If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?

[mdd0127]

This is one thread that truly deserves to be locked or at least moved to Toxic.

Why do threads where truth gets posted need to be moved to toxic? This stuff doesn't need to be censored or locked up out of the view of the general public. If anything, the answers need to be explored and discussed by the population at large.

The posts answer the question in the title of the thread and explain why those answers were given.

 

[chopper_elec]

There is no doubt this is a bit of a touchy subject due to the nature of our passion. It's like anything with many infinite possibilities that fuel the discussion like previous experience, personal preference, riding habits etc.

I'm not so sure it would necessarily be needing to be locked, still being new to the forum my intentions were only good to add some discussion amongst an already flourishing and hugely useful forum which I without a doubt feel apart

 

[hillzofvalp]

Maybe restrictions could be by whether you're using a motorcycle helmet or the quality/brand/composition of your bike. I think any bike that can reach 25mph In 3-5 seconds should be able to decelerate just as quickly...

I think some ebikes should be allowed and others shouldn't. Classes should be formed. Manufacturers could rate their bikes for certain speeds, weights, and riding conditions...

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Yes, I am wading back into this can of worms.

Performance should be the criteria. Maybe if justin_le developed a simulator accounting for weight, power, brake type, configuration, etc. we could simply appoint him ebike czar Or at least have something to hand to the politicians to govern ebike performance in a reasoned manner.

Problem is... what is most reasonable, to account for safety and performance, is to treat it as a highly local issue. Automobile performance is managed so locally that you must follow different rules seemingly every 100 ft., and we recognize that what works in one area of the country will not work in another. Automobiles are deserving of this level of detailed reasoning but ebikes are not? We get Cinderella's glass slipper? Some generic guidelines making many ebikes too dangerous for foot paths because they are too fast, and too dangerous for streets because they are too slow, and effectively reducing their competitiveness by making the achievement of certain levels of cargo hauling a tricky endeavor to perform legally without better gearing options? In my humble opinion, this is a recipe for more of what we already have.

Thanks, chopper_elec for the thread. I would love to see people developing the refinements to ebike law which make it a more winning proposition.

 

[Chalo]

Automobile performance is managed so locally that you must follow different rules seemingly every 100 ft., and we recognize that what works in one area of the country will not work in another. Automobiles are deserving of this level of detailed reasoning but ebikes are not?

The dispute isn't about what e-bikes are allowed to do (within the limitations that apply to all vehicles)-- it's about what they are allowed to do for free, uninsured and unlicensed.

Chalo

 

[liveforphysics]

Again though, no amount of additional rules effects those who don't follow them, but do limit the experience of the rule abiding (which generally aren't the problem to begin with).

 

[ProDigit]

Again though, no amount of additional rules effects those who don't follow them, but do limit the experience of the rule abiding (which generally aren't the problem to begin with).

But they do allow higher degrees of punishment for those who are reckless and law breaking.
One day a cop stopped me because I was driving '75MPH' on a 55MPH highway. Now I may have peaked at 75MPH, but long before the cop ever got close to me I was driving the normal 60MPH.

Seems he also fined me the highest fine possible, AND wrote I did not have insurance with me (though I gave him the insurance right there!).

There was no car in sight, and I never pass cars faster than 5MPH higher speed than them (unless they're driving ridiculously slow, or are standing still), so I consider myself a safe driver.

Instead that fine should have gone to some reckless drivers out there surpassing and zigzagging the road all the time!
But instead they chose me, just to meet up with their quota of a certain amount of tickets per month!

Ridiculous!

What I'm trying to say is, that the law should be exerted in grace, not in punishment; but those who trod on grace too often, or who recklessly put themselves and others in danger should be punished greater than those who pose no immediate danger at all!

 

[parajared]

nah,
Don't be rediculous, no one can enforce watt limits, and no one would want to abide by it anyway. The offender here isn't motor size. The offender here is clearly obnoxious use of e-bikes.

Riding your e-bike at 50mph down the local jogging path is obnoxious. Riding a bulky e-motorbike/e-scooter down the sidewalk is obnoxious. Riding your bike at 50mph down the shoulder of the highway is not.

Enforcement of speed is the only answer, but only if it comes to that. I would like to think that we can bike around in a polite enough way that there would be no need for it.

 

[parajared]

I guess if it really, really came down to it they could just say to heck with wattage limits/pedelecs ect and require governors on e-bikes. You know, keep everyone below 25mph or so.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Automobile performance is managed so locally that you must follow different rules seemingly every 100 ft., and we recognize that what works in one area of the country will not work in another. Automobiles are deserving of this level of detailed reasoning but ebikes are not?

