I want your opinions on e-bike Legal issues

[rhitee05]

Look, let's just talk basic physics here. 600 W will not get you very fast! There are calculators you can find on the web to figure out how much power you need to go such and such a speed. At 600 W on level ground, you'll probably make about 25 MPH. Maybe 30 MPH in full hunched-over road-racer posture. If you want to go 50 MPH, you're looking at more like 3-3.5 kW, on level ground. If you want to do even a little hill at that speed, say 3%, now you're at more like 5 kW. We haven't even thought about head winds, or how long it'll take you to accelerate to those top speeds...

You want to build this? Go ahead, have fun! Just temper your expectations a bit.

 

[scob89]

Well, I guess I'm done here, didn't ask for build advice and the legal issue question has been answered more then once. And I don't need to be told over and over again that it won't work.

I will finish up with this, It's my project, I have said over and over again that I do not care if it fails, 600W at 12V won't get you much, but 600W at 120V will get you much more. I think some of you think I'm running a 12V system or something. Just accept the fact that I am going to build it regardless of what anyone says.

I will come back and post whether it worked or not. I feel that it will, but can be wrong. The fun is in finding out, and come on, losing $25 over a fun build and learning is not a bad deal. Got a problem with it? Tough. If you have any reasonable questions, just send me a PM.

Mainly I don't appreciate being called a troll and a dumb person.

I am however stuck between a dilemma. My 750W inverter bit the dust(old old unit with tons of dust inside, didn't want to run a large load, needed a new one anyway). Do I get a 1000W inverter for $80, or wait for a coupon and the a 800W generator from harbor freight for $89. I have other uses for both, so no money wasted. I'm leaning towards the inverter for my solar system.

Don't expect me to answer any more questions on this forum, there are better forums out there. Sure they still say it won't work, but atleast they are not flat out calling me a dumb person, or a troll.

Should have it done within a week since I'm feeling much better after I had my wisdom teeth taken out.

 

[amberwolf]

600W at 12V won't get you much, but 600W at 120V will get you much more.

No, it won't--600W is 600W no matter what--it's the same amount of total power either way.

It's just that at 12VDC, it's going to take 50A to make 600W, and at 120VAC (from your inverter) it's going to take a tenth of that current for the same power, during the peaks of the AC cycle, to make the peak of 600W. (to get an average power of 600W, it'll take a higher current, IIRC, but math is not my friend so I can't give you the numbers on that )

Just accept the fact that I am going to build it regardless of what anyone says.

I, for one, would like to see the results; I just don't want you to be disappointed in the results, and go in expecting more than it's capable of, at those limits. It's fun to do projects like this; to repurpose things and push limits of them.

I've already been there myself, in my first experiments with motors and bikes, and if I'd had better advice when I started, I probably would've gotten further along faster than I did, and wasted less money on stuff that couldn't work like I needed it to.

Do I get a 1000W inverter for $80, or wait for a coupon and the a 800W generator from harbor freight for $89. I have other uses for both, so no money wasted. I'm leaning towards the inverter for my solar system.

First, make sure you check out the specs on the inverter, because some can be used with motor loads and some can't (if they don't say they can, they might work, but might be damaged or destroyed by them). Some of them may damage your motor controller, too.

Don't expect me to answer any more questions on this forum, there are better forums out there. Sure they still say it won't work, but atleast they are not flat out calling me a dumb person, or a troll.

Not everyone here is doing that, so punishing the rest of us that are trying to help you, for the sins of a few, doesn't seem fair. It's your project and your choice, though.

 

[scob89]

But since I can prove I'm a real person and not a troll, I'm too dumb to figure out how to take pics let alone videos, them be complicated. lol

I had typed out a long response but figured that was the best response.

It was wrong of me to not read the forum rules before joining, I just assumed that the general online rules applied. I was wrong. Sorry.

I joined this forum because of a bike build I had seen on here awhile ago. The guy had 25 or so 18V Ryobi drill batts. Awesome build.

 

[amberwolf]

If you need help getting pics posted, tell us what you have and what you need to do, and we can help with that, too.

 

[scob89]

Dude, it's called sarcasm, I was making fun of other people's posts. All I needs to post video is a RCA to USB video adapter since my old VHS cam still works like a charm.

