I'm reading about too many controller failures

[Matt Gruber]

just a rant.
very disappointing.
i won't be "upgrading" to brushless until they are reliable.

 

[Lowell]

I think it has to do with the way the MOSFETs are insulated, so if you're happy with the stock current limit you can just install the flanged insulators. All you need is a phillips screwdriver and some needle nose pliers.

 

[knightmb]

just a rant.
very disappointing.
i won't be "upgrading" to brushless until they are reliable.

It's disappointing to me as well, but I don't think it has anything with to do with the motor as it does with the controller. I haven't cooked my controller yet, but I haven't run it everywhere on 72 volts yet either. So I'm not going to press my luck just yet....

 

[jondoh]

I would caution against calling all brushless controllers unreliable. I've got nearly 1000 miles on my go-hub with crystalyte controller. Granted this is not the same controller that people have been having problems with (20 amps and much smaller in size physically). Crystalyte makes lots of different controller models. I'd have to say most of them are OK.

 

[Ypedal]

I have not cooked any either, and i have run them at 95v a few times.. 80 all the time.. and everything in between.. i know DOM from australia also runs 100v with lithium ...

There are 1000's of these motor/controller combo's in use daily all around the world..

From what i've seen and read.., if you plug them and run them for a 100 miles without problems.. they will run just fine .. the failures usually happen as soon as they are used.

I'm keeping a very interested eye on this..

 

[Lowell]

I have not cooked any either, and i have run them at 95v a few times.. 80 all the time.. and everything in between.. i know DOM from australia also runs 100v with lithium ...

There are 1000's of these motor/controller combo's in use daily all around the world..

From what i've seen and read.., if you plug them and run them for a 100 miles without problems.. they will run just fine .. the failures usually happen as soon as they are used.

I'm keeping a very interested eye on this..

Agreed, and the failures don't seem to be heat or over current related like what happens when you melt down a MOSFET or two. Any guesses as to how many hubs and controllers have been sold worldwide?

 

[Matt Gruber]

razor sold over 216,000, and i'm about the only fan here. no failures for me. they did a recall on early E300's (i didn't have a CT101) They replaced it with CT201 which i have. The mx500 has a nice one at $19, has a safety relay.

too many failures for THIS small club.

 

[29a]

I agree there are too many crystalyte controller failures BUT I think this is more of a chinese QC problem than anything.
The 48V controllers ive seen use a 55V rated fet (no room for play) and the 72V use a 100V fet (barely a safety margin)
Like anything else for sale there's a lot of bull,hype,lies and ignorance (which is allways a good excuse)

If you know your product u get what u pay for

I do know of suppliers that will only sell the chinese rated 72V controllers as 48V rated and they very rarely fail if used as such.

 

[lemmiwinks]

Agree 100% wtih 29a, plenty of Crystalyte brushless controller failures. It would be a mistake to tar all brushless controllers with the same brush (no puns intended).

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I believe all of the Crystalyte controller failures occurred when running at 72V or above. However I do have to agree with the sentiment that brushless systems are not totally reliable, simply because Hall sensors are delicate electronics implanted in an otherwise bulletproof motor. And you can blindly throw power at a brushed motor to make it work, but I believe that won't work with a brushless motor; you need to alternate current, or something, by looking at the responses you get from the Hall sensors to time it correctly.

 

[lemmiwinks]

Actually a brushless motor is better suited to being overdriven both in terms of voltage and current than a brushed motor. Sure you can do it with a brushed motor, but you can (it's not a foregone conclusion) end up with accelerated brush wear, commutator pitting and overheating. Of course a brushless motor will potentially overheat too, but you certainly won't have the other problems.

 

[xyster]

I believe all of the Crystalyte controller failures occurred when running at 72V or above.

If I recall from the Maytag BMC thread, his new 72V35A model just died when he tried 54 volts.

