I need help deciding

7bobw

1 mW
Joined
Aug 22, 2008
Messages
19
I just found this forum last week and really like it and would like some information. I have been looking at web sites for about a month and am getting more cinfused. I have 4 bikes. A Seven TI road bike that is really nice and I wouldn't change it. A MTB bike not so comfortable and cheap. A Bike Friday LLama that is really fun to ride and maybe change to an ebike. A custom built steel road bike built for touring and also is comfortable. This bike is strong and has front and rear brazeons, 9 speed Ultegra road triple, drop bars, 700c rims with clearance for 35's . I have used this with a BOB trailer and a tour down the Oregon Coast. I think this is the one I want to make into an ebike and would like a range of between 30-35 miles if possible with pedaling. I think I would like the battery on the rear rack. I would like a hub that is really freelwheeling because if I do go out and run out of battery I would still have a weay to get home. Where we live it is either up hill or down hill and the last 1/2 mile home is a 150' climb. I would like something middle of the road as far as equipment and then upgrade if I really like it. I am retired and would use this bike to run errands or a joy ride in the afternoon.
My questions are, which bike, (I'm thinking the custom steel bike), battery (which I think I would like mounted on the rear rack), battery (voltage and amps) to get 30 miles, controller.
Thanks for your help in advance.
 
Geared hub motors freewheel, and climb real good so that may be your best option. Those are Heinsman, bafang, and bmc. Top speeds of those vary by brand, but are generally slower compared to the big chyrstalite motors like the 5 series, somethimes sold as the Phoenix. A Ping 48v,20 ah battery is a real good choice giving a bit more speed than 36v, but not so much that things fry right away. 30 mile range is doable in flat terrain, but 20-25 might be more realistic in the hills, and even with the lifepo4 its best not to use 100% of the capacity on every trip.
 
Hi Bob. Welcome to the forum. My two cents, consider motorizing your Bob trailer. There are several on the forum, including myself, that have done just that. In your case, you could then hook the motorized Bob trailer to any of your four bikes just by adding a throttle and the Bob hitch up at the rear axle. Currently I also have a hub motor on the front of my recumbent with the battery on the rear rack. If my ride includes big hills or hauling camping stuff the Bob trailer gets hooked up for twice the battery capacity (two 48v 20AH LiFePO4's in parallel) and more power when needed.
 
Second the trailer option. Like Rassy said, you can put a hub motor, battery, and controller in the trailer, leaving all of your bikes unconverted except for a little throttle.

How hilly is your area? If that last hill at the end of your ride is the steepest, it's (only) a 5.6degree grade.

How fast do you want to go? 20mph? 25mph? 30mph? Faster? Your desired speed is a large component of your power requirement, and your required power helps to determine what motor, controller, and battery setup would be optimal.

When you say "really freewheeling", I think you overestimate the cogging torque on hub motors. For a Crystalyte 5-series, it's pretty noticeable and annoying, but I can still pedal my beast home at 12mph just fine. For a 4-series motor, it's what I'd characterize as noticeable but insignificant. If you're willing to ride a steel road bike, I don't think motor cogging torque will be an issue. Still, though, geared motors like the eZee and BMC have no cogging torque at all.

So, a few basics.

More current (amps) will give your bike better acceleration and hill climbing. More voltage will give you more speed. Both contribute to power; power in watts is amps x volts. A battery is usually rated in amp-hours (Ah) and volts (V). The energy contained, then, is measured in watt-hours (Wh), or V x Ah.

Do not confuse amps and amp-hours. Batteries can be rated for capacity and maximum current. Some batteries may only be 2.3Ah but can safely provide 60A (until they are very quickly drained). For your needs, you won't need to worry about maximum current (unless you find some really steep hills or decide you want to go 40mph). However, capacity in Ah is important.

Speed, grate of the road, and wind are the three most significant factors that affect how much power is needed (in that order). A most excellent calculator to determine how much power you need for a given speed (and vice versa) under given conditions is: http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm Play around with it get an idea of how much power you want/need. Note that the information from that calculator is "at the wheel" - you need to factor in motor efficiency, which under good conditions is ~80%.

A bike's efficiency is how much energy it uses (in Wh) to travel one mile, where lower is more efficient. You can easily calculate this by dividing the (efficiency-adjusted) power requirements (in watts) by the speed (in mph). I then usually factor in a 90% battery depth-of-discharge; that is, you don't want to depend on getting more than 90% of the rated capacity out of a lithium battery, as a good margin for error. Typically, on flat land, in the real world at 20mph you can get 20Wh/mile. At 25mph, it's more like 28Wh/mile, and at 45mph it's over 80Wh/mi. Going up hills drastically increases this, and going up and then down the same hill will change efficiency depending on a number of things (sorry, I don't have any real numbers for that).