To clear it up for ya b
It pretty much means I have no intention of posting pics of the finished project. I will just come back and say if it works or not. I just have no reason to feed the trolls and should have made shire this forum had be nice rules. My fault for not checking. Bye bye until it's done. Any questions feel free to pm me like I said before.

 

[amberwolf]

Ah, I see. I'm sorry I tried to help.

I'll leave you alone now.

 

[Andje]

haha attitude of the year. What an idiot.

We need a word for people that ask for and then purposefully ignore advice from experts in online forums; Noob isn't enough, it refers to too many things.
We could make a word like Santorum (definition; messy residue of lube and...matter... after anal sex, invented by Dan Savage of Savage love in reference to Rick Santorum).

Since I'm a Canadian, I vote we call people like this "Harpers" but I'm probably in a minority lol.

 

[TonyReynolds]

Well, that was an interesting thread. Read the whole thing, still don't know what to think, but even for this noob I still learned a lot from the veterans here.

I like to listen to sound advice because not only do I not have money to burn, but my time's also worth something. I can understand some of the reasoning from the OP, and it's great to brainstorm ideas, but also bull-headed to ignore good advice, plus the OP wan't totally up-front on a couple key questions. Like inability to get a MC endorsement while having a CD license? That doesn't make sense.

If I wanted to make an electric motorcycle, which is what this (as the OP specs) amounts to, I'd start with a MC frame and running gear as suggested and then have it INSPECTED by the State Patrol and LICENSED as a MC. But that's just me.

Wow, 4 page of posts and the guy walks...

Tony

 

[RVD]

this guy will grow up to this (fake story but maybe this guy will make it real):

The Arizona Highway Patrol were mystified when they came upon a pile of smoldering wreckage embedded in the side of a cliff rising above the road at the apex of a curve. The metal debris resembled the site of an airplane crash, but it turned out to be the vaporized remains of an automobile. The make of the vehicle was unidentifiable at the scene.

The folks in the lab finally figured out what it was, and pieced together the events that led up to its demise.

It seems that a former Air Force sergeant had somehow got hold of a JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off) unit. JATO units are solid fuel rockets used to give heavy military transport airplanes an extra push for take-off from short airfields.

Dried desert lakebeds are the location of choice for breaking the world ground vehicle speed record. The sergeant took the JATO unit into the Arizona desert and found a long, straight stretch of road. He attached the JATO unit to his car, jumped in, accelerated to a high speed, and fired off the rocket. The facts, as best as could be determined, are as follows:

The operator was driving a 1967 Chevy Impala. He ignited the JATO unit approximately 3.9 miles from the crash site. This was established by the location of a prominently scorched and melted strip of asphalt. The vehicle quickly reached a speed of between 250 and 300 mph and continued at that speed, under full power, for an additional 20-25 seconds. The soon-to-be pilot experienced G-forces usually reserved for dog-fighting F-14 jocks under full afterburners.

The Chevy remained on the straight highway for approximately 2.6 miles (15-20 seconds) before the driver applied the brakes, completely melting them, blowing the tires, and leaving thick rubber marks on the road surface. The vehicle then became airborne for an additional 1.3 miles, impacted the cliff face at a height of 125 feet, and left a blackened crater 3 feet deep in the rock.

Most of the driver's remains were not recovered; however, small fragments of bone, teeth, and hair were extracted from the crater, and fingernail and bone shards were removed from a piece of debris believed to be a portion of the steering wheel.

 

[Thud]

My how we "pile on" in some threads....I went back & re-read the OP...

The only question i see was about the legality of a pedal-less bicycle...even the title reflected that intent.....Sure it was loaded with wildly optomistic goals & some questionable math, but for cripes sake, stay on point.

More than a few guys got out of bounds in regard to forum etiquite.
even my sarchastic attempt to keep this thread on track was questionable form.

My point? answer direct questions directly if you feel qualified to answer.
If you see something totaly dangerous speak out...If its bad info or a total newb spouting....make a correcting responce/statment & the let the rest go untill they understand they need help & have the humility to ask properly.

Most of the off topic responces were playing directly into a trolls hand & flaming is the goal for these fight starting losers (not that I think scob89 is a troll)

If a guy really is a complete imbicile it will become apparent very quickly & then the flaming can begin in ernest.
so far it looks like we have driven away a potential contributer....maybe not now, or in a week, but everyone has something to offer....even if its just being a target.
not a good example of our best welcome.

flame away.
T

 

[TonyReynolds]

No flames, good advice, Thud...

