I want an E-Bike but less time than $ whos building/selling?

[Brinley]

Hey there Endless-Sphere,

This is my first time posting a topic for discussion, but I've been ghosting the forums here for a few weeks now.

I originally came here with the idea of building a bike myself, with some help from friends. I toyed with the idea of getting a buddy of mine who welds for a living to make me a frame, started looking into home-made battery packs, and component options.

Very quickly I realized, like a number of other projects I've started in the past, I simply don't have enough time to devote to learning how to build let alone committing the physical energy to the task. Working 3 jobs, one for income, two for pleasure and attempting to throw a fourth hobby into the mix isn't going to work.

So I appeal to the masters of green energy solutions here at Endless-Sphere for the first time; build me a bike oh Tamers-of-Lightning-Horses!

I've seen a number of builds and I'm very open to creative input. My budget is $2,500.

If it's desired, I have someone who can weld up a frame to any specification. I have a guy who can whip up an adruino to run everything from speedo/odometer gauge to on-board diagnostics and even a keyless ignition with an RFID card in my back-pocket for a few bucks in components. The guy is a wizard with these little adruino boards.

You can PM me if you are interested.

Purpose of the bike: A daily rider to take me roughly 10 miles, but capable of 3x that on a single charge. Tops out at 40-50 MPH, I need it very quiet and unobtrusive. It needs to be a "stealth" E-bike for lack of a better description; something difficult to spot, for the uninitiated as a powered bike. Also, there are ALOT of pot-holes and such where I live here in Tampa Bay, FL. I think I'll need full suspension. Light as possible; 50-60Lbs would be fine I think, but not much more, alot less would be great. Also since it's Florida, the bike needs to be proofed against the elements.
Some specifications I will be looking for are:

Kill switch direct to link between the motor and battery
Thumb Throttle
Fenders (for rain water)
Full Suspension frame
Brushless Motor
Discreet Battery mount, preferred in the frame itself rather than on a rack
Removable and lockable battery
As close to invisible cable management as possible
Seat optional, I'll be getting a brown leather Brooks Seat and matching handlebars.

Style, going for an olden style to if possible, very modest and understates steampunk if possible. Originally was doing an E-boardtrack racer style bike, but came to find it was not going to work out for my needs to have a long-framed bike that looks like a motorcycle.

Anyone interested in taking this project on or have a bike that would fit the bill? There isn't really much of a time limit. I'd like to have the bike in a month.

 

[hjns]

50 mph? I think you need to triple your budget....

 

[amberwolf]

Your budget sounds kinda low for what you want it to do and look like.

 

[ddk]

lol-50 mph on a bicycle for 30-40 miles
- [peewee herman]"I love that story" [/peewee herman]

 

[John in CR]

Can it look like the Hanebrink, but without the exposed motor which would be in the rear wheel instead and somewhat narrower tires but still fat?


Note that a 50mph capable ebike that also has 30 mile range (obviously a lot less at 50) simply isn't going to happen at 50-60lbs.

John

 

[neptronix]

Honestly.. you want 40-50mph AND stealth?
Convert a motorcycle or scooter!

Ain't nothin' stealth about a 22-34lb hub or chain driven motor on a bicycle + huge tires + huge brakes + huge batteries + huge controller

You need to either lower your speed expectations or just go straight to a moped/scooter/motorcycle chassis.

 

[Brinley]

I must be misinformed then.

Alright I'll bite, so a bike with these capabilities, what am I looking at in price?

The speed could be as low as 35 and the mileage as low as 20 I suppose. I'd like to be able to reach 40 assisted though, otherwise I really see no point in an e-bike for city-travel.

Are there other points where I can cut cost particularly to reach between 2.5 and 3k? To tell you the truth, I don't quite see where the costs are coming from. I can get a decent used dual-suspension frame for 500, dual golden-pies--is it the battery more than anything? Some other component I'm not considering?

 

[John in CR]

Brinley,
You didn't answer my question whether it could have a look similar to a Hanebrink, ie much smaller fatter tires than typically seen on a pedal bicycle.

 

[Brinley]

Brinley,
You didn't answer my question whether it could have a look similar to a Hanebrink

What if it could?
I'm open for ideas really. If the qualities mentioned could be maintained then I don't see why not I guess. If it was loud, it'd be a deal killer, if it looks way too much like a motorcycle and not a bike, also a deal killer. I want to be able to accelerate over 20 Mph without being stopped by every cop I see because it looks like a motorcycle/scooter and I have no licence.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

I think you should scrap getting someone to build you something and just buy this:

http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/collections/electric_assist/t80_plus_gl/#

Heck, it's Tampa. It's flat.

