Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525 + HD video

[Timma2500]

That is such a great looking set up. Hope my DH Team turns out cool with the 4065 on it.

Thanks Tom. Have you decided on a rim and started a build thread for the DH Team?

Maybe I missed it earlier in the thread, but what material did you make your dropouts from? Also do you know what your final frame weight (just main triangle and swingarm) was? I'm starting to plan a new build :wink:

The dropouts are just 10mm mild steel / low carbon steel plate. I'm not sure of the total weight of triangle and swingarm together, but the triangle alone finished up at 4.1kg, a 1.6kg gain with the insert. A new build you say? Do tell


Paul

 

[keyne]

Ok, cool, I think the m3 is about 4.7 with shock which would make the swing arm 1.3 - sounds about right. Your build made me go and modify my dh comps paint job and put on a whole bunch of decals I should post some pics

I'm not going to let much out about my new build ideas yet sorry, other than I've learnt a lot about composite engineering in the last year and I still think liquid cooling is the way to go!

 

[keyne]

By the way, how do the three bikes you've built compare? Maybe a mini comparison?

 

[litespeed]

I have not started a build thread since I don't have all the pieces or 100% decided on everything I plan to do. Just missing a bit here and there. Loose ends and all. I went with the Psycho 26" DH rim and had it built by Ilia at ebikessf.com

Since I'm super busy with my company right now and winter just around the corner I've been taking my time, only because I get scatter brained when I have too much thought going through my brain at any given moment.

Tom

BTW the 4065 is freaking huge!

 

[Timma2500]

Sorry for the delay guys, its been flatout lately.

Ok, cool, I think the m3 is about 4.7 with shock which would make the swing arm 1.3 - sounds about right. Your build made me go and modify my dh comps paint job and put on a whole bunch of decals I should post some pics

Yeah that sounds pretty close. Hey sweet, show us some pics of the new paint job!

I'm not going to let much out about my new build ideas yet sorry, other than I've learnt a lot about composite engineering in the last year and I still think liquid cooling is the way to go!

Hell yeah now you're talking! I'd love to down down the same path, maybe with a kevlar / carbon fibre mix. You could incorporate the coolant lines into the frame structure so they serve 2 purposes... Feel free to release teaser pics when your ready :lol:

By the way, how do the three bikes you've built compare? Maybe a mini comparison?

All 3 are very different bikes...

Weight: From memory, the Cyclone powered Specialized was about the same as the Astro 8150 powered Norco with the Intense a distant 3rd.

Power: The Intense and Norco @ 5kw peaks are about the same with the Specialized a distant 3rd with 1800w peaks.

Balance: The Norco and Specialized were very well balanced where as the Intense has a rearward biased weight spread due to the 3525.

Climbing: The Specialized wins hands down, with the correct gearing, it amazed me with what snotty steep dirt trails it'd climb. The Norco would probably be next, the gearbox never held together long enough to climb anything but it had unreal torque, esp in the first 3 or 4 gears. The Intense isn't too shabbby, it'll hammer up short steep stuff but not long drawn out steep tracks without heating up.

Outright Acceleration: The Intense wins this easy by virtue of being a slower wound hub running highish amps and volts + not having to run up through the gears like the other two bikes. On flat ground its up to top speed quite swiftly.

Handling: I never got to ride the Norco very far so i wont comment on it but the Specialized handled ok, more nimble than the Intense through tight trails but it wasn't designed to handle rough tracks like the Intense. The Intense has the advantage on more open and rougher tracks as its a bit more planted and stable, esp at higher speeds.

I have not started a build thread since I don't have all the pieces or 100% decided on everything I plan to do. Just missing a bit here and there. Loose ends and all. I went with the Psycho 26" DH rim and had it built by Ilia at ebikessf.com

Thats fair enough, its always good to have something to show in the 1st build thread post i guess. I'm sure it wont be too long till you've got enough to give us a gander :wink: Cool, that sould make for a strong wheel, are you going to use a matching front rim?

Since I'm super busy with my company right now and winter just around the corner I've been taking my time, only because I get scatter brained when I have too much thought going through my brain at any given moment.

Lol i hear you regarding the scatter brain over load, i tend to suffer the same affliction!