 

[fechter]

I think it's all in the FETs. I suspect their FET suppier is giving them "factory seconds" or some sub-standard grade for a cheap price. Even if they are "prime" grade, the on resistance and thermal resistance specs are sucky.

I'd still be interested if insulator failure is a significant cause. I don't think anybody has tested for that on a fried one (easy to do).

Look on the bright side, for guys like me that are going to change the FETs anyway, a supply of low cost fried ones is a great resource.

Other than controller issues (which could easily be solved by proper design) the motors themselves are nearly bulletproof. If I ran my stock brushed Vego motor at the same power level as my BMC, the commutator would fry in about 4 blocks.

 

[EbikeMaui]

Other than controller issues (which could easily be solved by proper design) the motors themselves are nearly bulletproof. .

Proper DESIGN and quality componrnts are a must for reliability! But cheap crap from China is all you get. If you want something better there IS ! But at American prices. "built and designed in the USA" or europe. Great motors also do not come from China. The only hub motor/controllers that you guys keep telling me are marketable and made by thhe 1000s Someone is making a great profit off of you. So why should things change?

 

[EbikeMaui]

This double deck circuit board has 4 times the components as a Chineese ebike controller for a good reason.It weighs only 8 ounes and is a 3" square package. It has a 27 amp limiter and will run from 18 to 80 volts. I put over 20.000 miles on one like this without a single failure.Including going up a 10,005 ft high Volcano several times powering a ebike with 300 lbs of gross weight.All the components are Mill Spec. The orriginal design is used in F-18 Fighters where any failure is NOT exceptable. They would cost less than half of the price than I can buy a Crystalyte controller for IF a few hundred were made. If indeed there is a market for quality, smooth, long lasting, efficient, BLDC controllers that have no problem handeling 1600 watts of power why do people insist on Chineese junk ? Is there no dealer that can figure this out? :lol:

 

[BiGH]

god that is a work of art that controller.

I do tend to agree that the controllers included with the crystalite kits are quite sub par.

I was thinking of re-making a one, in a custom case, but might just go for this one insted.

how much do they cost though?

 

[EbikeMaui]

god that is a work of art that controller.

I do tend to agree that the controllers included with the crystalite kits are quite sub par.

I was thinking of re-making a one, in a custom case, but might just go for this one insted.

how much do they cost though?

For design work about 10 grand then about $60. each for 1000 of them. The company will NOT make small batches unless you pay for the design work.Even then 500 units might cost double the price if they will do it at that small volume.
The ones they made me they lost $ making them for about 100. each. plus design work. You can buy a 5 Kw Sevcon BLDC programable controller with regen for $500. which IMO is a good deeal. There may be a few others that you may find if you search vary hard. Most of the companies that make good controllers are making them for large volume customers and for there applications.

 

[BiGH]

hahahhaha sooo expensive. I think I'll just design one myself insted.

sure it would take longer, but it'd be hella interesting, plus my main reasoning behind it was the mounting of a heatsink and reliable components.

programmable controller would be cool, I plan to eventually make one / have one made so i can program it.

A well designed high wattage capable controller would sell rather well I would think

something like a 36v-108v 60a max (i'd rather over-engineer then roll back the specs) controller in a good custom heatsync designed to fit somewhere specific in a bike, like under the rear seat or on the frame somewhere

 

[EbikeMaui]

hahahhaha sooo expensive. I think I'll just design one myself insted.

sure it would take longer, but it'd be hella interesting, plus my main reasoning behind it was the mounting of a heatsink and reliable components.

programmable controller would be cool, I plan to eventually make one / have one made so i can program it.

A well designed high wattage capable controller would sell rather well I would think

something like a 36v-108v 60a max (i'd rather over-engineer then roll back the specs) controller in a good custom heatsync designed to fit somewhere specific in a bike, like under the rear seat or on the frame somewhere

That's the Ol DYI go at it that that the available ebikes need to work decent.For the performance of available ebikes or kits the cost is a joke for what you get.New cars will soon have electronic goodies you can get cheap at junkyards for ebike DYIers.Right now ebike systems are in the dark ages.

