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Instant Start 18 fet Infineon Boards are here...

Hey methods figure out whats wrong with your x5 yeat? Now?

How about now? :lol:
So I was wondering is there 100 volts to the ca? Reason I ask is I need 100v switched (or source voltage for those who are foolish not to run 100 v) with the controler for my cooling system.
Oh and
How about now?
 
Yep.
100V and Ground go up to the CA

BUT - be ware....

The CA is using its own power lines to measure the pack voltage and calculate all the power levels etc.
If you draw a significant amount of current from those CA power lines you will develop a voltage drop on those lines
That voltage drop wont be registered by the CA.

If you are drawing 20 or 30mA that should be fine

So - I know what is wrong with my X5 - same problem again.
I think my axle is spinning a little in my Ghetto drops
This time I am going to grind down that sharp edge :?

I am also going to mount some fans.
I will be running a tiny 24 gauge pair of wires down there to drive them
I will bring the 24g wires up to the controller and hook them to a switched output

Ah... Now I know why you want to use the CA tap - it is already a switched source of 100V.
Good idea

Another thing you can do is run a DC to DC converter - any old switching power supply can take that 100V input and convert it to 12-15V.
You can then run the fans in series (EDIT: PARALLEL) and have a little less risk. Running 100V on tiny lines is a little sketchy... :shock:

Anyhow - I am going to take my time and fix the motor right this time :wink:
I thought I did a good job last time but apparently - not.

-methods
 
I dont want to lower the voltage to much for my fans because they will not move enough air. But I will try them at 100v (25v each) and if it gives problems I may find a 18 volt power supply. Otherwise a 5th fan in series which will help cool better anyways. I am going to brake the edge of the axle where the wires run inside it as well it is realy sharp and sharp edges promot arcing.
 
I finally got some time this evening to get started on this ish. This thing is so baller.
 

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Kapton is probably a wise move - that is what everybody seems to be using these days.
How thick is yours?

-methods
 
The Kapton is pretty thin. I am not sure exactly.Think average scotch tape X2 maybe. I have alot of experience with the stuff though and I wanted one more layer of insulation just in case one of the Fets were to puncture the gap pad. In an ideal world we would really need some of that nice squishy-thick gappad but the Kapton will work for now. It does provide a little more thermal resistance which I am not thrilled about though...
 
I just did some searching about kapton, and from what I understand there are many variants to it. Going by Dupont's site, you wouldbe best to use the "MT" type kapton film - they state that it has 3 times better thermal conduction than their regular stuff (which they call "HN").

However, if I understand you correctly grindz, you want to also use the grey silicone pad on top of the kapton? Those soft grey silicone pads are pretty bad at transfering heat, you might consider not using it at all.

Only using thin kapton would give you much better thermal transfer (even if using the regular HN stuff), but I have no experience using this stuff so I'm not sure how well it would stand up mecanicaly, specially if you go with thin stuff. Mica is a better thermal conductor than kapton (twice as good per mil as kapton MT), so you might consider this too (I've seen it sold in sheets at mcmaster-carr).
 
100% of the controllers I have taken apart in the last year have used Kapton tape alone.
This is how I will proceed in the future.

I have some of that higher end stuff Pat is talking about - Ben turned me on to it - visually it seems to have a more flat texture where as regular Kapton is shiny. Unfortunatly the sample I have does not have the silicone adhesive so it is a bitch to work with.

At work I have kapton that is both extremely thin and unmanageably thick.
I would tend to move toward the thicker stuff but Kenny over at Krystalyte uses pretty thin Kapton.

The Gray stuff came from Keywin. I would not hesitate to leave it out if you have thick enough Kapton

-methods
 
Hey Methods,

You burnt out another x5 :shock:

Dude your awsome :twisted:

wait till doc hears this one again LOL ...

dude check out my motor .. i'm taking these pics for you

here is my x5304

I'll be putting mine on a nice 20" Sun bfr rim .. the ones you can put trough a wall without breaking ..

faugdx.jpg


2rp5jpv.jpg


-steveo
 
I will definitely consider leaving it out. I am concerned with kapton alone though. Really aught to have something like this:

http://media.digikey.com/photos/Bergquist/.040,%20.060%20GP%201500%204X4.jpg
 
steveo said:
Hey Methods,

You burnt out another x5 :shock:

Dude your awsome :twisted:

wait till doc hears this one again LOL ...