Haha, yeah i was surprised at the diameter of the 3525 when i first got it! The '65 would be even wider!

Well i got out for a ride on some sand tracks on Sunday, it was hot (34deg c) but still fun. Although i did manage to smoke the motor... again :lol:
I did my 1st ever onboard video with the Gopro3, turned out ok, gave it a dodgy edit and put it on Youtube now i've just gotta figure out how to post it here

The ride was all sand, half soft and half sorta firm, mostly very open straight trails but with some nice corners thrown in. Just at the end of the vid i stopped to check motor temp after pushing a sustained 2- 3kw and 5kw peaks through it for about 7 minutes and found it smoking, what you don't see in the vid is me holding the wheel off the ground with the motor at wot trying to use the venting holes to cool it down for 2 minutes! :lol:
Its survived ok, doesn't feel weaker for the experience (again..).

I decided to buy a new chain device and cranks for the bike, the cranks so everything is now new or fairly new on it (the original Saints cranks had had a hard DH previous life) and the chain device cos the Paul's Chain Keeper never worked too well on this bike, its more an XC chain device so is not for long travel bikes. The last one i had worked fine on the shorter 140mm travel Specialized though.
So i ended up getting some M815 170mm Shimano Saint cranks and an E Thirteen LG1 chain device with bash guard. Both work ok together.

My BMS 2000w charger arrived today. The silly buggers have put god knows what AC plug on it so i'll have to put a new Aus standard 240v plug on it before i can use it... Should be interesting to see how much quicker it charges the 20s 10ah (soon to be 15) pack compared to my current 360w charger, a good deal quicker i hope! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlJv4-82GXk&feature=plcp

Paul

 

[keyne]

That's the sort of sandy terrain is perfect for ebikes - because on a normal mtb it would just be really hard work! It does tend to heat up the motors a bit quicker though...

I'm envious of your nice sandy trails, most of the trails near where I live are built on old glacial moraine - so are full of rocks :?

 

[litespeed]

I have not started a build thread since I don't have all the pieces or 100% decided on everything I plan to do. Just missing a bit here and there. Loose ends and all. I went with the Psycho 26" DH rim and had it built by Ilia at ebikessf.com

Thats fair enough, its always good to have something to show in the 1st build thread post i guess. I'm sure it wont be too long till you've got enough to give us a gander :wink: Cool, that sould make for a strong wheel, are you going to use a matching front rim? The stock front rim seems to be pretty beefy considering it's a DH wheel with a 20mm through axle so I'll start there.

Since I'm super busy with my company right now and winter just around the corner I've been taking my time, only because I get scatter brained when I have too much thought going through my brain at any given moment.

Lol i hear you regarding the scatter brain over load, i tend to suffer the same affliction!

Haha, yeah i was surprised at the diameter of the 3525 when i first got it! The '65 would be even wider!

Well i got out for a ride on some sand tracks on Sunday, it was hot (34deg c) but still fun. Although i did manage to smoke the motor... again :lol:
I did my 1st ever onboard video with the Gopro3, turned out ok, gave it a dodgy edit and put it on Youtube now i've just gotta figure out how to post it here

The ride was all sand, half soft and half sorta firm, mostly very open straight trails but with some nice corners thrown in. Just at the end of the vid i stopped to check motor temp after pushing a sustained 2- 3kw and 5kw peaks through it for about 7 minutes and found it smoking, what you don't see in the vid is me holding the wheel off the ground with the motor at wot trying to use the venting holes to cool it down for 2 minutes! :lol:
Its survived ok, doesn't feel weaker for the experience (again..).


My BMS 2000w charger arrived today. The silly buggers have put god knows what AC plug on it so i'll have to put a new Aus standard 240v plug on it before i can use it... Should be interesting to see how much quicker it charges the 20s 10ah (soon to be 15) pack compared to my current 360w charger, a good deal quicker i hope! :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlJv4-82GXk&feature=plcp

Paul

Looks lake an excellent place to ride. I used to practically live in the sand when I had my Honda Pilot and Drakart Formula Cross......I love the off road scene. I actually sold both to a couple guys that live in Australia. 3 months in a container if I remember correctly. Anyway looks like a great riding area.

