?hpt=ju_bn6
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/...come-out-with-your-hands-up-120755199.html?dr
http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2011/07/08/podcast-show-49/
 
Just received this spam email. The usual paranoid-conspiracy-crap......
The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.


The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn't work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.


Newtown is the U.S.A.'s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.


It's always the same people behind it - the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers' employers - the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people's freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.


The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.


Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn't be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton's body.


The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.


Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.


Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.


Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don't fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.


All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country - Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans' love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.


Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.


If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.


From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.
 
Next, they'll get some psycho to shoot up a neo natal intensive care ward with an assault rifle. So what? That many abortions happen every day around here and nobody cares. Between the media and entertainment industry's propoganda who needs conspiracy theories? It's obvious to anyone but a sucker what is going on, and there's one born again every minute in this country. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing. Maybe your bobbies don't need to carry guns either, since you don't have access to them. (See, I don't have any business telling you that now; do I?)
 
Poor america. Fear, paranoia, fear, obesity, fear, ignorance, fear and Guns. The land of the scared, home of the gutless.
 
Gow864 said:
Poor america. Fear, paranoia, fear, obesity, fear, ignorance, fear and Guns. The land of the scared, home of the gutless.


This is true for most, not all. Some here live properly, without fear.

Every one of the greatest atrocities performed involving guns was done as a result of government orders and poor disillusioned confused souls following them. Statistically, this number of children being killed is less than the +-error range on body counts when governments use guns. Even against our own population (like Waco texas and dozen of other examples).

Armed citizens absolutely can hold off its greatest threat to them (its own governments disillusioned order followers). We've seen examples of this throughout history repeated ad nauseum. It has nothing to do with the citizens having superior weaponry, it has to do with the human factor of an army being made of humans, who eventually tend to wise up to being ordered to kill there own people and turn on the order givers once enough atrocities cause the brainwashing to wear off a bit.

Classic recent large scale example being the collapse of Soviet Russia.
 
liveforphysics said:
...Every one of the greatest atrocities performed involving guns was done as a result of government orders and poor disillusioned confused souls following them. Statistically, this number of children being killed is less than the +-error range on body counts when governments use guns. Even against our own population (like Waco texas and dozen of other examples). ...Classic recent large scale example being the collapse of Soviet Russia.

QFT... sadly, the examples of the atrocities of sovereign states within their borders are near endless... IMHO this fact needs to be realistically considered in this debate. One cannot ignore the recorded history of mankind with respect to the flawed/failed decisions of men "running" governments... I wish it weren't so, but it is... it is what it is. Our forefathers saw this day and wrote protections into the Constitution. The articles and the amendments are there for a reason. We need to consider and understand that precious Constitution in the framework of recorded history.

Edit: add interesting article just published in pravda... it is worth the read
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/
 
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