➡ Installed Kelly/KEB Controller w Regen in my Motorino XPn

[starlightkayak]

For anyone interested, we successfully installed the Kelly KEB controller in my Motorino XPn.

Couple of things we discovered:

Pros:
+ Amazing smoothness of ride and glide-like accel/decel - unreal - still playing with the programmable settings to see where I like it best.
+ The 60A continuous rating for the controller is pretty exact, according to the CA, and torque while riding blows me away, zero speed loss on hills that used to cut my speed by 1/3.
+ You can actually program it without removing it from the bike as long as the motor isn't "running". And you can leave the serial RS232 connected for easy access, as long as you waterproof the connections and keep the USB port covered when not in use.

Cons:
+ Low speed growl at throttle-on from a stop(0-2mph), and even after enabling the firmware's (#7) noise reduction, it's still noticeable. Even while braking, when we get to that 0-2mph zone, it growls (regen is on so that's likely why). Did some reading and apparently this is common in the Kellys. Didn't know that. amberwolf suggested it's probably to do with the current limiting being done by the Kelly on the motor. Will advise as I learn more.
+ Controller is large and needed some custom fitting, also the J2 cable came with only wires and no connectors, so we had to make our own from the old controller's old ones. Not a huge deal, but worth mentioning.

Neutral Comments:
+ Motor wires and power/grnd need ring-clamp terminals to attach to the controller with bolts (not provided)
+ Controller's #4 pin/wire (Thermistor) is actually the pin required for High Level Braking (which Motorinos use), so that wire is necessary for the brakes and can't be used for therm.
+ Sabrent's RS232 cables are way cheaper than the ones Kelly sells and work just fine - get one at Tiger Direct
+ You can program the controller prior to install using any 12V DC supply if you want, does not have to be 18-24 as the manual states

Hope this helps anyone looking to play around with Motorino and Kelly! Note, I am not the tech here, I am a digital developer so I work with software mostly, and leave the hardware to the experts. I can build my own PC, however I've never built a moto so I paid a mechanic to do my upgrades - having said that, I love to learn and asked a lot of questions while we were figuring it out.





OP: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62617

 

[Laserman]

Did you take any photos of the install of the controller, or do you have sort of a text walk thru of how to get the wiring sorted as I am interesting in doing the same with mine.

 

[starlightkayak]

You know, I should have - but I actually hired a mechanic to do mine for me because I'm not an expert there. I can put you in touch with him, if you'd like! He's got a tonne of experience working on Motorinos and is an electrical engineer as well. I'll send you a PM.

 

[Laserman]

One thing maybe you could do is post some after shots of the wiring ie left side with green arrow or circle is new and red arrow or circle is old so some of us could get a idea on what has to be done

Jim

 

[starlightkayak]

Have to look at that when I next open the bike. It's a beast to take all the panels off, so I do it only when need to. Right panel won't show much, the controller has to be mounted at the rear because of size, so the wiring is best seen from there.

 

[Laserman]

When ever you do any maintenance and get the shots will be great, I may end up doing 2 to 3 mods like this once I can see how the wiring goes I will probably be doing this to a buddy's bike first before mine as mine is still under warranty as he has done over 15,000km on his in 2 years

 

[Laserman]

What was the duty's on the unit if there were any?

 

[inedible]

I just got this controller and I'm trying to install it in my Motorino XPd, but I'm curious how you did a couple things.

First of all, do you still have a spedometer and odometer? I can't figure out where that could plug in. That'll really suck to not know how fast I'm going, but I'm really not sure how the motorino controller talked to this screen.

Secondly, it looks like the regenerative braking on this controller uses a potentiometer rather than just a switch. I guess that should give you more or less regen depending on how hard you pull on the brakes? Did you have to replace your brake levers? I'm not sure I understood what you meant by "high level braking".

 

[Laserman]

Could you take some pics of the unit with all wiring laid out, the speedo and rest are not connected to the controller they are powered by the dc to dc converter

 

[Laserman]

Take a few pics of the unit with all the wires your speedo and other item are powered by the dc to dc converter they get their own power from that,argh double post

 

[granolaboy]

Hey, great idea! I had a lyen 12-fet in my motorino and I thought that was pretty skookum. I bet the kelly rips.