 

[winkinatcha]

'Kay, Costs

Lets say you go for a dd hub. 26" wheel...

To get your 40-50 mph you'll need voltages up around the 72volt mark, say a minimum of 15-20ah...
Using LipoFe as a plug and play style charging, with BMS, JUST for The Battery starting price (Ping as an example) = $700

Dual golden Pies lets say bargain basement 250 per "kit" (no battery) that's another $500... (amd I have a feeling that is REALLY Bargain basement... that's what I sell base kits for over here in AUS)

From GM's website, based on the Magic Pie Goods:$398 + Air Shipping Fee:$135 So yer actually looking at $520 EACH or lets say $1000

So... From above, WITHOUT ANY ASSEMBLY and at the lower end of reaching your desires....

Battery $700
Motors $1000
Bike Frame (your Quote) $500

You've hit $2200 already, with no battery enclosure, no wiring up, no assembly, no torque arms, If yer lucky a bog standard charger, no monitering (Cycle Analyst)...

So for sure, maybe within your budget, but seems a bit unfair to expect that a builder would put a couple of days worth of assembly into a bike for you for free, and sure wouldn't be some Uber Awesome Steam Punk thing...

joe

 

[winkinatcha]

'Owever,

I Could put you together a single DD Rear hub driven thing (if you provide frame) capable of pushing you up to 30 mph (you can still peddle on top of that) based on Ping 20ah setup with 20 mile range for $1800... BUT...you'd be wanting to assist the motor to get to the top speed...(output around 1.5kw) Personally I reckon that would keep you satisfied for a while...

unfortunately, I am in AUS, so it aint gonna help ya...

Joe

 

[Brinley]

'Kay, Costs

Lets say you go for a dd hub. 26" wheel...


From GM's website, based on the Magic Pie Goods:$398 + Air Shipping Fee:$135 So yer actually looking at $520 EACH or lets say $1000

Battery $700
Motors $1000
Bike Frame (your Quote) $500

You've hit $2200 already, with no battery enclosure, no wiring up, no assembly, no torque arms, If yer lucky a bog standard charger, no monitering (Cycle Analyst)...

So for sure, maybe within your budget, but seems a bit unfair to expect that a builder would put a couple of days worth of assembly into a bike for you for free, and sure wouldn't be some Uber Awesome Steam Punk thing...

joe

Well as far as the steampunk part, I'll cover that. I just mean, I don't want a frame with FOX all over it, bright yellow or something. Steampunk is probably a wrong word to use since it has the connotation of watch-parts glued to the frame, random useless brass pieces and tacky-randomness. I meant more along the lines of brushed steel frame, I can throw a patina on and unremarkable shocks without a spaceage look to them. I just like that Victorian old craftmanship look, but I can work toward it with whatever I get.

Anyhow, I can see I wasn't factoring that much cost in on the battery, I was thinking a third of that cost which seems to be where my major mistake is. I wouldn't expect to pay much more than 300-500 for assembly though, really. Forgive me if more would be expected.

Is there a dramatic difference and lowering of cost if say I go for something I can kick 35-40 MPH on flat terrain and 15-20 Miles of battery power instead?

 

[migueralliart]

Im in florida mate!

Magic pie plus hardtail. For plug and play u should go with a huge ass Ping but that aint gonna be stealth. Since u dont have time lipo is not an option.

 

[Brinley]

Im in florida mate!

Magic pie plus hardtail. For plug and play u should go with a huge ass Ping but that aint gonna be stealth. Since u dont have time lipo is not an option.

Floridian! Great!

Ping? Lipo? My definitions of both of those you went from networking jargin to talking about sucking fat out of my body in the same paragraoh, so I must not get the lingo.

Just as a note for all this I weigh in at about a buck sixty of average height.

 

[ddk]

here's a hint
I travel 35-40 miles per ride @ 15-20mph and the trip requires a 1200W battery. Not that I use all 1200W but one needs to NOT completely discharge batteries.
Ever.
Double 1200W @25mph. Triple the 1200W above 30mph. ad nauseam

 

[winkinatcha]

Yeah, Batteries are a MAJOR input cost

The tech problem (at least with my experience, PURELY on DD hubs) is the top speed needs higher voltage... Getting up to 35-40 means you need around 60 volts... and that starts getting problematic, cos "standard" mid quality controllers are running at the limits of component voltage tolerance at this level, and really don't quite cut it, over the "nominal" 48v (more like low 50s hot off the charger).

