Innotrace X1 Controller.

[technotony007]

I have been building the ebike below over the past year.
It is made up of :

Bafang M620 motor
Vapour frame
fox factory 36 folk with 160mm travel
Fox float rear shock 190 x 50 , 160mm travel
Hunt Ebike wheels
ergon seat
hope Brakes ( discs and calipers
basic tank bag for hold battery .
nukeproof pedals

I sent the Motor away to INNOTRACE germany (from uk) ,for the 3kw upgrade. which was a bit of a debarkle as the i had to pay import Tax both ways, So i ended up paying over a £1000 , on return !

I fitted the X2 Display and purchased the tuning doggle.

The peformance in open mode ( i.e. full power ) is great , but i am finding the batteries packs i am using ( 52v 20ah) are only lasting about 10 to 12 miles. I believe each pack i have uses 18650's which are 5000 mah , in a 14s ,4P pack assemblies.

The symptoms i am having was the batteries where getting hot , and the BMS's thermal cut outs where kicking in. So i opened each battery pack up and inspected the BMS's. these appeared to fitted with a 20 amp and 35 amp units. I then purchased two 60 amp units off ali baba express and fitted them.

No the only issue is i am only getting 10 to 12 miles when i go out for blast. I rarlely use the Thumb throttle, and this is mainly with pedal assist.

Please can anyone share there thoughts and idea's for more power ,etc ? Maybe suggest a better solution from there own experience with battery kits they have purchase or made up themselves.

I have been at LiitoKala 26650 , 5000mah Li-ion 50A units. think these might give a better range if i was to make up two 30ah Batteries.

I have seen a a few 8000mah batteries , and a 12000mah batteries too , but i dont quite trust the capacity rating for some reason.

Any thoughts , on your experiences with the Bafang M620 motors , with upgraded controller Battery setups and reliabilty setups would be much appreciated,

love the bike bit if i cant work out a practical solution for it , i think i am going to sell it

 

[lnanek]

The conventional way to increase battery duration at the same usage is to simply wire up more cells in parallel. So if your current battery is 16S4P, buy or build a 16S8P battery instead. It's best to use brand name cells like Samsung and LG, and if you do, you won't run into the fake ridiculous capacities issue.

 

[E-HP]

The peformance in open mode ( i.e. full power ) is great , but i am finding the batteries packs i am using ( 52v 20ah) are only lasting about 10 to 12 miles. I believe each pack i have uses 18650's which are 5000 mah , in a 16s ,4P pack assemblies.

52V of lithium ion cells would be 14S. 4P would only be 14Ah using the highest capacities for 18650 lithium ion cells, which is 3500mAh. High capacity cells have lower discharge rates (8-10A). The 35A BMS is beyond what the pack is capable of already, so going to 60A will just kill your battery faster.

If the pack is comprised of 21700 cells instead of 18650, then the 5000mAh capacity is feasible. The cells with that capacity have discharge ratings of around 10A. If this is the case, then the 35A BMS might be about right, with legitimate brand named cells.

Figure out exactly what your current pack is comprised of, number of cells, cell type, and what you want to get from the pack first. All of those fake capacities tell me you are looking at a bunch of junk cells.

 

[technotony007]

The conventional way to increase battery duration at the same usage is to simply wire up more cells in parallel. So if your current battery is 16S4P, buy or build a 16S8P battery instead. It's best to use brand name cells like Samsung and LG, and if you do, you won't run into the fake ridiculous capacities issue.

The battery packs i have are 14s 4p , The 16 S was a typo. I looked at the cells when i opened the pack and it no trace on a manufacturers ID. which is dissappointing on one hand. But hopefully i can find something reputable , but i think its going to expensive. Any suggestions.

 

[technotony007]

52V of lithium ion cells would be 14S. 4P would only be 14Ah using the highest capacities for 18650 lithium ion cells, which is 3500mAh. High capacity cells have lower discharge rates (8-10A). The 35A BMS is beyond what the pack is capable of already, so going to 60A will just kill your battery faster.

If the pack is comprised of 21700 cells instead of 18650, then the 5000mAh capacity is feasible. The cells with that capacity have discharge ratings of around 10A. If this is the case, then the 35A BMS might be about right, with legitimate brand named cells.

