Inter vendor squabbles - luna cycle, em3ev, ebikekit, etc

[neptronix]

Hi all.

First disclosure: I have had some kind of business relationship with em3ev, lunacycle, ebikes.ca, and a couple other vendors in the past. I have done my best to remain unbiased and base my product recommendations only on my personal preferences and the interest of the forum itself. A few months ago i decided to stop doing web/tech work for vendors because i am essentially playing god with the market by doing this. It's NOT a position i like to be in.

That being said, i respect the hard work of all the major vendors here who have driven new product development and furthered the DIY scene here both currently, and in the past. These folks are a huge part of endless sphere's history. Most of us would still be building bikes with 10 year old 9 continent motors if it wasn't for you. :lol: :lol:

I have talked to each major vendor pretty extensively about how their business is going and understand that things are rather competitive these days. For consumers, this is great; we love competition. But we understand that it's tough for the vendors. Such is the nature of the market.

What's really bad for you vendors though is to see you starting threads thrashing each other and copying/pasting each others emails to try to make the other one look bad etc. It actually makes ALL you guys look bad to the average plebian here who is not familiar with you. It might be nice to rant and rave, but it will not boost your business. Good products, good prices, and good service are what will make you successful.

These vendor squabble threads are also not great for the forum either. Especially when one vendor has ownership over the forum and has decided to play the same neutrality game i have played, even when he has stiff competition. Thank heavens that this place continues to be what it is since day one, without business interest getting in the way of free speech. That is a rare thing in forums that are of high quality. But i feel as if this might get complicated in the future if it continues to ramp up.

Endless sphere is still the free spirited place that was part of your business story. Do not dump your toxic waste here and make this place a war zone, or i will personally come down hard on each of you. Future threads like the 'living the good life' one will be locked, deleted, or moved. I am dead serious. I don't ever want to see anything like that here again, not only for your benefit but for the benefit of the community itself.

 

[xadmx]

i thought i would post my prospective as a potential customer.

i was going to place a order wih one of these vendors you are talking bout, i even emailed them and was about to part wih my cash.
but after seeing how unprofessional thay have been on here it put me off, so i just ordered from a random guy from china.
i have owned my own company many years ago but due to ill health i am no longer able to, i would of never even thought off trying to run a competitor down by bad
mouthing them especially on a open forum.
ad

 

[neptronix]

Amen, dude. That is exactly how i bought my first hub motor kit 6 years ago.

Vendor A and B were squabbling on the forum.. Vendor C came long, was going into threads where people needed help with his product and helping the customer out in public, and not posting vitriol.. seemed to know his products up and down... so i bought from vendor C.

 

[teslanv]

I would very much appreciate it if vendors would simply focus on product development, cost/price efficiency, and product reliability.
As a vendor, if you are "winning" at this, take some pride for sure, but be humble about it.

 

[cell_man]

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[cell_man]

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[Lurkin]

I'd love to see threads from each vendor, detailing the things they have worked on and/or have developed in the absence of discussing their peers.

Theres many whispers of work conducted on the forum of who implemented a change with a manufacturer or developed a particular product, but I don't think its as common that they are ventured by the vendor themselves or are they explained with much detail from the genuine original source. Having a centralised place per vendor to offer guidance, information or discussion about developments would be a great way to find vendors who are actually developing things and will create a place to specifically discuss them. I guess the value the other way is it gives forum users a means to indicate to vendors what they actually want, offering information about new needs etc.

I also believe vendors also come by far, far more knowledge than ends up on the forum or in the wiki, which has tremendous value to forum users. I would be great to see more interaction from vendors with information sharing in that respect. I appreciate that most will probably consider that proprietary or valuable 'in-house' information...

Obviously this poses disclosure issues with competitors etc, but I'd find it far more convincing than seeing another thread of argy bargy. Anyway, food for thought....

 

[xadmx]

I would very much appreciate it if vendors would simply focus on product development, cost/price efficiency, and product reliability.
As a vendor, if you are "winning" at this, take some pride for sure, but be humble about it.

Can't agree more.


