Innexpensive, federally legal trikes?

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

I just struck a deal with KMX for 3 older model (2006) X class trikes, new in the box. I have also been talking to Astro Flight about brushed motors, controllers, and throttles already built for E-bike use. I have one of those Astro setups coming my way to test.

Anyway, these two purchases are for research into relatively low cost (well under $3K) electric trikes to build and sell. I have had a few emails asking for lower power output drives that conform to the federal 750 watt (at the rear wheel) 20mph restriction.

My question to you guys is;

What do you think the interest level is for these or similar setups? High power, high dollar setups will always get attention. But, I am curious to know the realistic market for something like this, especially if it can be offered under $3K, maybe even as low as $2,500 ready to ride.

Thoughts?

Matt

 

[spinningmagnets]

Danny over at ampedbikes is pretty adamant about selling federally legal 20-MPH kits at affordable prices. But...he sells them wound for 36V, even though he knows 90% of his customers upgrade to 48V+ for higher top-speed.

There was an entire sub-culture of teens in SoCal during the early 1990's that hot-rodded Honda Civics. Though the stock 4-cyl made about 100-HP, the crank and transmission are well-known to take 500-HP with no damage. This means a big financial saving to teens bent on hot-rodding (turbo/nitrous, etc) and a certain ease of effort, as all mods were isolated to the upper half of the engine.

I've noticed that more bikes are coming from the factory with disc brake flanges, even if that model only has V-brakes. This makes a disc upgrade on the front easy and much cheaper. Otherwise, you'd have to order new forks, or involve some welding.

What I've been getting at is when you choose components for the package, new owners may not even realize which upgrades they will want later. Using a SRAM/Nexus/S-A hub as a transmission, 750W can easily provide a much higher top speed than 20-MPH (2-freewheel duo-drive?). Perhaps calculate which one would be the most desirable to add, and advertise that your trikes are plug-and-play for the model "X" hub.

You have a lot more experience than most others at upgrades, so it may be useful for your own reference to list and ponder "likely" mods (changing volts from 36V to 48V, from 48V to 72V), and add such info as "we use the "Y" motor, but the larger "Z" motor is a drop-in". You could write that the larger motor and/or transmission is for those who want to tow kids/dogs/groceries at 20-mph...but we all know why someone wants a bigger motor (wink!)

Recumbents are popular with older guys (back, wrists, and crotch hurt from TdF seating), who often have a home-equity-loan at their disposal. Even so, they still shop for a good deal price-wise, and have time to do research. I believe an electric recumbent bike is the best therapeutic tool for old knees that need strengthening.

 

[grwsaltspring]

Hi Matt;

Personally I think you are on the right track, if I understand what you are saying. IE modestly priced legal electric/hybrid trikes, but that have a built in upgrade capability.

At least that is the direction that I'm interested in taking the concept for myself. I don't need to go as fast as your hot rod KMX, but I do know that the legal e bikes speeds are of little interest to me. I want to be able to go faster particularly up hills, but avoid getting into paying insurance and licensing fees etc.

Additionally, I'm interested in developing a canopy of sorts that could be easily attached for rainy weather, making the trike into a 3 season vehicle at the very least.

Just my .02 cents worth.

Greg

 

[gogo]

I think Rassy has written about situations where he just wanted to go the pace of the other people pedaling in his group.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Hey Guys,
Anyway, these two purchases are for research into relatively low cost (well under $3K) electric trikes to build and sell. I have had a few emails asking for lower power output drives that conform to the federal 750 watt (at the rear wheel) 20mph restriction.

Thoughts?

Matt

Marcus pi ebike told me one of the main reasons he chose to use right side drive with geared hubs is that with a 750 watt legal setup (less in Europe) that using gears was the only way he felt he could get acceptable hill climbing (25% grades) and 20mph performance. And with an RC solution using the right side and gears (hub or derailleur) doesn't add that much complexity.

You could meet the limit 750 watt limit with Richard's throttle interface (or similar) and the 20mph with gearing. An Astro 3210 with an HV65 limited to 750 watts would be a really bullet proof solution. You could save about $200 with a 840M Astro 40 (list $179.95) but it might be worth the extra money to use a more robust motor.

If you think there might be a demand design a rough solution or a couple of solutions, announce them and see what kind of response you get.

Additionally, I'm interested in developing a canopy of sorts that could be easily attached for rainy weather, making the trike into a 3 season vehicle at the very least.

I think a trike with rain/wind/snow protection would make for a much more useful vehicle. If I could drive one in the rain I could replace one of our cars with an etrike.

Something with the weather protection of the Lorax Hauler:

 

[etard]

Now I think you are getting into the price range where a new-comer to ebikes might not gasp at sticker shock. or even a potential new customer gasp and scatter off never thinking twice. I agree that it should be easily upgradeable, perhaps even a system where the old parts can be traded up on a sliding scale. I think $3K is the perfect pricepoint before the consumer considers other options.