So you start needing to either Mod the controller components and build to enable it to handle the higher voltage, or you need more expensive controllers built capable of handling that voltage...

Likewise with the motors themselves, once you start going over 1.5kw ish (though more to do with current than volts blah blah blah), you begin to get into the territory of modded mid quality motors to handle the extra pwer and resultant heating.

And again ensuring the Frame and other bike components can handle the higher power and speed also requires consideration, meaning you want to start considering higher than bog standard bicycle components.

In a nutshell Breaking the 48v "barrier" == 30mph barrier starts costing dollars in no small fashion.

15- 20 miles range equates to 15-20 ah capacity minimum LiFePo in my experience... so this is "a little" helpful in that you can stay within the mid cost, capacity/ah rating wise of battery tech available with plug and play like qualities... you can trade this off a little if you go for LiPo but consideration for more management during charge and discharge has to be factored in and may make initial "cheapness" of this tech less attractive.

Joe

joe

 

[winkinatcha]

Some Terminoligy Transparancy

Ping is a Chinese Battery Supplier of good reputation who provides Plug-and-Play batteries (BMS (battery management system) + dedicated chargers... looks after the batteries for balancing and over discharge/charge)
Uses LiFePo4 (Lithium Ferric Oxide (Iron Oxide) Battery chemistry, slightly more "forgiving" than RC (Radio Controlled.. used in hobby aircraft etc so light and high discharge) LiPo (Lithium Polymer Chemistry) batteries)

In terms of what I could do (Though again I cant do it for YOU cos I am in Australia) My Quote $1800 was based on the following:

2*24v 20ah Ping $900 (BMS + Chargers plug n Play)

Base Kit $250
Wheel + 25 Amp Controller + controlls (e-brakes, thumb throttle LV warning)

Less-than-best battery mounting (Rear rack so weight distribution will be rear heavy...

with Full Power Upgrades
(53 tooth chain ring,
Breakout box,
soft switch,
Fused
Parallel /Serial Harness
Drilled motor cover
upgraded phase wires
Hi current cut-off switch)
+$300

+$200 Labour

$1850

So yeah I under quoted by $50

Joe

 

[e-beach]

So I appeal to the masters of green energy solutions here at Endless-Sphere for the first time; build me a bike oh Tamers-of-Lightning-Horses!

Sorry if you got a sniker or two from them right off the bat. I will explane a bit further down this post, but there are reasons why.

I've seen a number of builds and I'm very open to creative input. My budget is $2,500.

Seems like someone should be able to build you an e-bike for that amount.

If it's desired, I have someone who can weld up a frame to any specification. I have a guy who can whip up an adruino to run everything from speedo/odometer gauge to on-board diagnostics and even a keyless ignition with an RFID card in my back-pocket for a few bucks in components. The guy is a wizard with these little adruino boards. You can PM me if you are interested.

All this extra stuff sounds great but before we get into the "fantastic" stuff you have described above we should first think about the basics of e-bikes.

Purpose of the bike: A daily rider to take me roughly 10 miles, but capable of 3x that on a single charge.

That part is easy. All you need is a 36v 800 watt motor with a 30 amp controller like I have. I am only running a 15ah LiFePo pack, but I can get around 40 miles on a 90 minute charge....if I go about 6 mph. If I run around town in stop and go traffic I can go as fast as the city buses for about 22 miles. In other words speed equals current sucked out of your battery pack. So if you want distances and speed, you need lots of amp hours.

Tops out at 40-50 MPH

Ok, first of all, bicycles are not motorcycles, or scooters. They are light weight vehicles that are not designed to take the forces that high speed and inertia bring to the equation. High speeds and strong motors will destroy most stock frames. That being said, some people are making e-bikes that go as fast as 90 mph, but guess what? Those bikes don't look much like any bike most people have ever seen.

I need it very quiet and unobtrusive. It needs to be a "stealth" E-bike for lack of a better description; something difficult to spot, for the uninitiated as a powered bike.

OK, so here is why the snickers. If you want a bike that has distance and speed then you will need a bike with a huge motor and lots of batteries. There is no way it will look like a normal "stealth" bicycle. If you want a bike that tops out a 40-50 then it will need to do big frame and break modifications, a large motor and a bunch of batteries. In other words it will look like a highly modified bicycle. Not "stealth" at all.

Also, there are ALOT of pot-holes and such where I live here in Tampa Bay, FL. I think I'll need full suspension.