Figure out exactly what your current pack is comprised of, number of cells, cell type, and what you want to get from the pack first. All of those fake capacities tell me you are looking at a bunch of junk cells.

I am limit to the Innotrace Controller as you cant go higher than 52v with it. 21700 cells sound feasible , but i wonder which are the best ones to get ? As i have a larger 60A wires fitted to motor and i can reuse the BMS's (60A) i can save a bit more money, so the main cost will be the Cellss ?

 

[E-HP]

I am limit to the Innotrace Controller as you cant go higher than 52v with it. 21700 cells sound feasible , but i wonder which are the best ones to get ? As i have a larger 60A wires fitted to motor and i can reuse the BMS's (60A) i can save a bit more money, so the main cost will be the Cellss ?

If I were to guess, I'd say your existing pack is probably only 10Ah, which is more inline with the mileage you are getting. It's more likely that your range would be double what you are getting if you were only using pedal assist with a 20Ah pack. The battery is the most important part of a build, and it appears that yours is not close to being on par with the rest of the components you've selected. Take your time to do the research. The battery subforum has a lot of good info.

 

[technotony007]

If I were to guess, I'd say your existing pack is probably only 10Ah, which is more inline with the mileage you are getting. It's more likely that your range would be double what you are getting if you were only using pedal assist with a 20Ah pack. The battery is the most important part of a build, and it appears that yours is not close to being on par with the rest of the components you've selected. Take your time to do the research. The battery subforum has a lot of good info.

Thanks E-HP, I was ponder that myself, as i had worked on the basis of 1ah per mile. But then again i dont know the actual power draw the uprated motor is Drawing. I believed that this upgrade went from 1500w , 160 Nm of torque to 3000w , 240Nm of torque. I dont feel confident to buy a complete battery pack of rating 20 to 30 Ah , as its a bit of Gamble what you actually you are getting.

Think i will go with the option , of building a 20 to 30 ah pack myself. The next question i hope to be answered is which are the best , reliable Cells to use ?

Any suggestions anyone ?

current thoughts point to iitoKala 26650 , 5000mah Li-ion cell , A 14s, 4P setup...... if anyone has any experience with these or can suggest a Samsumg or LG better option , please let me know.

 

[E-HP]

The frame a motor look like they are designed to accept some sort of battery pack on the downtube. Can you obtain the compatible battery case?

 

[fizzit]

I’m using the same motor and frame with all throttle, no pedal assist, and I get around 30wh/mile. My riding is all on the street so we can’t really compare directly, but I think your battery is way overrated. If you were really using 100wh/mile I think your motor would have fried by now.

Overall it’s been very reliable. I’m running 16s with a Phaserunner and I’ve had no issues except the motor is a bit loud.

 

[Bengy22]

Nice looking bike, I wouldn't go as far as selling it though! Just seems like the battery isn't adequate and once you fix that it will be great. So first off based on the previous information given on your current battery I would say it definitely can't handle the 60a your motor is pulling and it's hurting the capacity or the seller lied about the true capacity. I have a 65a bbshd which should be fairly comparable and even with my 16ah battery I can get a good 20ish miles of straight hammering the throttle everywhere, easily doubled when I slow down and add some pedal assist during the ride. But the main reason I can tell is that the cells heating up so much the bms is cutting in is borderline dangerous but at the very least heat kills cells and their capacity. And that heat is also a sign that the cells are being pushed way past their design or amp rating. And further more the fact that the batteries had 20a and 35a bms's means that they were not designed with high discharge in mind. What this means is the company that made them didn't just put a low amp bms but things like the wiring and connections to the cells are likely also not rated for the high discharge and are underrated and heating up and adding to that overall high temps. For example a very common way to connect cells (at least for budget low discharge) is to have 1 piece of nickel that's usually rated for around 7a-10a max per series connection when built in a standard shape so you likely have 4, if you have a weird shape this usually is less as its harder to arrange the cells as good. That means your series connections are likely also only rated for up to 40a which means they are heating up a fair amount as well. But going back to the cells I assume you actually have 21700's based off the 4p 5ah cells (although it could be likely these have fake ratings considering you couldn't tell yourself and where ever you bought the battery if reputable should have listed this) that means these cells need to have a 15a rating which not a lot of 21700 5ah have unless you go for top of the line cells. But again based off the overheating I'm guessing there are not.