So, to find how much battery you need for a given range, multiply your expected efficiency by your desired range for your needed energy capacity in Wh. Divide that by the battery's voltage and it'll give you your needed capacity in Ah. So, if you wanted to go 30 miles on flat ground at no more than 20mph (~20Wh/mi), you'd need 600Wh (20Wh/mi x 30mi). If you were to use a 48v battery (which is not a bad choice), that'd be 12.5Ah. Adjust as needed for your desired speed/range.

So, what questions are left?
 
I disagree about cogging force. Maybe its more for a brushed motor like I have, but I really find it hard to deal with on top of the 75 pounds my bike weighs when I have a problem with the system and ride home with the cogging. It does come in handy for limiting my speed down hills though. I do agree about putting the motor on the trailer, or maybe even a second motor on the trailer. I just have no experience with that so I shut up on it. I think a trailer could be built that would push a small car up a hill. Once you eliminate the balancing it on the bike problem, the sky would be the limit. Could even use an etek, or 3000 watt scooter wheels, the pocketbook would be the only limit. And peadling fast enough to keep from jackknifing.
 
dogman wrote:
I disagree about cogging force. Maybe its more for a brushed motor like I have
I mentioned this before, but my WE BD36 only cogs noticably when spun backward. In fact, I think because my total weight is greater, I normally have to hit my brakes when coasting down hills behind others riding non-assisted bikes. Anyway, if having to pedal with a dead system, just unplug the motor from the controller and the cogging should decrease.
 
Maybe I have weak legs at age 50. My BD36 really cogs when turned backwards. But I still really notice it forwards too. Last thursday I had a perfect storm of charger malfunctioned and the bus no showed when it broke down. That left me with 10 uphill miles to ride home on a 75 pound bike in 95 F weather. Once I got on the mesa and the grade became barely uphill, I was about shot from climbing the big hill. I found I could revive the bms tripped battery and get just enough watts without tripping to cancel out the cogging. Boy that felt good by then. Without the cogging I could just tolerate that last six miles to home. I guess it just depends on how far, how hot, and how tired you are about noticing cogging on the motor. Guys that like to just ride the bike and only use the motor to climb hills definitely like the freewheeling gear motors best. I only deal with cogging when I break down. I didn't know about the unplug the motor trick. I'll have to try that. I've noticed it cogs less if the battery is providing power to the controller, even if you don't have the watts for any throttle. On my bike, rider and bike weighing 255, I need a really steep hill to exceed 30 mph, but on the same hill, my road bike will hit 35 or 40. I think cogging increases when you get to speeds close to your motors top speed. I may be full of bull, but that is what I think I feel when riding.
 
Thanks for all the info. The trailer sounds good but when going around a corner does it feel like you are pushed outside on the corners? How well does it handle? Does anyone out there use the Bionx system? I like the percentage of assisted pedaling but would that work on a trailer because it senses the power through the chain?
 
7bobw wrote:
The trailer sounds good but when going around a corner does it feel like you are pushed outside on the corners?
My answer is no. I've used both two wheel and one wheel power trailers behind two wheel bikes. However, I am a 68 year old retired guy and am happy with speeds under 25 MPH. The nice thing about the one wheel trailer is that you lean it into the corner with the bike, whereas the two wheel trailer does not lean with the bike. I prefer the one wheel trailers because they follow the same path as the bike.
 
First, you need to decide if you still want to be a true cyclist when you own an ebike or you simply want an electric motorbike. What's important and I found out the hard way is that, when you stop pedaling on a custom or properly fit bike, your aches and pain that you don't get with the same bike suddenly will appear. You no longer have the pedaling forces to keep your body in equilibrium to the whole bike. Case in point is with my Dahon Mu SL. It's a super comfy bike when I pedal with motor assist at 95rpm cadence. But one day when the stupid Sun Race freewheel broke (literally cracked and it freewheeled all the way), I had to engage the throttle option of my Bionx system and the ride home was tiring and aching as I feel every single bump along the way.