Tom

 

[keyne]

Yeah that sounds pretty close. Hey sweet, show us some pics of the new paint job!

It's been stripped back to a DH bike for a weekend on the Queenstown gondola, once it's back together I'll post some pics.

Hell yeah now you're talking! I'd love to down down the same path, maybe with a kevlar / carbon fibre mix. You could incorporate the coolant lines into the frame structure so they serve 2 purposes... Feel free to release teaser pics when your ready :lol:

I was planning internal routing of the coolant lines, but I'm not sure of the implications of using the actual structure as the lines + it would make for a really complicated mold.

 

[Chalz]

Paul,
Nice job man. I wanted to thank you for sharing your builds, as I've learned so much for them. I now feel ready to start my own. I’m looking around for a used Bighit right now. Have you ever considered Oil Cooling? Not to the extreme of building a heavy radiator and pump, but just sealing the hub and filling it with one third mineral oil.
Oil Cooling might solve a good deal of problems I see you’re experiencing.

a. Keeping the elements out of your pricy DD with air vent holes. I have seen pictures of the damage that happens when dirt, mud and water get inside the vent holes- It destroys motors.

b. Cooling with oil works better than air – I would freak if I saw smoke coming out of my pricy motor after a good hill climb. Oil cooling has been documented with data in this forum.

c. Reduced friction for geared MAC motors

d. Reduced noise levels for greater stealth

I would love to see your girls Bighit / MAC with oil cooling, metal gears (from Lyen) and the battery pack / controller from this M3 build. That could hold the promise of more efficiency, greater torque and speed, stealthier, and more durable. Nobody has done a really solid build with oil cooling a geared motor. What do you think? I think the difference might be similar to removing the transmission fluid from your truck and replacing it with grease. It would surely overheat and break in no time- just like the geared hub motors do when you feed them real power.

Another note from reading your builds- about the heat treating. The strength you’re getting from building a large square box frame far exceeds what heat treating would do. The stress formula for bending in hollow tubing takes the distance from centroid into consideration. In workshop words- imaging if same amount of material in the frames cross section was used to make a solid frame member. It would bend like springy bar stock, or crack in the case of aluminum. You make a rectangle with that material and it stiffens up, the bigger the rectangle, the stronger it will be. That is why your frames are strong without the need for heat treatment.
Chalz

 

[Timma2500]

Sorry for delayed response guys, i've had an ES break for a few weeks...

That's the sort of sandy terrain is perfect for ebikes - because on a normal mtb it would just be really hard work! It does tend to heat up the motors a bit quicker though...

I'm envious of your nice sandy trails, most of the trails near where I live are built on old glacial moraine - so are full of rocks

I've never seen any mtbs at that riding area, its just too damn soft in a lot of parts for them to try. I've come across alot of 250 & 450 dirtbikes and 4wds though.
In fact i had to outrun a Toyota Landcruiser through there about a month ago - the cowards had just run over and killed a slow moving Bobby (Blue Tongue Lizard) on one of the tracks, i went past the Cruiser on a tight corner and deliberately roosted a shitload of sand through the driver's open window, they gave chase but had no hope of catching me... Yeah the trails there are pure sand, those rocks you mention would make life interesting, are they sharp or large?

Looks lake an excellent place to ride. I used to practically live in the sand when I had my Honda Pilot and Drakart Formula Cross......I love the off road scene. I actually sold both to a couple guys that live in Australia. 3 months in a container if I remember correctly. Anyway looks like a great riding area.

Tom

Its not bad, i'd never ridden in sand 'till i moved to WA 4yrs ago so it took some getting used to! :lol: Its a strange feeling at first using the sand to slow down and only touching the brakes if needed but as you'd know, you get used to it. I still prefer good old dirt though
I just googled the Drakart, they look like a hoot to drive! What was powering yours? My missus and i were looking at building a pair of buggies similar to those for the big sand dunes up north some time ago but it was going to be too dear to build them properly
I bet the boys in Oz that ended up with yours had a ball

It's been stripped back to a DH bike for a weekend on the Queenstown gondola, once it's back together I'll post some pics.

You got it back together yet? Pics pics pics!

I was planning internal routing of the coolant lines, but I'm not sure of the implications of using the actual structure as the lines + it would make for a really complicated mold.