 

[liveforphysics]

600W at 12V won't get you much, but 600W at 120V will get you much more. I think some of you think I'm running a 12V system or something. Just accept the fact that I am going to build it regardless of what anyone says.

...

I am however stuck between a dilemma. My 750W inverter bit the dust(old old unit with tons of dust inside, didn't want to run a large load, needed a new one anyway). Do I get a 1000W inverter for $80, or wait for a coupon and the a 800W generator from harbor freight for $89.

Come on Thud, this guy is a troll and you're falling for it.

Thinking 600w at 120v is going to be different than 600w at 12v? As if the 600w entering the inverter magically becomes more powerful than what he started with?

Wanting to power a bike from a 12v battery to an inverter to run a single phase AC motor? Then with a gen to power a single phase drive motor?

Come on, seriously, nobody is this stupid in real life. Nobody is going to try to use a single phase AC motor for an EV situation when they only can run at 1 rpm range effectively, and have to use a starting capacitor to shift part of a phase timing to even try to generate a starting torque. And nobody would use a gen to power the worlds dumbest EV motor, just to drive the wheel when they all ready claim to have a gas bike. If you have a gas bike, why on earth would you want to just cut your efficiency in half and have to pull a trailer along to do it.

This is somebody howling with laughter after each post for getting some of us to fall for this sh*t.

AKA, a troll.

 

[Thud]

Come on Thud, this guy is a troll and you're falling for it.

Not at all.
I steered clear of what looked like "bait" & stayed on topic.....(& flew a subtle heads up flag, anytime a 1st time poster is asking leagl questions, its a red flag for me) & hoped for the best....Jumping in & calling him out was playing into his hand (if it was a troll) & every post from here on out is nothing but sweet troll berries for the ones out here in the wild west of interweb land LOL!

call me optomistic.

 

[dogman dan]

Heh heh, Luke, you been hanging around people nearly as smart as you are. On the constructions sites, I've never underestimated how stupid that other 10% can be.

But's he's not stupid, just uninformed and stubborn. Another morph. He was entertaining while he lasted.

One last time, and I really will shut up. 40 mph towing a pile of lead is going to take much more than the wattage a small generator will put out. Notice we aren't all doing it? Hmmmm, wonder why not?

Fine idea to do it for 15 -20 mph though.

 

[AussieJester]

In regards to the Wright Bros statement the OP
Made, no people probably didn't tell them it wouldn't work
But back then, nobody new any better, they were pioneers
You are not, there have been one or two before you that have
Built electric bikes and found what works and what doesn't
Now if your to ignorant to listen and want to waste time and money
Failing, all well and good, but no need to crack the sads at those
Here trying to help you, your that pigheaded i'm not at all surprised
Some think your a troll. I doubt your a troll, i'm guessing your
Young, maybe 18-19? And likely high school educated only? Likely
Living in a rural our semi rural area?, probably have decent skillz too..
Would account for the stubbornness to listen to advice from
Those that have genuinely tried to help...have fun failing
Anyways...make sure you link up some video of the contraption
So we have somewhere to point the next ignoramous that
Has grand ideas destined to fail..


KiM

 

[amberwolf]

Come on, seriously, nobody is this stupid in real life.

Have you ever read the beginnings of my Electricle Project blog? :lol: I was going to use a *window crank* motor from a car to run my cargo bike, and I wasnt' even gonna do it thru the drivetrain, but direct to the rear wheel (via a reduction, but still). And I was going to do it from car batteries (because it was what I had), later from UPS batteries.

I would've used AC motors if I had had an inverter to run them (I didn't think of trying to use a UPS to do that until much later, when I already knew it wouldn't work).

Something to keep in mind is that most of us that start out with DIY motor projects like this haven't done any real research on what we're trying to do, but instead just jump in and start blowing things up right off the bat.

Some of us learn quickly, and figure out we have to actually research things before trying them out, and some of us don't learn at all, and there are varying degrees between them.

It doesn't necessarily make any of us trolls, even when we ignore the advice of others (although I wish I had *had* advice *to* ignore* at first).

We have definitely had trolls here before, and I could be wrong but I don't think the OP here is one. I think that he's just another like I was, who didnt' know anything (or enough) about what he wants to do or the things he is wanting to do it with. Still, he's willing to try to do it, and considers it worth doing.