@nobody in particular
Does that mean you should also, just put your head in the sand and pretend that crap you were sent, didn't really happen? I'm guessing that is a yes.

I'm guessing I should also re-think my recommendations, advice and specifications, in case it offends anyone? This is a bit more tricky. I guess I can only make suggestions and offer reasons for what is being observed, when the supplier is some distant entity, that is unlikely to be offended.

So long as I am clear on what I'm allowed to do and say, I'll try to play by those rules, to avoid setting anyone off, on a midnight rampage. Of course, I will do my best to respect the privacy of personal communications on ES, no matter what was said, and who it was said to.


BTW, I did recently see a Mod post up a private PM (it did appear to me. that the purpose was to bash a user, with a different viewpoint to him). So, I guess I am not the only 1, that needs to work on that particular point, regarding the sanctity of private communications. I have to admit, seeing that, did make me think it was kind of ok, to do so too.

Scouts honour, I'll be a good boy and avoid any more squabbles in future

i think the best way to handle it is to make a reply on the forum so users can see you have responded then take it into private pm. but its a tricky situation if the other person keeps posting things.
but getting worked up and keep posting petty attacks at one another really makes anyone look unprofessional. and from a potential customer point of view makes you think of what type of service you will be getting.

this is not directed at you but just an overview of the situation.
adam

 

[cell_man]

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[Lurkin]

I'd love to see threads from each vendor, detailing the things they have worked on and/or have developed in the absence of discussing their peers.

Theres many whispers of work conducted on the forum of who implemented a change with a manufacturer or developed a particular product, but I don't think its as common that they are ventured by the vendor themselves or are they explained with much detail from the genuine original source. Having a centralised place per vendor to offer guidance, information or discussion about developments would be a great way to find vendors who are actually developing things and will create a place to specifically discuss them. I guess the value the other way is it gives forum users a means to indicate to vendors what they actually want, offering information about new needs etc.

I also believe vendors also come by far, far more knowledge than ends up on the forum or in the wiki, which has tremendous value to forum users. I would be great to see more interaction from vendors with information sharing in that respect. I appreciate that most will probably consider that proprietary or valuable 'in-house' information...

Obviously this poses disclosure issues with competitors etc, but I'd find it far more convincing than seeing another thread of argy bargy. Anyway, food for thought....

Personally, my understanding, is that showing my stuff, and what I am working on (as a reasonably well known supplier/manufacturer), is viewed as advertising and is not tolerated on ES. It seems to me, that if you are a smaller manufacturer, or doing something a bit more specialized, then it seems to be ok and it is acceptable to show your work and the various stages you went through. I don't personally object to that stance, or have a problem with it and can appreciate it helps to avoid the place being spammed to death.

If I am misreading the current status quo, then of course I would be happy show a bit more, but that would need some form of approval, before I would do so.

Its a very sad day if technical information or discussion is going undocumented on here simply due to fear of moderation or lack of a clear, transparent and appropriate place for it to be posted.

I have tried contacting a vendor before to invite information to be sent to me by PM, particularly with regard to BBS units for the purposes of updating the wiki. To date, nothing has been forthcoming and I gave up at that point contacting vendors for information. I assumed it was due to not wanting to provide information that a competitor could access or spending time on something noncommercial without gain. Perhaps I gave up to easily, as I too have a day job! I hadn't thought that it might relate to moderation! Fair dinkum, that's just crazy. It's pretty clear this is just leading to contravening communicating the very information the forum is about!

If this vendor identification/link to sales activity is really that important, I see no reason why there cannot be a additional section to the sales area called "Vendor Developments" or "Vendor Information". A thread per vendor (who wants it) makes perfect sense to me. It would clearly identify to forum users that the information is from a vendor (and thus may have a sales relationship, even if it is a weak one) and yet still provide the information for those who choose to read it.

Without trying to encourage any more discussion on vendor disputes, simple rules need to be clearly identified and followed by mods consistently. Its pretty clear to me that should begin with vendors refraining from discussing each other on the forum, period. Obviously, this must be backed by disciplining those who choose to, consistently across the board. I don't think there's much value in discussing this much further other than trolling for more drama. Its a simple but pretty nasty issue which requires a simple and consistent solution.