That is true, could you add them post-mould? It would keep it tidy and maybe add to the frame's strength?

Paul,
Nice job man. I wanted to thank you for sharing your builds, as I've learned so much for them. I now feel ready to start my own. I’m looking around for a used Bighit right now. Have you ever considered Oil Cooling? Not to the extreme of building a heavy radiator and pump, but just sealing the hub and filling it with one third mineral oil.
Oil Cooling might solve a good deal of problems I see you’re experiencing.

a. Keeping the elements out of your pricy DD with air vent holes. I have seen pictures of the damage that happens when dirt, mud and water get inside the vent holes- It destroys motors.

b. Cooling with oil works better than air – I would freak if I saw smoke coming out of my pricy motor after a good hill climb. Oil cooling has been documented with data in this forum.

c. Reduced friction for geared MAC motors

d. Reduced noise levels for greater stealth

Cheers Chalz, i share my builds and try to show how i did them to encourage others and maybe give people some ideas for their builds - i'm sure most of the boys on here do it for the same reason - ya gotta love ES Mate i did think about oil cooling the HT3525 hub but decided against it primarily due to laziness lol. And also just to keep it simple and maintenance free. Having said that, oil cooling would probably do a better job of keeping the HT cool than the side cover vent holes and as you say, it'd keep the dirt and crap out of the hub too. So far i've not had anything major find it's way into the vented hub (touch wood!). Oh except a small spider some months ago, unless it crawled back out before the next ride it would have been BBQ'd pretty quickly lol.

I would love to see your girls Bighit / MAC with oil cooling, metal gears (from Lyen) and the battery pack / controller from this M3 build. That could hold the promise of more efficiency, greater torque and speed, stealthier, and more durable. Nobody has done a really solid build with oil cooling a geared motor. What do you think? I think the difference might be similar to removing the transmission fluid from your truck and replacing it with grease. It would surely overheat and break in no time- just like the geared hub motors do when you feed them real power.

Haha no way, the Mac already has more than enough power for Mel's liking, any more and she'd find herself in trouble! She's pretty easy on the Mac, so far she's only drawn 800w or so peaks from it. The only time that motor gets a hard time is when i occasionaly take it for a spin but i'm mindfull of it's limitations and ride accordingly.
The oil cooling would be benefitial for it but for it's intended use on this bike, i can't justify all the work needed to oil cool it.

Another note from reading your builds- about the heat treating. The strength you’re getting from building a large square box frame far exceeds what heat treating would do. The stress formula for bending in hollow tubing takes the distance from centroid into consideration. In workshop words- imaging if same amount of material in the frames cross section was used to make a solid frame member. It would bend like springy bar stock, or crack in the case of aluminum. You make a rectangle with that material and it stiffens up, the bigger the rectangle, the stronger it will be. That is why your frames are strong without the need for heat treatment.
Chalz

Thats along the lines of my thinking too, plus the main welded joint between the OEM frame and the front box are quite large (over 2 foot of weld on my M3) so it'd be strong enough for sure. The only weld i was worried about strength wise on my M3 was the weld from the back of the box to the bottom bracket section of the OEM frame, hence i used a small gusset to give it a little more strength down there. On Mel's bike i wasn't as worried because she is lighter than i and a much more careful and slower rider and doesn't push the bike nearly as hard.


I did manage to get out for a ride a few weeks ago up in the hills of Kalamunda. Theres a series of single tracks up there that i'd seen before but never had the chance to ride 'till now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urVgrffhDsc

In a few more weeks i hope to head south and do some more single tracks at two locations. I've ridden one lot on my normal mtb ages ago and loved it, the other i've ridden a few times now before getting the GoPro and its a blast too.

Paul

 

[dingoEsride]

In fact i had to outrun a Toyota Landcruiser through there about a month ago - the cowards had just run over and killed a slow moving Bobby (Blue Tongue Lizard) on one of the tracks, i went past the Cruiser on a tight corner and deliberately roosted a shitload of sand through the driver's open window, they gave chase but had no hope of catching me...

Nice one Paul!

 

[Trackman417]

In fact i had to outrun a Toyota Landcruiser through there about a month ago - the cowards had just run over and killed a slow moving Bobby (Blue Tongue Lizard) on one of the tracks, i went past the Cruiser on a tight corner and deliberately roosted a shitload of sand through the driver's open window, they gave chase but had no hope of catching me...