Now the best option and practical thing to do is buy a battery that has the spec's that fits and is from a reputable source or build one yourself. If you are up to building you have a few decisions to make. First is how many cells do you want to use, right now with the 14s4p that's fairly big but if you have enough room you could do 5p which would give you more capacity and also lower the amps per cell but of course it will raise the cost, weight, size and difficulty in design. It's really up to you on what you want to do but I would say don't go under 14s4p imo, and usually the cost of adding another 1p of cells isn't that much more as some of the main expenses of building a battery (bms, spot welder, nickel, copper, wire etc) will not change so its something to think about. Second would be the cells to use, this will depend on the amount of parallel cells you have but assuming you stick with the 4p that's 15a discharge each. It's mostly recommended you don't push the cells to their max amp rating as this can cause heat and capacity loss but I assume with the x1 you likely are not hitting the 60a for very long as the m620 would over heat so I would say 15a cells are fine. But it's worth noting again that the max rating or close to it with cells will not provide their rated capacity, will likely heat up more and also will have a lower life span (amount of cycles before they lose say 20% of rated capacity). As an example a good independent battery tester "Mooch" has tested a lot of cells and for example he tested a Samsung 50s (5ah 25a discharge) Molicel p45b (4.5ah 45a discharge) and Molicel p42a (4.2ah 40a discharge). When comparing the cells in that order at 10a he got 13.7wh, 13.1wh, 12.2wh which is already pretty close in capacity with the first two but up that to 20a and he got 11.4wh, 12.2wh, 10.4wh. This is just to say you have to look at the capacity at the amperage you will use it at, because as you can see even though the 50s is 11% more capacity rated at 10a its only 4.5% more and when at 20a the p45b actually has 7% more capacity. And lastly I would recommend going with a bms that's rated slightly over 60a or one that's close to the true possible discharge of the pack and that is bluetooth. The bluetooth is such a great feature, you can see state of charge, charge and discharge rate, individual cell group voltages, overall capacity and more. Really wonderful tool for everyday use like making sure the pack is balanced and also for trouble shooting if an issue arises.

Another thing to mention is make sure your series connections can handle the power, those little nickel (make sure to get and test for pure nickel, shady sells pass off nickel plated as fully nickel whish isn't as conductive) cannot usually handle more than 10a and like I said you should design the pack around at least 60a so you will need to double up on the connections or do the "copper nickel sandwich" method. Building your series connections as well as you can reduces internal resistance of the battery which means less heat on those connections and less voltage sag so more power!

As for battery choice I personally would stick to name brands. I have heard of those cells before and I've seen good and bad opinions on them. Personally if it was my bike I wouldn't use them. The fact alone you need to purchase them from a sketchy vender and then test each cell to make sure you're not getting ripped off isn't fun (and I bet getting a refund if you did also isn't fun) but their capacity for the size isn't very good anymore in an age where 5.8ah 21700's are starting to appear. I guess the main advantage would be price but one of the main complaints I saw was they don't age well and lose capacity and sag bad so I would argue that the cheapest option can be the most expensive in the long run. For name brand 21700's though the three I listed above get my recommendation. Molicel p42a's are widely regarded as the best all around 21700 cell for the money, good capacity but not class leading, high discharge and also being a budget cell. Samsung 50s is one of the best of the best for capacity and discharge, but the cell is starting to show its age (25a) but it's still a very good cell and seems to run mid-high when it comes to price. Molicel p45B just came out this year and is the best do it all cell, high capacity and very high discharge with other things like very low internal resistance and very high charge rates, but you pay for that with a very high price tag. Overall if your budget is the most important thing its really hard to look past the p42a's, slightly lower capacity but priced well and you could even add another 1p group to get more capacity than a 50s pack and still be cheaper but larger though. The samsung 50s is really the class leader for your needs as at 15a discharge at 4p the p45b still hasn't taken its spot like it would at 20a+ but it's also a good bit cheaper, if you really want to build the best battery while also keeping size and weight down this is the cell if your wallet can take it. I personally wouldn't look at the p45b for your needs, plus early adopter fees are very high right now.