At 750w I guess you could focus your efforts on range and efficiency, but a canopy would definately be an add on option. Only .02% of the bicycling population ever go out in rain, sleet, or snow. So don't waste time or money catering to this particular market.

Just my .02 for what it's worth.

Just curious though, does that include the batteries and charger? Lipo? What kinda range would you be getting?

 

[wildharemtbkr]

Hi Matt, I really like the products you have been making, I think you have beeen on the right track all along. I, like you, like the 18 horsepower, but that is not how everybody may see it. I think if you build it they will sell. How hard is it to make say 3kw, with a switch to make it legal? 4 horse for when the conditions allow , 1 for when(if?) the law tests ? That way you can advertise "legal", and they can hop it up themselves.

I do hate the thought of the day when BICYCLES are under the same socialist juridiction that most other modes of transportation are under. That is the beauty of the electric bicycle right now, bypass all the government beauracracy, enjoy a little of what the founders(USA) envisioned, a little freedom and prosperity.

The beauty of the RC system is the bike can still be a bike, not a 70 pound hunk of crap. I want a full suspension mtb in the 45 lb range with 4kw or so. quiet,fast, healthy, fun and possible. So thanks for the R&D I appreciate it. I also appreciate your capitolist mentality, our country would be better off if more of us thought like you. Randy

 

[AussieJester]

Personally i think anything you fabricate will sell Matt, the level of professionalism in your work sells itself regardless
of the legalities this is backed up by the number of high powered e-bikes you have already sold!

A 750watt trike could be 'stocked' in any bike shop across America, would be invaluable advertising for your work so thats bonus right there i guess, you will HAVE to go fulltime soon mate no more repairing appliances :: wink ::

I would like to see you continue to push the limits though Matt but thats me and as above poster mentions not all think like us, the "legal" ebikes are dime a dozen, the unique high powered bikes you design are simply mechanical pr0n to anyone with even a passing interest in anything mechanical that moves on wheelz!


Best of luck mate

KiM

 

[jmygann]

I am one of those looking for a "legal" trike. I just want a vehicle to get to town and back.

My ideal would be a 48 volt - 750 +-watt motor into a Miles/ SRAM 3 speed hub .. 24 in rear tire ...in a tadpole trike

would be nice to get to 30 mph to keep up with city traffic.

If you sold it as a kit or trike only with add on's. , your legal liability would not be an issue

What would be a better motor than Miles has on his Moulton ?

I thought Miles was into experimenting with a RC motor in his set up ?? Is the Alternator/Motor not an option Matt ??

 

[recumpence]

A couple things to consider on this;

For anything to be mass marketted as a legal system, it must be designed and sold as legal without a simple switch or shunt to bypass to make it legal. Actually, a couple individual restrictions combined would be needed to "Prove in court" (if it ever came to that) that this is a street legal bike that the customer went to great lengths to modify. Of course, a bike that is sold as "Not for street use" is another option. It is up to the customer to break the law and ride it on the road.

The best way for upgreadeability of these is merely a new motor and controller that would bolt right up.

I am not, so much, looking for large production numbers, but for a few sales of street legal trikes that can whet peoples' appetite for electric transport that is very safe and easy to use. The only issue I have with the high power stuff I have been building is letting others ride them. I have to go through a whole disclaimer "Ok, becareful with this. Do not do this, do not do that, if this happens, do this to stop it." Etc. With a lower power trike I could merely plug in the pack and say "Here is the throttle, and here are the brakes. Go have fun!" without any worry of them hurting themselves when they smack the throttle and it launches like a freakin banshee!

Kim, no worries, Mate. Wait till you see the next trike! It will still be running twin 3220s. But, I have learned a whole lot more about getting performance from these motors and drive units. Right now that big trike accellerates like a Mustang. The new trike I am building for next season will accellerate more like a Vette on nitrous.

Power is a very good thing........... :wink:

Matt

 

[spinningmagnets]

22.2V LiPo @ 35A esc = 777W

Can an esc have something permanently attached to the output to limit it to 33A ? (733W) Clearly battery volts and esc would be easy to upgrade, and the stock parts have a large customer base with which to easily re-sell to the RC hobby market...

 

[AussieJester]

Kim, no worries, Mate. Wait till you see the next trike! It will still be running twin 3220s. But, I have learned a whole lot more about getting performance from these motors and drive units. Right now that big trike accellerates like a Mustang. The new trike I am building for next season will accellerate more like a Vette on nitrous.