Yeah man! Good one!
I tried looking back at your other posts but couldn't find an answer.
Why volts are you running an how many amps were you pulling to out chase the Toyota? It sounds like 50+ amps at 20s?

 

[rodgah]

holy crap, an I wanted to put my missus on 24s LOL......lucky for the 3 speed switch hey.

looks brilliant Paul.

Rodger

 

[AussieJester]

HAHA i know exactly where those tracks are in the hills
Paul, thats up at the ol Pylons used to ride MX bikes up there yeeears ago
good 4x4 area deeper in, nice mud patch in winter teehehe...

KiM

 

[Philistine]

Timma2500 wrote:
In fact i had to outrun a Toyota Landcruiser through there about a month ago - the cowards had just run over and killed a slow moving Bobby (Blue Tongue Lizard) on one of the tracks, i went past the Cruiser on a tight corner and deliberately roosted a shitload of sand through the driver's open window, they gave chase but had no hope of catching me...


Nice one Paul!

Here here Dingo, what a deadset legend. Assholes like that almost never get what they deserve. As if his bike building skills weren't enough.... my hat is well and truly tipped with bent head....

 

[dingoEsride]

Paul is a legend but a very modest one, I hope that sand got into that drivers mouth and into all the little crevices of that vehicle and it's occupants that will make their temper rage only to have an electric bike peel away from them,
may all bobtails mourn their loss

 

[Timma2500]

Cheers fellas Although in retrospect, i should have said something before sand blasting them as they would have had no idea why i did it, they probably thought i was just being a smartass! Oh well, they still deserved it, i hate seeing cruelty to animals...

Regarding the chase, the track had some tight corners and some harsh dips which i knew i could take flatout and (thankfully) figured they would have to backoff through finishing at a large rock wall only a bicycle can squeeeeze through - phew!

Why volts are you running an how many amps were you pulling to out chase the Toyota? It sounds like 50+ amps at 20s?

I was giving it everything so was probably peaking around 5kw and pulling a constant 3kw through the sand at 30-50kph for about a minute.
The HT has never pulled more than 70a, usually topping out at 68a.

holy crap, an I wanted to put my missus on 24s LOL......lucky for the 3 speed switch hey.

Haha, you're mad if you put her straight on 24s with a HT! Maybe just start here on low amps till she gets used to it! And buy her a quality helmet
Mate my missus rarely uses the middle setting and has never used the 3rd speed on the switch yet and thats with just an 8t mac pulling 800w!
She's too cautious.... I think that pitbike wheelie fail and quad / tree altercation has slowed her down a touch lol...

HAHA i know exactly where those tracks are in the hills
Paul, thats up at the ol Pylons used to ride MX bikes up there yeeears ago
good 4x4 area deeper in, nice mud patch in winter teehehe...

Yep, thats the spot! Some cool single tracks in there, just gotta get up there more often now. You still living down the hill?

Here here Dingo, what a deadset legend. Assholes like that almost never get what they deserve. As if his bike building skills weren't enough.... my hat is well and truly tipped with bent head....

Cheers Phil, yeah they always seem to get away with sh%t like that, atleast karma was swift to react to their cruel actions...

Lol Mark, dunno where you got legend from :lol:

In more recent news, Mel has made a purchase....
She has loved the frame design on the GT DHi downhill bike for ages and when a 2009 model in good nick popped up on fleabay the other day, she jumped at the opportunity and nabbed it for a good price So its groundhog day already - its time for another build...

This is the bike



Its got a great parts list as standard - Boxxer World Cup forks, Fox DHX5.0 air shock, Avid Carbon brakes, Sram XO rear mech / shifter, Saint cranks, E13 chain device, MTX rims etc.
This build will be different for me though, due to Mel really liking the monocoque frame shape, i won't be cutting this frame... shock!
Its a short size frame so she should be ok reach wise to the handlebar.
A battery box and controller will be slung under the downtube in a box, probably made of aluminium.
Another change will be the downsizing to a 5ah pack from her current 10ah. This is due to me noticing she rarely uses more than 2.5 - 3ah on an average ride, therefore she is carrying around and extra 5ah for nothing. She has never peaked over 800w so far so a 5ah 25c pack will cope with that without a sweat.