 

[technotony007]

The frame a motor look like they are designed to accept some sort of battery pack on the downtube. Can you obtain the compatible battery case?

If does accept a few different types of cases. I have modified the frame since the photo above to suit a larger battery case, see below :






but with the ones that were designed for it , didnt have much range either as below , I most out the ones have purchased have all had the shorter range of 13 miles tops.



Hence i riped thoses batteries , tried bigger Bms's , i am just replying on the tank bag for now, until i find the suited battery type , then i will try to graft them into suitable size case.

 

[technotony007]

I’m using the same motor and frame with all throttle, no pedal assist, and I get around 30wh/mile. My riding is all on the street so we can’t really compare directly, but I think your battery is way overrated. If you were really using 100wh/mile I think your motor would have fried by now.

Overall it’s been very reliable. I’m running 16s with a Phaserunner and I’ve had no issues except the motor is a bit loud.

I think my setup is different you Fizzit, Phaserunner would of been my preferred option at first, but as they were in short supply i went with Innotrace. The power cables into the Bafang unit I have are different. Instead of the anderson connectors , I have two 60A cables fitted and a XT90. Hopefully i believed this would stop anything from frying.

Did you make the battery yourself or buy one complete ?

 

[technotony007]

Nice looking bike, I wouldn't go as far as selling it though! Just seems like the battery isn't adequate and once you fix that it will be great. So first off based on the previous information given on your current battery I would say it definitely can't handle the 60a your motor is pulling and it's hurting the capacity or the seller lied about the true capacity. I have a 65a bbshd which should be fairly comparable and even with my 16ah battery I can get a good 20ish miles of straight hammering the throttle everywhere, easily doubled when I slow down and add some pedal assist during the ride. But the main reason I can tell is that the cells heating up so much the bms is cutting in is borderline dangerous but at the very least heat kills cells and their capacity. And that heat is also a sign that the cells are being pushed way past their design or amp rating. And further more the fact that the batteries had 20a and 35a bms's means that they were not designed with high discharge in mind. What this means is the company that made them didn't just put a low amp bms but things like the wiring and connections to the cells are likely also not rated for the high discharge and are underrated and heating up and adding to that overall high temps. For example a very common way to connect cells (at least for budget low discharge) is to have 1 piece of nickel that's usually rated for around 7a-10a max per series connection when built in a standard shape so you likely have 4, if you have a weird shape this usually is less as its harder to arrange the cells as good. That means your series connections are likely also only rated for up to 40a which means they are heating up a fair amount as well. But going back to the cells I assume you actually have 21700's based off the 4p 5ah cells (although it could be likely these have fake ratings considering you couldn't tell yourself and where ever you bought the battery if reputable should have listed this) that means these cells need to have a 15a rating which not a lot of 21700 5ah have unless you go for top of the line cells. But again based off the overheating I'm guessing there are not.