Power is a very good thing........... :wink:

Matt

WoooHoooo...this should be your NUMBER 1 priority IMHO LoL lil disappointed in the use of only 2 motors 4 sounds better off the tongue LOL.. but i trust my jaw will hit the keyboard when i watch the video of the beast ...best of luck Matt...oH and with the legal trikes too

KiM

 

[paultrafalgar]

...
My question to you guys is;

What do you think the interest level is for these or similar setups? High power, high dollar setups will always get attention. But, I am curious to know the realistic market for something like this, especially if it can be offered under $3K, maybe even as low as $2,500 ready to ride.

Thoughts?

Matt

Bullseye! Exactly the way to go, Matt. Including all the other's suggestions about upgradability. The only suggestion I would add is to offer a conversion kit as well as the whole deal, in order to cut transportation costs (e.g. to the UK :wink: ) with a Youtube video on how to assemble the kit.

 

[jmygann]

My vote would be for a "legal" tadpole with front aerodynamics.

Maybe like ..... A Bug E with pedals and 1000 Watt assist (50V x20amps) ...http://www.bugev.net/BugE_Design_Concept.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKoi9aQO6Co

or like exertrike .... http://www.exertrike.com/photo_galleries/ExerCar_slide_show/index.html

or ... a rainshadow type cover ...http://www.lightfootcycles.com/rainshadow.htm

or a runaboutcycle .. http://www.runaboutcycles.com/main/image/tid/1

with a legal speed of 20 mph a lot of mature adults may be interested in such a trike ....

a shell makes it much more visable

http://www.rbr.info/store/rbr-aergo.html

 

[jmygann]

what are the rim sizes on those trikes ?

On a 24" rear wheel with a 3 speed SRAM DD hub and a 92T composite sprocket and an 11T motor sprocket , will a 1000 watt motor (50V @ 20 amps) propel the bike to the legal speed of 20 mph ??

On Randy's bike he states ... "(Sram Dual Drive 3 speed hub) in common with the motor, pedals and derailer gears, on a separate freewheel will go (up to 33mph top speed) for 26 miles with no pedaling. You could go for 35 miles plus, with some pedaling on 14 amp hour (agm) batteries on any terrain round trip. The motor or pedal gearing is fully adjustable for speeds up to 35mph.The motor and controller will operate to 1000 watts at 36 volts (2000 rpm free spinning) or 1250 watts at 48 volts (2600 rpm free spinning). A single motor reduction of 8 to 1 on a 26" wheel (at 48 volts) will take you (22 mph top speed) on a 100 lb. bike with a 160 lb. rider, at a average round trip speed of 17,5 mph for 26 miles with no pedaling. At a average trip speed of 17.5 mph you can get 1 mile per 18.5 watt hour.1 amp hour will get you 2.6 miles at 48 volts

Maybe a "sweet spot" for the motor at 25-30 mph in third gear on a 24" rim/tire @ 48-50 volts ??

Can you build that ?

Hey Guys,

I just struck a deal with KMX for 3 older model (2006) X class trikes, new in the box. I have also been talking to Astro Flight about brushed motors, controllers, and throttles already built for E-bike use. I have one of those Astro setups coming my way to test.

Anyway, these two purchases are for research into relatively low cost (well under $3K) electric trikes to build and sell. I have had a few emails asking for lower power output drives that conform to the federal 750 watt (at the rear wheel) 20mph restriction.

My question to you guys is;

What do you think the interest level is for these or similar setups? High power, high dollar setups will always get attention. But, I am curious to know the realistic market for something like this, especially if it can be offered under $3K, maybe even as low as $2,500 ready to ride.

Thoughts?

Matt

 

[recumpence]

Yes, that should be plenty doable. My guess would be 20wh per mile at 20mph without any pedalling. I would assume it would be better than that. But, I think this is plenty doable.

I spoke with Bob from Astro Flight today about high efficiency brushed motors and controllers. He is sending me a Cobalt 60 series motor with a helical cut 3 to 1 gear reduction mounted to it. That will, in turn, drive my single stage reduction. I think it will be plenty reliable and relatively efficient.

Oh, I got my Catrike yesterday. I am building it today.

VERY nice trike!

Matt

 

[snowranger]

How does the service life of the brushed cobalt motor compare to the brushless 3200 series? They also have a note on the website to lubricate superbox gears after each hour of flight time. Would that be the case with your gearbox?

 

[recumpence]

A couple considerations on this;

The service life of any brushed motor will be limited (brush life, not overall motor life per-se). But, brushes are very easy to change on these motors.

Also, the motors were designed for airplane use originally. In an airplane, the motor would be run at full throttle almost all the time. However, is a bike, the motor will be at partial throttle most of the time it is running, and it will be shut off for maybe half the time under most use anyway for pedalling and down hill riding.

So, brush life and gear life should be longer in a bike than an airplane, I would assume.

Lastly, these motors have been used in E-bike applications in the past. They seemed to work fine according to Bob. We shall see, though. I have no problem posting negative comments if they do not work well for our application.