Going to a 12s 5ah pack has a few pros and cons. Pro: half the weight, half the physical size to mount onto the frame, less battery to charge.
Con: for longer rides, one of us will have to carry another 12s 5ah battery in our camelpacks. It'll only be 1.6kg so its not too bad.

She'll be keeping the 8t mac even though she'd be better off with a 10 or 12t in the 26" Sun Ringle MTX rim the bike has and i'll be lacing the mac into.
Other than that, making some torque arms to suit the dropouts and some mods needed to convert the 12mm maxle rear end to fit the Mac axle, it'll be an easy conversion. I'll start a thread for it when the build begins as soon as the bike arrives here in WA from SA.

This also means her current bike, the blue Specialized BigHit is up for sale.
We are transfering the throttle, 12fet and Mac motor to the new bike so the Bighit will be a complete bike minus all the ebike stuff. The matching rear 24" rim, spokes to suit a Mac motor and Maxxis 2.7" tyre will be included as will a Turnigy watt meter as i'll be upgrading Mel to a handlebar stem mounted CA meter on the GT build.

Due to its size, the bike will suit people around 5ft to 5.6ft in height. Around the height of many wives and girlfriends of blokes on this site funny enough

We're looking for $800, i'll put a thread in the for sale section this week with details, pics and parts specs.

Paul

 

[AussieJester]

hey Paul, yeah I support of dividing mutt time between the Garage an and th he girlfriends at the moment, giving each other some space, down the hill more often than up though, give me a buzz when you wanna catch up and I'll let you know where I'm at, will pm mobile and Garage number in case you lost them...

KiM

 

[Hyena]

Thats some slick new wheels Mel has picked out, I'm looking forward to seeing what magic you work on it.
Your missus sure does get spoiled, but then so does mine :wink:

Sorry to break any hearts fellas but I think that big hit is about to share a stable with some other fine steeds

 

[full-throttle]

Due to its size, the bike will suit people around 5ft to 5.6ft in height. Around the height of many wives and girlfriends of blokes on this site funny enough

Sorry to break any hearts fellas but I think that big hit is about to share a stable with some other fine steeds

Great news!

Hmm.. did you buy it because of your height (lack of) or because it's a girl's bike?

 

[AussieJester]

+1 coz it's a gurls bike, the mail is Jays having it powfercoated fluro pink, giving the fighter to his missus, and frocking the new bike up with a friction drive or MaC front frock motor

KiM

 

[Hyena]

Hmm.. did you buy it because of your height (lack of) or because it's a girl's bike?

Hah look at this guy, shouldn't you be off trolling Chalo somewhere ?

How tall are you ? I wouldn't have throught you'd be much taller than me ?
I'm 5'8 and my missus is 5 foot nothing so I'm hoping she's not too small for it. I've been looking around for her and it's hard to find a suitable bike, a 60cm frame with 24" rims seems to be the best fit for her (ie early teens size )
If it's too big for her I'm sure I'll be able to ride it fine with a longer seat post. I better not get it re-coated in hot pink just yet :lol:

+1 coz it's a gurls bike, the mail is Jays having it powfercoated fluro pink, giving the fighter to his missus, and frocking the new bike up with a friction drive or MaC front frock motor

hahah you actually posted about painting it pink while I was still typing my above reply :lol:
I think I shall leave it blue, knowing my missus she'll only ride it twice then be over it

 

[full-throttle]

Hah look at this guy, shouldn't you be off trolling Chalo somewhere ?

Meh.. what's the fun in that? Better pick someone my own size AND not afraid to punch back

I'm 5'9"~5'10"

Nah, leave it blue - got to match your mascara

 

[AussieJester]

haha Jay, you never know she might really take to it?
Has she tried any of your bikes in the past?

Either way, being the tragic to fashion as you are, :uts on gay voice::
you know fluro is making a comeback gurlfriend hot pink mmmmm it's you my manly size queen

KiM

 

[John Bozi]

That's so sick!

To someone who has never welded before, how much would I need to spend to get all the tools to do this job?

Very inspiring man.