Those motorino motors are nice and beefy too...easily twice the copper in there compared to other ebike scooter motors. I have one in my garage I just rewired with 10g silicone wire. Going to throw it on my girlfriend's scooter as soon as I have the cake for some lithium.

Maybe you register it now and get rid of the pedals?

 

[mistercrash]

I just got this controller and I'm trying to install it in my Motorino XPd, but I'm curious how you did a couple things.

First of all, do you still have a spedometer and odometer? I can't figure out where that could plug in. That'll really suck to not know how fast I'm going, but I'm really not sure how the motorino controller talked to this screen.

Secondly, it looks like the regenerative braking on this controller uses a potentiometer rather than just a switch. I guess that should give you more or less regen depending on how hard you pull on the brakes? Did you have to replace your brake levers? I'm not sure I understood what you meant by "high level braking".

I think the Kelly has three different modes for regen that can be programmed, why not just go with throttle cut or brake switch. If you have the new digital speedometer, I'm not sure if you can make that speedo and the Kelly talk to each other easily.

Anyway, once you have figured it all out, please post a detailed diagram that the ignorants like me can actually comprehend, because I don't think starlightkayak is coming back here to give lessons.

 

[inedible]

I'm still not sure how this is going to work:

The motorino controller just uses two wires. It's just a momentary pushbutton switch under the brake levers, but the kelly seems to want some kind of potentiometer. There's five wires hooked to four pins on the controller. AND then OP says this:

+ Controller's #4 pin/wire (Thermistor) is actually the pin required for High Level Braking (which Motorinos use), so that wire is necessary for the brakes and can't be used for therm.

I'm not sure what that means at all. Pin four isn't involved with braking as far as I can tell, and the motorino motors do not have thermistors.

 

[Laserman]

Line for is the break side they missed labeled it in their guide from what skylarks said

 

[inedible]

If anyone discovers this thread while searching for how to hook up a motorino's brake system to a kelly controller, the brake line normally accepts a potentiometer, looking for voltages between 0 and 5 volts.

Motorinos use the same 12v line that powers the lights to signal the controller, so there's a poorly documented feature of kelly controllers where if you need a 12v signal for braking, you need to feed it to pin 4.

This prevents you from using a temperature sensor if your motor includes one, but motorino's motors don't have one anyway. If you wanted to measure your motor temp, you'd need to drop the brake signal down to under 5 volts, maybe with diodes or something, then feed that to idk probably pin 6.

So yeah. That's what's meant by "high level braking". Motorino controllers use the 12v system for signalling whereas kelly controllers output 5v that's used for that sort of thing.

 

[smeagol222]

I think the Kelly has three different modes for regen that can be programmed, why not just go with throttle cut or brake switch. If you have the new digital speedometer, I'm not sure if you can make that speedo and the Kelly talk to each other easily.

Anyway, once you have figured it all out, please post a detailed diagram that the ignorants like me can actually comprehend, because I don't think starlightkayak is coming back here to give lessons.

Did anyone figure out how to connect kelly to speedo? I'm in a similar situation
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164

 

[mistercrash]

Did anyone figure out how to connect kelly to speedo? I'm in a similar situation
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=85164

Kellys don't work with digital speedos. If someone figured out a way to make it work, they haven't shared their findings here yet.

 

[smeagol222]

Ah thats unfortunate. What are the alternatives for speedometer other than cell phone and GPS? Perhaps some motorcycle manual one?

 

[mistercrash]

For me the best option was a Cycle Analyst. It gives so much more info than just speed.

 

[smeagol222]

I ended up getting a CA. Can anyone share experience with programming their kelly controller and what spec battery pack they used? (cont. batt amps, peak batt amps)

I have a KEB and 20s10p with LG MJ1 = 100a cont. People at kelly say to limit battery current to 60% and motor current to 80%. Thats 60a cont, but how do I know I'm getting the full peak amps for torque/takeoff?

 

[amberwolf]

The CA will show you instantaneous and peak amps (different screens).

 

[smeagol222]

Okay- so I should probably just set it at like 60% battery current, 100% motor current. Do a couple test runs and see what the CA says, then adjust (I would just be looking at the max Amps reading right, I only have to adjust for that- looking for approx 90a)

Just to double check, CA will give me a battery amps not phase amps right? I've seen some crazy readings on Mistercrash's latest setup like 400a - I know he has a different setup, but just wanted to make sure before I confuse myself further.