If you simply want a powerful motor that can go fast and for longer distances without you pedaling or just occasionally so, you need to choose a bike that is upright and equipped with every vibration and shock absorbing devices (front shocks), gel seats with a suspension seatpost. Saddle won't work if you don't pedal that much. You emulate basically a motorbike setup. And that's it.. Think about your MTB setup and you will get what I mean. Your steel touring and Seven Ti are designed for real riding. If you plan to continue enjoying these bikes, you need to plan to ride them period, albeit with a motor installed.
By the way, The throttle option on any of these systems, except Bionx, gives you either on/off or semi proportional but not anywhere close to the real proportional finesse of the Bionx system. The proportional power of the Bionx system works with your bicycle gears to give you levels of assist within 1 assist group too (you have 4 levels)! Let's say you want to pedal at 95rpm on the flats and up the hill, you can switch your gearing to maintain same cadence while maintaing the same assist level, hence same speed! The assist level bar graph of the Bionx console will tell you if you're relying too much on the motor power. I've determined that as long as I keep the assist level to about 3 to 4 bars, this has an effect of saving on battery power, because it allows you to contribute some of your pedaling power or less of yours to the total power output for forward propulsion. Basically, your shifters can act as your power output selector or cruise control. If you run a set of Campagnolo or Shimano brifters or bar end shifters, the Bionx is superb.
No system so far has a strain gauge like the Bionx system that can measure your total cycling power output, which is the beauty of the whole system.. Just last weekend, I with my Dahon went out with my riding friends on regular bikes for a total of 65km (with 7 hills, one is an 8% grade), averaged 27km/h and at the end of it all, I still had 3 bars left, going to 2. I was still fresh at the end of the ride -- I can't say the same for the others though. And my system isn't a Lithium based system. It's 24V NiMH, the basic model! Just imagine if I have the Lithium option -- eyes rolling!!

If you plan to ride your bike with the motor assist, then you need to plan on equipping the motor system to the lightest weight bike possible. That was why I chose my Dahon Mu SL and kept my Trek carbon race bike as it is with a 17lbs Bionx system. Weight has no bearing riding on the flats, but it does when you climb hills. It's bearable climbing a 36lbs bike with motor up any hills, not so if you've got 20AH batts with a heavy 5 series Crystallite system and a heavy mountain bike with shocks. Hell, I've toured 8000 miles with my Bike Friday New World Tourist in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Oregon and Washingston and had climbed any imaginable and steepest hills loaded with camping gear, so 36lbs is nothing if your battery suddenly conks out on you. The Bionx motor does freewheel somewhat, but there is a slight noticeable resistance, the same resistance you get when you turn on a German made Schmidt Dynamo front hub with the light on. I have that on my touring bike btw.

The downside of the Bionx kit system is that, it is expensive relative to other systems, but it really isn't because it comes with a watts meter. A Cycle Ops Power Tap rear bicycle wheel can cost as much as $900 too! Secondly, it is not as powerful watts/price as to the other available systems out there and is not a great as a power on demand. Other systems can go up to 72v, but that's bordering on riding a motor bike rather than a bike. Besides, cars will have a tough time judging you because they can't understand why you can match their speeds when you're on a bike hardly pedaling.

As you would have probably noticed by now, I do ride with a Bionx system and I love it very much. For my purpose, it's clearly superior to anything out there in a view of a cyclist. And I've met other cyclists with Bionx systems installed and they all have exactly the same requirements as I did, that is ride the ebike like a real bike. Choose the Bionx system if this is what you want, otherwise the other systems will do well for you but on a mountain bike with shocks.
 
O. K. I decided on a Bionx PL350 and ordered it today. Because the dealer is only 500 miles away he says I should get it in 2 days. I can't wait. Thanks for the help in deciding and I still want to do a motor for my trailer but that will be later.
 
DahonElectric said:
First, you need to decide if you still want to be a true cyclist when you own an ebike or you simply want an electric motorbike. What's important and I found out the hard way is that, when you stop pedaling on a custom or properly fit bike, your aches and pain that you don't get with the same bike suddenly will appear. You no longer have the pedaling forces to keep your body in equilibrium to the whole bike. Case in point is with my Dahon Mu SL. It's a super comfy bike when I pedal with motor assist at 95rpm cadence. But one day when the stupid Sun Race freewheel broke (literally cracked and it freewheeled all the way), I had to engage the throttle option of my Bionx system and the ride home was tiring and aching as I feel every single bump along the way.

True, that. I found that out with my BMX. You get kinda sore with your legs in that weird position on the pedals without moving. Had to put the pegs on the front for a place to rest my feet, but it's good now.
 
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