I want to upgrade my hub motor, some advice please?

[gd6]

Hi everyone! I'm hoping someone will take a minute to help me out here...I would really appreciate it.

I bought a pre-built electric bike a few months ago. Its an UltraMotors Europa...it was essentially new and it seemed like my best choice at the time. I ended up taking the plastic shell off the bike as I didn't care for that look.

The bikes specs are that currently 400w heinzmann motor, w/ a 36v 10 amp hour li-ion battery.

The place where I usually travel with my bike is 10 miles round trip, with a 1000 ft drop in elevation (ie, a big uphill drive home) , which is why I wanted an electric assisted bike...but I have a three issues with the Heinzmann 400w motor on the bike...and if upgrading the motor would fix all three I would be happy to spend a few hundred bucks to do so. The 3 issues are listed below.

1)Peddling the bike without electric assistance sucks...it feels like twice as hard as a normal bike, and it would really suck trying to get home if the battery was dead because I live at the top of a huge incline. Is this due to the brushed motor?
2)I could use a little extra power coming up the hills. It's currently sufficient, most of the time, but it would be nice to have some more power to get home faster.
3)The Heinzmann brushed motor (400w) is too loud at high RPM's. Climbing hills its fine, but the noise level is irritating going fast on flat ground.

I was thinking about upgrading the motor to something like this http://goo.gl/UAV8K . Would that solve the above 3 mentioned things?? Also, if you have any better reccomendations as far as motors I'm all ears...I have such little experience with these things but really enjoy riding my bike. Thanks for any input!

BTW, I'm 170 pounds, and the bike right now weighs about 70 pounds...not sure how much that factors into motor choice.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, we like to say all the time, list three things you want, and you can have two but not all three.

The one you can't really have is a motorized bike that weighs 30 pounds more than a normal bike, yet pedals like it weighs 30 pounds less than it does. The resistance you are feeling is weight. Unpowered, the Heinzmann motor actually freewheels. So all you are feeling is weight. The direct drive motor you link to will actually resist more than what you have when riding unpowered.

But the motor you picked will be faster, and much much quieter. Depending on the steepness of the hill, it may not get up it quite as good as the heinzmann. Though loud, they sure are torquey. So if faster and quieter are you main needs, your choice is fine.

I would suggest you choose a different type of geared hubmotor with a freewheel. Brushless, it will be more efficient than the brushed motor heinzmann. It will still have the advantage of internal gearing to get up hills well, and won't be anywhere close to as noisy. Still won't pedal unpowered like it weighs nothing, but it will have the internal freewheel like the heinzmann.That allows coasting better than a direct drive motor.
http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i22.html

 

[gd6]

I would suggest you choose a different type of geared hubmotor with a freewheel. Brushless, it will be more efficient than the brushed motor heinzmann. It will still have the advantage of internal gearing to get up hills well, and won't be anywhere close to as noisy. Still won't pedal unpowered like it weighs nothing, but it will have the internal freewheel like the heinzmann.That allows coasting better than a direct drive motor.
http://www.emissions-free.com/catalog/i22.html

I guess the main improvement I would ask for in an upgrade would be significantly more torque for climbing hills, as it seems like I'm always either coasting down or climbing up the majority of the time. You said the motor I have is actually rather good torque wise... so would the motor you linked be much of an improvement at all for torque? I understand it would be quieter, which is nice, but I'm having doubts about upgrading unless it makes a significant difference in other areas.

I appreciate your input, thanks!

 

[k-harvey]

http://www.cyclone-e-bikes.tw/product.php?pid_for_show=3153 I live on a mountain , had hub motors, would u drive your car in only one gear? try a Al frame 500w 12Ah from BMS Battery site & you'l never go up hill less than 20k an hr & if no battery left they're not much heavier to peddle up & i'm a 70 yr old- as getting older and hill getting steeper ive now 960w 36v that i can go to 48v1200w but steel frame but peddling this up is tough.

 

[John in CR]

The cheapest, probably easiest way which guarantees to give you what you want is to add a small geared hubbie on the front. The guys who know the little geared hubbies better can help select the right one, because you'll want a good match with what you have already. If something already survives big climbs, then dumping it for an unknown is a huge risk. People blow motors all the time on climbs. OTOH, adding a small helper that freewheels nicely has only upside, because you'd be reducing the load for the existing system. Guys running 2wd swear by it.

Don't forget the torque arms.

 

[gd6]

http://www.cyclone-e-bikes.tw/product.php?pid_for_show=3153 I live on a mountain , had hub motors, would u drive your car in only one gear? try a Al frame 500w 12Ah from BMS Battery site & you'l never go up hill less than 20k an hr & if no battery left they're not much heavier to peddle up & i'm a 70 yr old- as getting older and hill getting steeper ive now 960w 36v that i can go to 48v1200w but steel frame but peddling this up is tough.