The dispute isn't about what e-bikes are allowed to do (within the limitations that apply to all vehicles)-- it's about what they are allowed to do for free, uninsured and unlicensed.

Chalo

Chalo,
My brother (I guess half-brother technically) has lost his license for life due to repeated drunk driving charges, up to and including his most recent incident in which during an argument with a girlfriend, he did a donut in the front yard, and in an attempt to use the car to pin the front door closed he crashed into the apartment complex (he told me it was merely a miscalculation due to braking on wet grass, which from the appearance of the scene appeared somewhat plausible). I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing (although it is a matter of court record) because in most circles it would reflect poorly on both him and by extension me. However, I have a point to prove.

He is on the road legally. Uninsured, definitely unlicensed, and he now must register his scooter (mostly an Indiana theft deterrance), so, relatively free. He can legally go 25 mph, 2hp by state law.

By federal law, I can go 750 w (1hp), and 20 mph.

In my experience one of the most dangerous situations in driving is encountering the unexpectedly slow. Bicycles, scooters, and mopeds by law or physical reality go slower than traffic. In a recent experience, a large SUV went around a slow moving bicycle. The car behind the SUV could not see the bicycle and had not adjusted their speed appropriately, because there were no visual cues telling them they needed to. This car was forced to swerve into the other, oncoming lane of traffic, to avoid hitting the bicyclist, and nearly caused a head-on collision. This is unsafe for everyone involved, and I also suspect that it is an incident which many can relate to, firsthand.

The slower you go, the greater the danger posed. So, my brother who has a demonstrated record of reckless and criminal driving is allowed to go 25 mph, but I, who have only had one speeding ticket in my 37 years of existence and by comparison am an angel, am supposed to go 20 mph?

No, ebikes need upgraded to where 30 mph is easily and safely attained. We as a class of drivers deserve the safety afforded by going with the flow of traffic. Society deserves the increased safety of ebikers going with the flow. And we deserve to do so without paying any penalties, because what we do is good for humanity, we are taking the greatest risk, and if our worst offending drivers are afforded this access without license and insurance, why should we submit to being less than them in society's legal estimation?

I think we all know, that there is a lot of day to day business which can be done more easily and affordably with an ebike. So, why have policies which favor other transportation at the expense of the better alternative?

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Oh and if you want to raise an argument that we pose an increased threat of property damage to cars...don't. Nobody I know wants to get in any sort of a crash on a bicycle, and in a situation where a car might get rear-ended by a bicycle... most would swerve off the road, because most people would rightly make the assumption that a skid is better than a crashing stop with a (by comparison) immovable object (a car). This is not accounting for stupidity, but stupidity creates its own correction (especially during less "reasoned" times).

 

[Chalo]

Federal law regarding e-bikes does not imply anything about what states and localities may or may not permit. It's just a definition by the Consumer Product Safety Commission that says, "if it meets the following criteria, it's an electric bike". Many states have adopted the exact same definition in their laws permitting e-bikes, but many haven't. Here in Texas, there is no power limit, and no language limiting the motor's ability to contribute some power at speeds over 20mph. But Texas has a weight limit that does not exist in the federal guideline. We also have another category called "motor assisted scooter" that allows 25mph and doesn't require pedals. Connecticut allows higher speeds than the CPSC guideline; New York doesn't officially allow e-bikes at all. You get the idea.

My point is not that e-bikes shouldn't be allowed to have superhuman performance; it's that they are something other than bicycles at that point, and shouldn't be treading on the bicycle legal category. If your e-bike is a moped, there is a category for that. If it's a motorcycle, there's a category for that.

The argument I see being made here is that because our bikes are electric, we shouldn't have to follow the same rules as people with otherwise identical bikes that happen to run on gasoline or propane or corn squeezins do. I think that's a fallacy, unfair to ICE bikers and pedal cyclists alike. Suppose someone builds an electric bike that flies, and then argues that it should be governed by the rules for bicycles instead of the rules for aircraft. In essence, that's the same argument you guys are making. I say: ultra kudos to the guy who does that, but it isn't a bicycle.

You can go as fast as you please on your e-bike, within overall speed limits. But if it goes over 20mph on electric power alone, it's not a bicycle. Use your feet if you want to go faster, or admit it's not a bicycle and meet the requirements for whatever it is.