Now the best option and practical thing to do is buy a battery that has the spec's that fits and is from a reputable source or build one yourself. If you are up to building you have a few decisions to make. First is how many cells do you want to use, right now with the 14s4p that's fairly big but if you have enough room you could do 5p which would give you more capacity and also lower the amps per cell but of course it will raise the cost, weight, size and difficulty in design. It's really up to you on what you want to do but I would say don't go under 14s4p imo, and usually the cost of adding another 1p of cells isn't that much more as some of the main expenses of building a battery (bms, spot welder, nickel, copper, wire etc) will not change so its something to think about. Second would be the cells to use, this will depend on the amount of parallel cells you have but assuming you stick with the 4p that's 15a discharge each. It's mostly recommended you don't push the cells to their max amp rating as this can cause heat and capacity loss but I assume with the x1 you likely are not hitting the 60a for very long as the m620 would over heat so I would say 15a cells are fine. But it's worth noting again that the max rating or close to it with cells will not provide their rated capacity, will likely heat up more and also will have a lower life span (amount of cycles before they lose say 20% of rated capacity). As an example a good independent battery tester "Mooch" has tested a lot of cells and for example he tested a Samsung 50s (5ah 25a discharge) Molicel p45b (4.5ah 45a discharge) and Molicel p42a (4.2ah 40a discharge). When comparing the cells in that order at 10a he got 13.7wh, 13.1wh, 12.2wh which is already pretty close in capacity with the first two but up that to 20a and he got 11.4wh, 12.2wh, 10.4wh. This is just to say you have to look at the capacity at the amperage you will use it at, because as you can see even though the 50s is 11% more capacity rated at 10a its only 4.5% more and when at 20a the p45b actually has 7% more capacity. And lastly I would recommend going with a bms that's rated slightly over 60a or one that's close to the true possible discharge of the pack and that is bluetooth. The bluetooth is such a great feature, you can see state of charge, charge and discharge rate, individual cell group voltages, overall capacity and more. Really wonderful tool for everyday use like making sure the pack is balanced and also for trouble shooting if an issue arises.

Another thing to mention is make sure your series connections can handle the power, those little nickel (make sure to get and test for pure nickel, shady sells pass off nickel plated as fully nickel whish isn't as conductive) cannot usually handle more than 10a and like I said you should design the pack around at least 60a so you will need to double up on the connections or do the "copper nickel sandwich" method. Building your series connections as well as you can reduces internal resistance of the battery which means less heat on those connections and less voltage sag so more power!

As for battery choice I personally would stick to name brands. I have heard of those cells before and I've seen good and bad opinions on them. Personally if it was my bike I wouldn't use them. The fact alone you need to purchase them from a sketchy vender and then test each cell to make sure you're not getting ripped off isn't fun (and I bet getting a refund if you did also isn't fun) but their capacity for the size isn't very good anymore in an age where 5.8ah 21700's are starting to appear. I guess the main advantage would be price but one of the main complaints I saw was they don't age well and lose capacity and sag bad so I would argue that the cheapest option can be the most expensive in the long run. For name brand 21700's though the three I listed above get my recommendation. Molicel p42a's are widely regarded as the best all around 21700 cell for the money, good capacity but not class leading, high discharge and also being a budget cell. Samsung 50s is one of the best of the best for capacity and discharge, but the cell is starting to show its age (25a) but it's still a very good cell and seems to run mid-high when it comes to price. Molicel p45B just came out this year and is the best do it all cell, high capacity and very high discharge with other things like very low internal resistance and very high charge rates, but you pay for that with a very high price tag. Overall if your budget is the most important thing its really hard to look past the p42a's, slightly lower capacity but priced well and you could even add another 1p group to get more capacity than a 50s pack and still be cheaper but larger though. The samsung 50s is really the class leader for your needs as at 15a discharge at 4p the p45b still hasn't taken its spot like it would at 20a+ but it's also a good bit cheaper, if you really want to build the best battery while also keeping size and weight down this is the cell if your wallet can take it. I personally wouldn't look at the p45b for your needs, plus early adopter fees are very high right now.

Thanks Bengy , Thats some really helpful Information there. I have seen the 21700 Molicel P42a'a on www.fogstar's website. And they seem good at the £8.99 price each. There is another 21700 Molicel Battery , which is the P45B. these aas below :

I was thinking about these and paying alittle extra. These discharge at 35A to 45A , so hopefully cover the some of the issues you described above. One thing that i am finding with the 18650 batteries 14s,4p packs currently use ,is they do get very hot. I am running them at the moment without bms's , and i really should expect nothing else but them heating up when i am out.

I thoughts point towards building a single 14S,4p pack of the P45B , and i this will be costly just for the batteries. I have my own spot welding ( Squire ) , so i think i try and buy some pure nickel , and double it up accross the batteries .... for the current.

Whats you thoughts running without a BMS ? , or do you have suggestion of which one to use for this setup ?