Most full suspension bikes leave little or no room inside the frame triangle for batteries. What that means is that you need to put them somewhere else. I don't like rear-rack mounted batteries because it results in bad weight distribution, but with the amount of amp hours you would want, on a full suspension bike, it would mean a small suitcase full of batteries that would have to be mounted on your rack to accommodate the amount of Ah you would need. Does that sound like a "stealth look: to you?

Light as possible; 50-60Lbs would be fine I think, but not much more, alot less would be great.

I don't think this is possible with your desired requirements. My e-bike has 1 hub motor, 1 15Ah battery pack, aluminum frame....just the basics and with the 2 bicycle locks included it weights 80 lbs.

Are you beginning to understand the chuckles?

Also since it's Florida, the bike needs to be proofed against the elements.
Some specifications I will be looking for are:
Kill switch direct to link between the motor and battery
Thumb Throttle
Fenders (for rain water)
Full Suspension frame
Brushless Motor
Discreet Battery mount, preferred in the frame itself rather than on a rack
Removable and lockable battery
As close to invisible cable management as possible
Seat optional, I'll be getting a brown leather Brooks Seat and matching handlebars.

All that is doable.

Style, going for an olden style to if possible, very modest and understates steampunk if possible. Originally was doing an E-boardtrack racer style bike, but came to find it was not going to work out for my needs to have a long-framed bike that looks like a motorcycle.

Well....guess what. All e-bikes look different then pedal bikes. If you want extreme performance from an e-bicycle it will never look like a regular bicycle. It will look like an extremely different kind of bike. Not a stealth bike at all.

That is the real reason for the snickers.

Anyway, welcome to the board!

Hope this helps.

 

[wesnewell]

Putting aside all the BS, for a lot less than $2500 you can put together a bike that will come close to your specs.My $800 bike will come close to it, although it won't reach 50mph. Maybe 45 with a 160 lb rider. If I keep the speed down under 20 mph I could probably squeeze close to 100 miles out of a charge with lots of pedaling. For $2500 I could certainly put one together to hit 50 mph. Closer to 60mph, but it isn't going to be stealth. And the only way to get a 30 mile range is to keep the speed down to ~25-30 mph unless you want to spend another $400 on batteries. Then you might get a 30 mile range at close to 40 mph But for now, I'm glad I made a file of this.
First thing you need to do is go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field. This will help people help you. If you don't care about getting help, then you may disregard this post. Example: Wylie, TX, USA.

 

[Jason27]

You could definately do 50 mph with a $2500 budget. Here is what I would do.

2kw ebike kit from ebikes.ca -$800
2, 36v allcell battery packs in series for 72 volts -$1000
High quality steel frame bicycle- $500
Accessories-$200

$2500 total

 

[John in CR]

Brinley,

Take a look here http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/2...rink-electric-bike-is-an-off-road-dream-mach/. I can make the ebike look less like a motorcycle than that and be virtually silent in comparison with the loudest noises being the tires on the road and the clicking freewheel on the pedal line, because it won't have the spinning motor driving a chain, but with a similar look. If that's okay, then at that price (before shipping) I can hit your performance requirements except range and maybe weight. Before determining actual weight I'd want to build a crude throw together version to verify that geometry is safe at speed and what kind of weight adding reinforcement I feel is necessary before building one for someone else.

I'd guarantee an ebike that will push you to 50mph and at least 10 miles of range on flat roads at 20mph using a unique high efficiency hubmotor capable of 5kw peak in the configuration for this bike which also has a unique in the industry low speed setting capable of climbing grades well above 20% without issue. That low setting is also useful for lower speed cruising. While the $2500 would include enough for the 10mile or better battery, I won't be directly involved in the battery purchase. I'll give you direction about what and where to get the battery and how to easily assemble install and manage the pack yourself. Before final payment and shipment I'd provide video of your bike achieving stated performance with a rider significantly heavier than yourself. I have some interesting ideas for the frame itself for enclosed battery storage that also keep the ebike stealthy as well as make the frame stronger.

For others interested this custom built ebike at that crazy to most price is only available to whoever is first, whether it's Brinley or not, and I would want to use that build in my advertising. I won't be able to determine how much higher subsequent custom builds would be until I get all the way into this build.

John

PS- Ignore the noise in your thread coming from those who have never ridden a 50mph ebike, much less built one.
PSS- You mentioned bad roads, so while this ebike would have performance in some ways like a small motorcycle, it will still be more bike than moto, so reserve full speed riding for nice clear smooth roads. You'll want to avoid hitting potholes or even bumpy roads at 50mph, not because it would hurt the bike, but on such a light vehicle you could easily lose control.
PSSS- While some ebikes can achieve 50mph for short distances, typical ebike motors simply aren't efficient enough to sustain that kind of output. When I say 50mph capable, I mean you can get on an open road and ride full throttle for as long as your battery lasts. This motor likes going fast and doesn't overheat itself in the process.