Dude - I can do way better than that.
Spun stator on axle

Your hub is looking good!
My drilling has helped my overheating problems but now it is just the next weak link....

-methods
 
A few general thoughts regarding MOSFET insulation...
- Don't even consider using a Gap Pad in these applications. The thermal resistance is too darn high.
- Use the absolutely thinnest Kapton you can find if you must use an insulator. Better to hardcoat anodize the heat sink though...by far.
- Kapton sheet typically has a lower net thermal resistance than mica (and is better to use) because the Kapton can be made so much thinner. Check the specs carefully.
- To use uber-thin Kapton, always scrub your heat sink surface with 000 steel wool (nothing rougher!) to remove any burrs, but not move any metal. Then firmly rub the back side of every MOSFET you're using against a sheet of Kapton and see if it scratches the Kapton. If it does, grab a different MOSFET.
- ALWAYS use thermal compound when using Kapton or mica!!!!!! If you see an application without compound, it's because the FETs didn't need the extra cooling or the manufacturer wanted to save a few dollars. The Kapton is just an insulator. It doesn't fill in any of the surface roughness (air pockets) of either the heat sink or the FET. You'd never use a FET directly against a heat sink without compound so you can't skip the compound if the situation is being made even worse by adding a thermal insulator between the FET and the heat sink. And don't think I misspoke. Kapton is a fabulous thermal insulator. It's used for its electrical insulating properties when used with a FET, not because it helps to move heat in any way. :mrgreen:
- Using thermal compound with the Kapton makes working with it much easier and you don't need the self-adhesive stuff anymore.
 
CamLight said:
A few general thoughts regarding MOSFET insulation...
- Don't even consider using a Gap Pad in these applications. The thermal resistance is too darn high.
- Use the absolutely thinnest Kapton you can find if you must use an insulator. Better to hardcoat anodize the heat sink though...by far.
- Kapton sheet typically has a lower net thermal resistance than mica (and is better to use) because the Kapton can be made so much thinner. Check the specs carefully.
- To use uber-thin Kapton, always scrub your heat sink surface with 000 steel wool (nothing rougher!) to remove any burrs, but not move any metal. Then firmly rub the back side of every MOSFET you're using against a sheet of Kapton and see if it scratches the Kapton. If it does, grab a different MOSFET.
- ALWAYS use thermal compound when using Kapton or mica!!!!!! If you see an application without compound, it's because the FETs didn't need the extra cooling or the manufacturer wanted to save a few dollars. The Kapton is just an insulator. It doesn't fill in any of the surface roughness (air pockets) of either the heat sink or the FET. You'd never use a FET directly against a heat sink without compound so you can't skip the compound if the situation is being made even worse by adding a thermal insulator between the FET and the heat sink. And don't think I misspoke. Kapton is a fabulous thermal insulator. It's used for its electrical insulating properties when used with a FET, not because it helps to move heat in any way. :mrgreen:
- Using thermal compound with the Kapton makes working with it much easier and you don't need the self-adhesive stuff anymore.


All very good advise. :)
 
Yea - Camlight has good advice - clearly a subject matter expert.

I want to put a "methods thread disclaimer" on it though.

It should be noted that Camlight is a Mosfet aficionado - borderline perfectionist :)
I believe that he would also not have us go over 75V with the 100V 4110 mosfets right?

His advice is sound and you should listen but that does not mean that if you do something janky it wont work.
I think we have an order of magnitude of overkill here so use what you've got laying around - it will work just fine.
Certainly not worth a tear-down.

-methods

Edit - there will be a trade off between effective thermal coupling and margin on isolation right?
The thinner you go with the Kapton the greater the possibility of catastrophic failure.
 
methods said:
Yea - Camlight has good advice - clearly a subject matter expert.

I want to put a "methods thread disclaimer" on it though.

It should be noted that Camlight is a Mosfet aficionado - borderline perfectionist :)
I believe that he would also not have us go over 75V with the 100V 4110 mosfets right?
Only if you want those MOSFETs to last for years without problems. :mrgreen:
Otherwise, bringing the voltage up from there brings the expected life span down. There's always a trade-off, ya' just gotta pick which part of the trade-off is more important. I see a lot of FETs blowing up in controllers being used within their alleged ratings and it's because a lot of these basics aren't being paid attention to. For DIY'ers, and others who don't mind hacking their controllers if the FETs blow, by all means crank it up!