 

[amberwolf]

The only way to read phase amps is with current sensors installed in the phase wires. If the Kelly has those then it can read phase current, but the CA can only read battery current, because that's where it's shunt goes--in series with the battery.

 

[smeagol222]

Not sure if this is the right place for this question but would it be possible to use KEB "economy function" as a speed limiter? Its says it limits speed to half of normal

Or could I just use existing throttle with on my ebike has a 3 position switch which was used to select 3 speeds (Daymak Eagle). I'm not sure how throttles work, but I'm guessing the 3 pos switch changes resistance slightly sending different voltage signals back.

Im totally guessing but throttle looks for 5v signal? so for example switch pos 1 full throttle 33% (1.6v), pos 2 66% (3.2v), pos3 100% (full 5v)?

 

[Noq]

If memory serves, Fany (from Kelly) told me that KEB series controllers make the growling sound, but KLS series don't. Mine doesn't, and I have a KLS 96501-8080I. Mistercrash has a similar one. I'd imagine his is silent too. Hope it's not too loud. I rode with a trapezoidal controller once, and it was like a lawnmower: brrrrrRRRZZZ!

Nice that you got a CA. This is the most straightforward way to read speed, using magnet poles mounted on your spokes combined with wheel circumference. A sensor reads the magnets and does some math to calculate speed. However, if you want more accuracy/responsiveness, there's a way to get the CA to read the "poles" off of the hall sensors directly from the sense leads, switching one wire on the CA's circuitboard. There's documentation for this on the Grin website. It's going to look for 5V/0V switching. This will be way better than using magnet poles: you'll get more accurate, instantaneous readings. However, if your Kelly is like mine, then your hall sensors will switch at 0V/12V (or 10.8V). This is higher than what the CA wants. You can't use a 12V->5V voltage regulator because you really need the staccato pulsing to be accurate, but you may be able to use a voltage divider. I haven't tested this yet, but I'd be interested in more accurate readings and less junk on my wheels.

For settings, I have a 20S Leaf pack similar to mistercrash, and I programmed the CA with LiPo and 21S (for most accurate battery meter icon, otherwise at 68V it still said I had some range left when I was nearly dead). For Kelly software settings, I just opened everything up to 100%. You can then see on the CA whether or not you're exceeding recommended ratings for your parts, at which point, tweak as necessary You can choose to play it safe and stay within specs, or surprise yourself with what you can get away with.

This melts the phase wires

You might like to use the bluetooth dongle and just keep that plugged in inside your bike so you can make programming changes on the fly using your phone. If you do that, then I recommend waterproofing it very tightly. This is a great ability. There are many cases where you'd want to make changes on the go, such as monitoring stats, troubleshooting, changing your voltage cutoffs in a pinch, weather-dependent settings, etc. without needing to undo any panels or have a computer handy. Note that a phone can also use the USB cable if you have an Android and a USB-OTG dongle.

Regarding motor thermistors, if you ever need to open your motor, you can mount one yourself. From Fany @ Kelly:

As of the thermistor,we usually use KTY83-122 or KTY84-130 for the motor. Then you just need to connect two terminals of thermitor to pin1 and pin20 directly. You just need to enable the motor thermistor according to the model you chose.

Note that he's referring to my controller pin #'s. If you email him he'll help. His English is good enough to figure out Another solution would be to use an IC like LM35, which outputs temperature as millivolts. Mount this to a panel meter and you're good to go. This is my solution. Last time my motor was open, I used high-heat epoxy and stuck in an LM35. Lastly, you could always forego using your speedo/odo and flash the "boat" CA firmware on your CA. It'll display the temperature where the speedo used to be if you hook a standard thermistor up to the CA :lol: It's a very hidden feature, but the trade-off is not worth it IMO (I want my speedo/odo).

Regarding your switch and throttle, it would be nice to set that up so you have forward, reverse, and economy mode. Throttle sends 0-5V depending on the position of its twist. In my software, it's possible to set dead-zones too (e.g. 20% high and low deadzone is handy). I'm not sure how the actual electronics of the switch work because I haven't spent time probing mine (I fixed it once by replacement, and once done I moved on), so if anyone knows, that'd be nice to learn about.