I'd rather guide someone that's willng to try into the realm of the possible, rather than drive them off, away from where they might not get the help that would make their project real.

That said, this particular person has made it pretty clear he doesn't want help from me, so I'll leave it to the rest.

 

[GrayKard]

Maybe we need an E-Bike Legal sub-forum?

Gary

 

[Andje]

the first thread would be "Tried and True Ways to keep your illegal bike looking legal", stickied and signed by Ypedal, 500 posts, 10000 views.
directly underneath it, first post from someone I bet, "What easiest way to stay legal ebike?"

 

[wineboyrider]

Not trying to pick on anyone, but didn't Dogman try hooking a generator to one of his electric bikes? Dogman? or was that on the V is for voltage thread.?
I remember reading it thought somewheres.?

 

[dogman dan]

Yup. I carried a generator in the basket of my first ebike, a schwinn trike. Weighing 50 pounds, it put out 700w. Slowed the trike from 25 mph to about 15. 30 pounds of lead and 50 more of generator was quite a load. With a bigger charger tied to the generator, I could have gone on indefinitely. Well, till the motor melted at about 20 miles. Those aotema brushed motors tended to overheat at about 10-12 miles.

So 700w from an 80 pound system. Wow! really extra super cool!

At that point, I was nearly as uneducated as this guy. But the pingbattery was sitting in customs at the time, and I was grinning the next week with 1500w avaliable for 15 pounds.

 

[sangesf]

I can speak from my own experience and say this..
On my 140lb bike with 36v 600w (16.5a controller), the BEST speed I get on a SINGLE motor is 21.3mph on FLAT roads.
Running two separate controller/motors with the same specs, I get 25mph TOP speed..
There is NO WAY, you're going faster than 25mph with 600w of power..
My STRONGEST build of TWO 48v 1000w controller/motors got me 32mph..

Moral of the story is this....
1.) 99.999% of the time, no pedals = NOT a "legal" bicycle.
2.) Physics (in our current "knowledge model") does NOT allow more power out then power put in. (I.e. You can NOT either create or destroy energy, ONLY TRANSFORM IT).
3.) Given statement #2 abaove, 600w on a single motor will NOT allow more than 600w out. 600w out will only EVER GET YOU MAYBE 23mph.
4.) Running BASICALLY 1200w only got me 25mph..
5.) What you are proposing (supposing) is not only illegal in every state in the union, but extremely DANGEROUS, SHOULD you ACTUALLY happen to create your own brand of physics...

For the OP, I say, buy two (48v 1000w) motors, two 48v 20ah Lifepo4 batteries, two (48v 25a) controllers and you will get 30mph for at 100miles and be done with it.

 

[wineboyrider]

Maybe, we should start a "The stupidest e-bike ideas thread." LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The stupidest idea I ever had was to over volt my currie ezip with a 36v12ah ping and drive straight for 12 miles. My motor didn't make it, because the wires inside the motor were on fire. I could have cooked an egg on that sucker.

 

[scob89]

Just like I said I would. I came back to say weather it worked or not, short answer, Yes it did.

Long answer Yes, but not as good as I had hoped, but still I didn't plan on driving it at 75. 50 is good enough.

I ended up keeping the pedal drivetrain intact and complete. The original plan to mount the motor in the frame, just above the pedals destroyed the frame and didn't have much power, but it still worked. It was a crappy old frame, so i didn't care.

Second time I extended a 26" mountain bike fork enough that the bike would ride level with a 20" wheel on the front. Mounted the motor directly on the top of the fork and installed a 20" rear tire with freewheel hub+gear on the front, and connected the chain drive. That way the front tire was powered and the rear drive system was intact. This was required as the motor does not have enough power to get you going from a dead stop.

To get the bike going, you just pedal til the speedo reads around 5MPH, the turn on the speed controller to a low setting. then keep pedaling lightly and once you hit 10MPH you no longer need to pedal. slowly turn the speed controller to the halfway point and you are doing 25, flip the switch from variable to on, and you will accelerate to 49MPH according to the police radar, plenty good for me. It does not like hills very much, but assist it by pedaling and it does just fine.

As for build pictures and such, f*ck you.

 

[liveforphysics]

49mph on 750W inverter? lol

Can you say bullsh*t?