Wow...I was looking at the 960w 36v kits and they are really impressive. I'm not sure if they are compatible with the frame I have, but considering the possibilities as that would be perfect for me. I have a nearly endless beautiful and steep mountain range in my backyard, and a bike like that would really help me get up there fast (with powerful batteries of course)

 

[k-harvey]

I've now added a nuvinci hub from taiwan cyclone , its incredable especialy round town -but i 'm an oldy with a bit of $ so its a test to see how long it lasts,One other advice is make sure BMS on LiFePo4 battery has big enough BMS on web site one has to increase the Amp thingy or ask if its right for the volt & Wattage of motor. i;ve replaced lots of BMS's that were too small .

 

[teklektik]

Another non-hub option: GNG 48v BB Drive.
Assembly video here: Full-throttle's 2nd - in progress

 

[John in CR]

I have a nearly endless beautiful and steep mountain range in my backyard, and a bike like that would really help me get up there fast (with powerful batteries of course)

In that case a whole lot more power along with higher efficiency is what's called for, because fast+mountains means power. Also, since you're already complaining about the noise, look out for most BB drives. Since you're in Europe maybe you can source a Bosch drive, which I understand is good quality.

 

[timctx]

I second dogman on the geared MAC from cell_man. Just switched out my DD MXUS for the MAC 10T and aside from the slightly buzzy noise it makes much better all around performance. Did a test of my battery today and got 16 miles with moderate pedaling around downtown and east Austin with moderate hill. 10AMPs of 12S lipo. Running controller at 22AMPs until I get a torque arm and rear disk installed.

 

[gd6]

Man there really are so many amazing options...luckily I have some free time and extra money. This is really an interesting hobby to get into, and I've loved bikes since I was little.

After looking at the options, I'm really considering just reselling the bike I have (hopefully I can get $600, right around what I paid for it), and maybe investing up to $1,000 on a custom project. I just figure that if I'm going to upgrade, might as well get what I really want, and tackle the big adventures that I've been dreaming about.

I would love to use it in the mountains in my backyard (I live right on the south border of the Angeles National Forest, which has some really nice trails and some serious elevation gain...and it would need some torque, but I don't want it to be overkill cause too fast could be deadly on these trails. I really like the 960w chainwheel kit from cyclone, as I feel that it would tackle the steep inclines around here no problem.

 

[k-harvey]

Yep buddy u won't regret having 36v 960 cylone with the added resistor one can make it 48v 1200w 7 the guy i talk to Br Paco can put u right on most things . they hav a good parts schedule & I'm always getting bits from them for others who crash or whatever , I like 3 chainwheel kit for in the mud etc but ya need to keep shoelaces short as she cuts them off . also block that little drain hole on opp side of wires. & weather proof throdle connection . i make crank so chain can't go too deep when jumping into between chainwheel. I ride along coast with salt spray & even waves over me (not if i can help it) then the mountain as they call it, still a bike & keeping me fit.

 

[dogman dan]

Mid drives are of course, way superior to hubmotors for getting the most torque out of 1000w or less.

There's two approaches basicly, mo power on a hubmotor, like 3000w on up. and a chain drive that allows you to select a really low gear to run the power through.

The main drawback I've seen with chain drives like cyclone, is so many people get themselved sucked into constantly selecting too high a gear. The motor should be purring, not grunting. But the tendency is to feel like that gear is so slow and boring, they upshift and hammer the motor and the battery.

 

[k-harvey]

Youare right there mate I now make the motor rev rather than strain up this big hill (if racing someone its in reverse)but sometimes still the controller shuts down( Cyclone man said if lights stay on & motor cut out its controller, if lights go out all together its BMS) So its the controller thats been overstrained I classed it as---will see the next time what happens, Not very often though.

 

[k-harvey]

Drop yr hub motor mate stay away fromthat what i seen on e bay as its what i had -----now even having 960w 36v heavy thing sucks when no power & hav to peddal. My best is Al scott mountain bike with cyclone 500w midrive 12ah liFepo4 & weighs 23k still good to pedal as i live on an urban mountain & sure as eggs one day u pedal.

 

[passpato]

The motor you have is a 400watt. This is its rated power. The law in europe prevents people from riding electric vehicles on the roads with a motor that runs all day (rated power) at over 250 watts on the road (500watts in Germany on cycle routes) Your motor is using a 1000 watts to climb that hill and the motor will over heat. It is designed to do so, to stay within european law.
The Heinzmann with steel gears is noisey but the nylon geared motors are quiter. The snag is the gear wears out is is expensive to replace. It would wear out quickly on that climb. I have several Heinzmanns and I am working on producing replacement steel gears for worn out nylon ones.
You could put a second motor in your other wheel. This should help with the climb. Or you could switch on overheat.