Your disclaimer is a good one and I never meant my post to be accepted as gospel for all FET use. Just for longest life possible. Each person can go as far from there as they want. :D

methods said:
His advice is sound and you should listen but that does not mean that if you do something janky it wont work.
I think we have an order of magnitude of overkill here so use what you've got laying around - it will work just fine.
Certainly not worth a tear-down.

-methods
Yup, it is conservative. Where I have the option, I like my stuff to never, ever need repair. But, where I have to, I'll go beyond the specs and cross my fingers. I've got an electronic load I built here that operates at 140C at 2400W, the max temp for good reliability. Do I ever operate it at 2400W? Nope. :D Typically, it runs at 3200W or so and up to 4000W....over 225C for the MOSFETs. And not one MOSFET has blown yet. But, they will.

If you're modifying or repairing a marginal design, adding thermal compound to a Kapton/mica-only setup might give you enough of a thermal margin to keep the unit from blowing (or again). But, absolutely, most specs can be pushed. And some can be pushed very, very hard. Just have to expect that the component might fail at any time. I like to understand what a good design can do and then push from there. A lot of folks start assuming that a 100V FET has no chance of blowing at 100V and 175C temp and then wonder what the heck happened when it blew at 101V. Knowing that the FET is stressed pretty hard at 80% of its rating can give the user a better idea of the failure curve they're dealing with, and where the curve starts. This lets them exceed the specs with better expectations of might happen.

Some folks might not know that they can't just replace mica+grease, or a gap-pad, with dry Kapton and that it also needs grease to match the thermal specs of any greased setup they're replacing. Kapton doesn't have to be greased, but it sure works better when it does.

By all means, don't let any of this prevent you from going full-bore janky! :mrgreen:

methods said:
Edit - there will be a trade off between effective thermal coupling and margin on isolation right?
The thinner you go with the Kapton the greater the possibility of catastrophic failure.
Kapton has a dielectric strength of over 2,000V/mil of thickness. No reason not to go as thin as possible...and lots of benefits. If you want to go thicker to prevent penetration by a burr or something else, it's much better IMHO to get rid of the burr since it's probably long enough to go through any thickness of Kapton you might use.

I should make clear that I never, ever want anyone to not try to push the ratings for anything they're using. I just want them to know what's going on and how to better understand how the system works to improve its reliability...so the system can be pushed even harder. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
 
Thanks Camlight :D

-methods
 
Excellent reassurance! I was tempted to do just that but I saw some of the burned controller pictures and got nervous... probably not a bad idea to put capton on the fets between the phases as well where the heatsinks are drilled a bit close. :shock:
 
I drill out the mosfet holes so that you can shift the fets into tight groups of three.
When I am finished I tape over the back of the heat sink then conformal coat the crap out of the fets.
No way can they arch :p

Luke has made a good observation that the fets can shift after being heat cycled a few times.
Having a solid insulator between them (like kapton) would help address this issue.

Hmm... I guess you could Kapton tape each individual fet hu?
Then you would have 2 layers of kapton between each fet.

Interesting.
Probably not any more work than using that gray crap

-methods
 
Could each piece of Kapton be cut a bit wide (for each FET) so that the loose end sticks up between each FET and prevents any two FETs from touching? Would only need one layer then? If using a single strip of Kapton tape for a row of FETs, could extra tape in the strip be V-folded up between each FET?
 
CamLight said:
Could each piece of Kapton be cut a bit wide (for each FET) so that the loose end sticks up between each FET and prevents any two FETs from touching? Would only need one layer then? If using a single strip of Kapton tape for a row of FETs, could extra tape in the strip be V-folded up between each FET?
Wouldn't hurt but each set of three can touch without a problem. So I would only maybe do it between every third and fourth one!
 
There you go.
6 slightly oversized strips of kapton that poke up between the groups of 3.

Provides the same thermal conductivity while offering up a double layer protection between opposing fets.

-methods
 
Got a bit of a video up, check sig! :lol:
 
methods said:
There you go.
6 slightly oversized strips of kapton that poke up between the groups of 3.

Provides the same thermal conductivity while offering up a double layer protection between opposing fets.

-methods


This is an excellent idea for the folks who are looking to push the limits and stay as reliable as possible. If the previous method is done properly, it also should pose no troubles for anyone, it's just in those cases where a FET might have been installed with a whisker too much tip to it.
 
Arlo1 said:
Got a bit of a video up, check sig! :lol:

Outstanding video Arlo! LOL! Top notch stuff! :) Burnouts till the tires blow always will have a special place in my heart. :)
 
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