Any suggestions are always greatly recieved

 

[Bengy22]

Thanks Bengy , Thats some really helpful Information there. I have seen the 21700 Molicel P42a'a on www.fogstar's website. And they seem good at the £8.99 price each. There is another 21700 Molicel Battery , which is the P45B. these aas below :View attachment 330782

I was thinking about these and paying alittle extra. These discharge at 35A to 45A , so hopefully cover the some of the issues you described above. One thing that i am finding with the 18650 batteries 14s,4p packs currently use ,is they do get very hot. I am running them at the moment without bms's , and i really should expect nothing else but them heating up when i am out.

I thoughts point towards building a single 14S,4p pack of the P45B , and i this will be costly just for the batteries. I have my own spot welding ( Squire ) , so i think i try and buy some pure nickel , and double it up accross the batteries .... for the current.

Whats you thoughts running without a BMS ? , or do you have suggestion of which one to use for this setup ?

Any suggestions are always greatly recieved

Yes the p45b's I also mentioned in my post, overall a very nice cell! They do cost more, but I'm surprised to hear how expensive the p42a's are where you are. In the USA p42a's are around $6/e where p45b's are $13/e! The only other sell I would look at is the samsung 50s, slightly more capacity and slightly less money but also less discharge (although with 4p you will be fine). Are you sure you have 18650s? Because if you do 100% they are not 5ah and that pack isn't 20ah as 5ah 18650's don't exist. Be careful about not running a bms, don't want those cells to heat up so much they go into thermal runaway which it sounds like the bms was helping to prevent!

Yes that usually is the case (although again surprised how expensive cells are in the UK). Doubling up on the series connections is a good idea, the more current they can support the better. My thoughts on running without a bms is that it could be fine but with batteries the consequences if something goes wrong can be explosive. It's like riding a bike without a helmet, can it be done sure and if you are careful and know what you are doing you may never be in a situation where you need one. Bms's are a great tool to make sure something never goes wrong though, and the bluetooth bms's that allow you to view everything on your phone are great to view the exact state of the cells and what is going on. Personally I would never run without one and in this day and age I would never buy a non-bluetooth bms, but other people might have different opinions on this. While I haven't personally used one of these (I bought a premade battery but plan to build my own in the future) I've seen Ant bms's, Daly, JBD. Just stick to name brands that are talked about on here and have a bluetooth imo.

 

[technotony007]

Yes the p45b's I also mentioned in my post, overall a very nice cell! They do cost more, but I'm surprised to hear how expensive the p42a's are where you are. In the USA p42a's are around $6/e where p45b's are $13/e! The only other sell I would look at is the samsung 50s, slightly more capacity and slightly less money but also less discharge (although with 4p you will be fine). Are you sure you have 18650s? Because if you do 100% they are not 5ah and that pack isn't 20ah as 5ah 18650's don't exist. Be careful about not running a bms, don't want those cells to heat up so much they go into thermal runaway which it sounds like the bms was helping to prevent!

Yes that usually is the case (although again surprised how expensive cells are in the UK). Doubling up on the series connections is a good idea, the more current they can support the better. My thoughts on running without a bms is that it could be fine but with batteries the consequences if something goes wrong can be explosive. It's like riding a bike without a helmet, can it be done sure and if you are careful and know what you are doing you may never be in a situation where you need one. Bms's are a great tool to make sure something never goes wrong though, and the bluetooth bms's that allow you to view everything on your phone are great to view the exact state of the cells and what is going on. Personally I would never run without one and in this day and age I would never buy a non-bluetooth bms, but other people might have different opinions on this. While I haven't personally used one of these (I bought a premade battery but plan to build my own in the future) I've seen Ant bms's, Daly, JBD. Just stick to name brands that are talked about on here and have a bluetooth imo.

ThanksBengy , apprecaite you thoughts . The 18650's in the old battery packs claimed to 20ah when i purchased them , and it was 14s,4P . But i was sadly disappointed. Hence the reason to build a battery myself.

 

[Bengy22]

ThanksBengy , apprecaite you thoughts . The 18650's in the old battery packs claimed to 20ah when i purchased them , and it was 14s,4P . But i was sadly disappointed. Hence the reason to build a battery myself.

Well sounds like whoever sold the battery to you lied, even the best 18650's peak at 3500mah so at most your battery is 14ah then. When you build a good battery with good sells you will be happy!