 

[fechter]

That's the Ol DYI go at it that that the available ebikes need to work decent.For the performance of available ebikes or kits the cost is a joke for what you get.New cars will soon have electronic goodies you can get cheap at junkyards for ebike DYIers.Right now ebike systems are in the dark ages.

I'll second that thought.

Just look at RC controllers. They're way more advanced than a Crystalyte controller. The few really good controllers that are actually available are prohibitively expensive.

I'm still waiting for cheap used Prius batteries. The prices seem to have gone up!

 

[knoxie]

This double deck circuit board has 4 times the components as a Chineese ebike controller for a good reason.It weighs only 8 ounes and is a 3" square package. It has a 27 amp limiter and will run from 18 to 80 volts. I put over 20.000 miles on one like this without a single failure.Including going up a 10,005 ft high Volcano several times powering a ebike with 300 lbs of gross weight.All the components are Mill Spec. The orriginal design is used in F-18 Fighters where any failure is NOT exceptable. They would cost less than half of the price than I can buy a Crystalyte controller for IF a few hundred were made. If indeed there is a market for quality, smooth, long lasting, efficient, BLDC controllers that have no problem handeling 1600 watts of power why do people insist on Chineese junk ? Is there no dealer that can figure this out? :lol:

I totally agree with you on this point Randy, some of the Chinese controllers and hub motors are piss poor in quality, but they are cheap however the controller issue is one that does need addressing, whats the spec on your controller it sounds interesting, can you post pictures and maybe details of where we could get one from? price and availability, I vaguely remember seeing a picture of it on v is for virus.

Cheers

Knoxie

 

[Matt Gruber]

i've never had a failure.
.
razor makes good quality. $19 brush

 

[EbikeMaui]

This double deck circuit board has 4 times the components as a Chineese ebike controller for a good reason.It weighs only 8 ounes and is a 3" square package. It has a 27 amp limiter and will run from 18 to 80 volts. I put over 20.000 miles on one like this without a single failure.Including going up a 10,005 ft high Volcano several times powering a ebike with 300 lbs of gross weight.All the components are Mill Spec. The orriginal design is used in F-18 Fighters where any failure is NOT exceptable. They would cost less than half of the price than I can buy a Crystalyte controller for IF a few hundred were made. If indeed there is a market for quality, smooth, long lasting, efficient, BLDC controllers that have no problem handeling 1600 watts of power why do people insist on Chineese junk ? Is there no dealer that can figure this out? :lol:

I totally agree with you on this point Randy, some of the Chinese controllers and hub motors are piss poor in quality, but they are cheap however the controller issue is one that does need addressing, whats the spec on your controller it sounds interesting, can you post pictures and maybe details of where we could get one from? price and availability, I vaguely remember seeing a picture of it on v is for virus.

Cheers

Knoxie

Unfortunatly great controllers need costom design work and need to be made in volume to get a great price.FYI the Programable Sevcon controllers with regen are rated at 5 kw and will provide a great response for testing many BLDC motors at $500. a pop. But doubt that they will ever POP! and they ARE available 1 at a time.IMO these would be the ones to use if you do want QUALITY and LONGEVITY . It takes much more than high quality fets.It takes ADVANCED DESIGN WORK!!!
Bionix whimpy controllers cost $1000. Go FIGURE ! ???

 

[eP]

It takes much more than high quality fets.It takes ADVANCED DESIGN WORK!!!
Bionix whimpy controllers cost $1000. Go FIGURE ! ???

$1000 = $900 Bionix Logo + $100 High quality fets + high quality drivers + high quality layout (ADVANCED DESIGN)

 

[Lowell]

I didn't mind the BionX system I tried. For a pedal assist, low power bolt on kit it does the job. Not my cup of tea, but at least BionX has products on the market instead of a lot of talk.