Brinley,
You didn't answer my question whether it could have a look similar to a Hanebrink

What if it could?
I'm open for ideas really. If the qualities mentioned could be maintained then I don't see why not I guess. If it was loud, it'd be a deal killer, if it looks way too much like a motorcycle and not a bike, also a deal killer. I want to be able to accelerate over 20 Mph without being stopped by every cop I see because it looks like a motorcycle/scooter and I have no licence.

 

[winkinatcha]

Awesome John, Now I understand your tyre questions....

Joe

 

[wesnewell]

While we're dreaming, here's what I would use. Don't think ebikes.ca carries a motor that would meet your needs without burning it up.
Either Hubzilla or Clyte HS4080. I'd probably prefer the HS4080, but don't have the full specs or price on it yet. I emailed manufacturer earlier because I'm interested in it too. None of the common motors will take the power you'd need for 50+mph for any length of time. $600 or less.
36fet 100A controller capable of 100V. $200
10-20ah (depending on required range) of 24s lipo. $350-$700
Throttle, ebrakes, misc wiring, etc. $50
Charger setup. $200
Steel framed bike. $???

Personally, i think you should stick with something in the 30-35 mph cruise range. You can do that with a common 48V 1000W motor kit for ~$ 280 plus 15s battery cost. A cop sees you at 40 mph, he's going to nail you for sure.

 

[dogman dan]

Buying a motor from John might be your best bet, if you really want that 50 mph.

Bear in mind though, that it's legal where John lives. But you will be riding an illegal uninsured unregistered homemade motorcycle in a state where most e mopeds that come with a vin number cannot be registered because of a stupid catch 22 law at dmv. Then you have some localities where cops live to ticket the e mopeds.

Hence some of the snickers about 50 mph. Risky enough legaly in my state, where cops care only if you are bleeding or shooting.

50 mph is definietly doable on your budget, but most of the typical designed for bikes stuff on the market overheats in 10-15 miles when pushed that hard. Plus, only really good frames can handle sustained 50 mph. Again, John has it figured out, lengthen and strengthen the frame, or start with a frame with inherent lateral stiffness. Then he uses powerful scooter motors, rather than bike stuff. Your welder buddy can make you a new swingarm for a full suspension bike, that lengthens the bike and accomodates the scooter axles. Real tires are a real plus too at 50 mph.

A 50 mph e bike is not going to ride like a honda 125. ( had one that needed only oil and air in tires for 4 years) Pushing a bike that far will result in plenty of time tinkering with it, trueing wheels, adjusting brakes, and you can wear out a bike tire in one day if you ride it hard into enough corners. More snickers from those of us who have done 50 mph, and know a 50 mph daily driver is pretty out there if built with 25 mph bike motors.

If you are still even reading by now, 35 mph is pretty reasonable. The cheap motors can touch 40 mph, but if you really want that range, 1500w should be about your upper limit. I've yet to melt down a motor at 1500w However, bikes have two wheels, and two direct drive hubmotors running at 1500w each will just get you to 40 mph and run the distance without melting either one. A single motor run at 3000w will reach 40 mph too, but about 10 miles is the distance limit when run at that speed, then the motor melts.

But again, if you cruise at 40, you will have time in maintenance, if nothing else, caring for batteries capable of that. My advice is to build half of that two motor bike to start with.

Any inexpensive rear hubmotor, direct drive type. 72v 20 amps controller. That gets you 35 mph max speed, and still 30 mph at the low end of the battery. Put it on a pretty decent bike. By that I mean the frame must be stiff, and the brakes good. Nothing from wallmart in the $150 price range with a floppy frame.

To power it, AND not become a time consuming hobby, two 36v 15 ah lifepo4 batteries. Put in series for 72v. Unplug from each other to charge them, then plug back into series to run. You will have at least 40 mile range at 20 mph, and about 20 mile range full blast.

The problem is, how to carry that much battery. Pick a frame that can at least carry one battery in the triangle space. Carrying the second one on a rear rack will degrade the handling. Best solution might be choosing a longtail bike.

A really good bike could easily blow most of your budget. Lower your aim to normal bike speeds, 30mph or less and you can do it all for much much less money, carry less battery, and still have 35 mile range at 18 mph. 48v kit, 48v 15 ah lifepo4.