Your points about speed and safety are not relevant to the issue. You can think it's safer to go faster than a bicycle, but even if true, becoming safer doesn't get a vehicle any closer to being a bicycle if it isn't one. A train is lots safer than a bicycle, but it's not a bicycle. And a vehicle that can hold 30mph consistently while mixing with stop-and-go traffic isn't a bicycle. Even a fit athlete can't do that.

If these EVs are going to exhibit performance uncharacteristic of bicycles, then they need to be categorized as something other than bicycles. At that point, the details of their operators' rights and responsibilities can be set wherever lawmakers/we see fit, without directly affecting real bicycles.

Chalo

 

[HAROX]

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[amberwolf]

Your E-bikes, every one, need LIGHTS.

You mean like all three of mine do? Car or MC headlight, and MC taillight, turn signals, marker lights? Even my "just plain ebike", the Fusin Test bike, has them, because it isn't safe to ride on the roads without them:

(even my pedal bike before I got into motors had them, though I had made them myself out of CCFL units at first, then later from automotive-brightness LEDs, and then a combination of both).

 

[HAROX]

.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

I don't really want an ebike to be recognized as a bicycle. I just want a definition of ebike which matches their possibility: socially, economically, environmentally, etc..

The title of the thread is "If you could reset the speed/power limit what would it be?" In considering this, I thought about what are the legitimate and immediately foreseeable market driven roles for these vehicles. I think in town commuting and medium cargo hauling are two biggies. Both of these are situations in which mingling with 30mph street traffic is critical, adn for this reason I see the ability to safely keep speed is highly relevant.

Some of the points I made in a previous post about the dangers of not keeping speed, I think are legit, and for most people (reflexively) pass the no-duh test. Now, I am not going to bemoan or hazard whether laws were crafted to increase the dangers of ebike (moped, scooter, etc.) adoption, stifle innovation, and hold at bay the unseemly possibility of affordable ebikes clogging the arteries of our streets...however, I am going to do everything in my power to ensure that the ebikes I create are able to achieve the needed speed to keep me safe...because I have two children who need me alive. I think there are solutions well within the law to achieve this, but sometimes not within people's means.

As far as highway speeds like LFP, John in CR, Doctorbass, etc. are pulling off, I support them fully, because I know that in exploring a system, the most insight is to be gleaned studying precisely where and how a system breaks down. They help make ebiking safer for everyone by taking performance to limits which expose the weakest links. Cars didn't just drop out of the sky, but required refinements often from the racetrack to get to where we are today. Am I worried that these guys will ruin ebiking for everyone? No, my feelings are that the market seeking these levels of performance lacks the...um...moxy to try it on a bike based platform and will go with the easy motorcycle options currently availabe.

Have ebikes achieved the refinements necessary to achieve what I would want for them? Clearly not, but ES is at least a place where the state of the DIY art can be refined. Admittedly some ebikes on here may be closer to state of the fart than art, but you have to start somewhere (and yes to lights, brakes, etc. the stuff Harox went off on).

 

[flathill]

Maybe if we had laws where you have 2 first vote the percent to pass
And then vote yeah or neh
Average score on perecent require to pass the law the speed limt should be changed
90%
1ney

war
50.1% minimum to pass that one
Takeover
Poison pill
Intergalatic digital research
DR-DOS
Got taken

We can reset

 

[dogman dan]

Always interesting to see how a thread progresses beyond the original discussion. I think we need some kind of laws, but like the really vague and lax one I ride under. That very vagueness, so far, has allowed me to ride a "moped" on the bike path, with nobody including the cops giving a damn. I have NO specified watt limit, so I can run what I need to get up the hill to home comfy. I only need 1000w for that.

But I can also ride my 3000w dirt bike on the street to where the trails start legaly,provided it can't go faster than 30 mph. Where bikes and ebikes need regulation, like a multi use path, more and more I think a reasonable speed limit is the only workable solution. 15-20 mph for multi use paths, but lower if needed in a congested area. No real sense to a 20 mph speed limit on the streets in my mind. Just limit speeds on bike paths for ALL wheeled vehicles. On the street, you need at least 25-30 mph in many localities. But realisticly, 25 mph on flat ground would be the max to expect a law to allow. Not that many cyclists pedal too much faster. But plenty pedal faster than 20. Downhill of course, the road speed limit is the speed limit.

I think a moped class makes sense, but not a "gotta have a vin number catch 22 law" like floridas. Just a reasonable set of requirements like brakes on both wheels, brake lights, headlight if it's dark, and a valid drivers licence. And moped class should be allowed to go a tad faster, like 35 mph. 50cc motors have improved since 1970. But mostly so they can keep up on 35 mph roads.