Oh, one other thing, brushed controllers are FAR cheaper than brushless. Don't get me wrong, I am still a die-hard brushless guy. But, for a bargain, street legal system, this may be the way to go!

We shall see soon enough..........

I will be making a 3210 brushless drive and a 960 brushed drive for my Catrike to compare.

Matt

 

[swbluto]

Oh, one other thing, brushed controllers are FAR cheaper than brushless. Don't get me wrong, I am still a die-hard brushless guy. But, for a bargain, street legal system, this may be the way to go!
Matt

Indeed, for high power levels, it may be one of the cheapest ways into the "ligthweight relatively high-power" scene that's associated with RC motors.

But... one thing that I haven't cleared about brushed motors... what's the power density of brushed motors? It seems like brushed RC motors are huge compared to an outrunner of a similar power output, and huge in terms of weight and size. Can you clear up this misconception if it is one? Do you have a link to a brushed RC motor?

Ok, I got some numbers at http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=128&zenid=0cr3ghb7div7e9q60lcktvnm5gl05vru

It appears to be two pounds, has a diameter of 2 inches and a length of nearly 4 inches and has a continuous rating of 1.2 kW. Although a poor representative of outrunner motors, the HXT 80-100 has a continuous capability of 4 kW, and has a length around 4 inches and diameter around 3 inches and weighs about 3 lbs. It seems like a brushless outrunner has nearly twice to thrice the power density, volumetrically and mass-wise, but a brushed is still fairly light-weight compared to hub motors that are comparable in terms of continuous power capability, and still has awesome low-end performance compared to a direct-drive hub motor.

I've heard one of the main power limiting factors of a brushed is the temperature which can cause the glue that holds the brushes to come loose and the brushes fall off (or pulled off). Maybe astro's design doesn't use glue for retention?

 

[recumpence]

True Astro brushed motors do not use glue for their brushes. They are in slide tubes that are mechanically attached, not glued.

These brushed motors may not work well, but they just might.

We will see soon enough.

Matt

 

[amberwolf]

I suspect that he didn't mean the *brushes* were glued in, but rather the *commutator segments*.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

federally legal trikes?

If legality is the issue making them legal motorcycles might be a solution. There was a company that was planning to convert 3 wheel ATV's to street legal by registering them as motorcycles in CA. A little while later the state made it almost impossible to make ATV's street legal due to air pollution issues but etrikes would probably be doable.

How do I obtain a license plate for my ATV?
There are a number of ways to obtain a license plate for an ATV in the state of California. If you own or operate an agricultural business, you may acquire a license plate with four wheels and the addition of safety lighting as outlined by the California Highway Patrol. There are restrictions for operation with this type of license, please check with the DMV and the CHP for details. Ask for CHP forms 885 and 892 which have the detailed requirements for automobiles.

For those that wish not to have the agricultural restrictions or do not qualify, you are left with a decision to comply with automotive or motorcycle requirements. Automotive requirements include 5 mph bumpers, safety restraint system and safety glass windshield among other things that make it impractical to choose this path with an ATV.

If you choose the motorcycle path, you must alter the ATV to fit the description of 3 wheels or less in contact with the ground. This is a link to the CHP website that outlines some of the requirements. You will also need to have a copy of form CHP 888, which outlines the specific requirements and will be available at this site in the near future.

Where can I find ... ?
All lighting and tires need to be DOT approved. There are many sources for DOT approved lighting available either from your local motorcycle shop or the internet. The Raptor's lights were acquired from Baja designs, knowledgeable and easy to work with. Check them out at http://www.bajadesigns.com/ .

CA DMV:

What is a motorcycle?
A motorcycle is a vehicle whose motor displaces more than 150 cubic centimeters and has a seat or saddle for the use of the rider. It is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground and weighs less than 1,500 pounds.

A motor-driven cycle is a motorcycle whose motor displaces less than 150 cubic centimeters.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

Oh, one other thing, brushed controllers are FAR cheaper than brushless. Don't get me wrong, I am still a die-hard brushless guy. But, for a bargain, street legal system, this may be the way to go!

We shall see soon enough..........

I will be making a 3210 brushless drive and a 960 brushed drive for my Catrike to compare.

Matt

http://www.astroflight.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=9
The list price of the 960 motors are $300 (960 Cobalt 60 Direct Drive Motor) to $360 (960S Cobalt 60 Motor with Superbox).

Castle HV85's sell for about $180 and the HV45's sell for about $140. So compared to a 3210 for $400 (saves about $60) and the brushed controller for about $90 (?) the total savings (roughly $120 I think) seems fairly modest vs a much heavier duty brushless 3210.

 

[recumpence]

Yes, but there is a pretty steep markup on these motors compared to a 3210s. :wink:

Matt

 

[jmygann]

for the "legal trike" , I propose either this one ...

or .. this one ..

Preferably with a 24" rear