The better question is, what positive reaction can come from this discussion?

 

[neptronix]

When did "other toxic discussions" become a place for extreme moderation?
Does it truly matter if the discussion is one of personal etiquette such as "Moderating members i.e. Cha--" thread started by a new member or if the main subjects are vendors?
Do vendors have more responsibility to act professionally on this forum? Even in OTD?
Does it benefit users to know a bit more about the products and their differences, including their respective owners?

You must have not seen the thread where vendors were sharing vitriolic private emails / PMs from other vendors which were not meant to be released.
Which is a good thing.

I am an extremely pro free speech dude.. there is very little censorship here even when someone is bucking the social order or posting absolute garbage.
People get away with a lot here... i love it.. you love it.. be thankful for what we have.

But there has to be a limit. The limit is when people start posting things that affect people's livelihoods. Large vendors employ a lot of people.
We do not like seeing this place used as a vehicle to slander a business to try to destroy the reputation of a biz that otherwise seems to be serving the community.
On the same end, i do not want to see preferential treatment happening either.

I'd easily find half a dozen examples of vendors being silenced, shamed, or otherwise told not to behave in a dishonest way when attempting to interact with the public on this forum. Usually this has to do with marketing a particular product in the wrong forum, posting under multiple usernames, etc. but the underlying notion is the same IMO. However, this moderation has not been equal.

What we've seen particularly over the past 12+ months is a tainting of this environment by collusion between mods and at least one vendor.
It doesn't help that some vendors are being treated with higher regard than other members.

If this is true, please send me a big PM with examples and i will look into it.

I was personally targeted by and threatened with mobster-style retaliation by multiple people associated with Lunacycle companies. This came in response to a claim which they first denied then briefly conceded, as multiple users confirmed my assertions.
I cannot fathom any member or EM3EV, ebikes.ca, or any other respectable vendor behaving in this way. If a new vendor behaved in this way I would expect that they would almost certainly be escorted to the exit without regard to their supposed stature.

An administrator and a moderator were both witnesses to these events, yet afaik nothing was done to enforce the forum rules aside from one unrelated user changing the word "user" to "PM" presumably in an effort to usurp moderation.

I don't like to hear this. Please send me a PM about that too and i will examine your case. Let's not drag it out here.

I am sorry i am not more active on here. I work 60 hours a week, have a wife, and run the endless sphere facebook page. There are not enough hours in the day.

 

[neptronix]

Its a very sad day if technical information or discussion is going undocumented on here simply due to fear of moderation or lack of a clear, transparent and appropriate place for it to be posted.

I have tried contacting a vendor before to invite information to be sent to me by PM, particularly with regard to BBS units for the purposes of updating the wiki. To date, nothing has been forthcoming and I gave up at that point contacting vendors for information. I assumed it was due to not wanting to provide information that a competitor could access or spending time on something noncommercial without gain. Perhaps I gave up to easily, as I too have a day job! I hadn't thought that it might relate to moderation! Fair dinkum, that's just crazy. It's pretty clear this is just leading to contravening communicating the very information the forum is about!

If this vendor identification/link to sales activity is really that important, I see no reason why there cannot be a additional section to the sales area called "Vendor Developments" or "Vendor Information". A thread per vendor (who wants it) makes perfect sense to me. It would clearly identify to forum users that the information is from a vendor (and thus may have a sales relationship, even if it is a weak one) and yet still provide the information for those who choose to read it.

Without trying to encourage any more discussion on vendor disputes, simple rules need to be clearly identified and followed by mods consistently. Its pretty clear to me that should begin with vendors refraining from discussing each other on the forum, period. Obviously, this must be backed by disciplining those who choose to, consistently across the board. I don't think there's much value in discussing this much further other than trolling for more drama. Its a simple but pretty nasty issue which requires a simple and consistent solution.

The better question is, what positive reaction can come from this discussion?

I 1000000000000% agree with you that we need some changes on moderation in regards to vendors.
I would propose a section be created called 'Vendor Announcements'. Which would be a place where vendors could self promote.
This would solve a lot of problems with how we handle vendors.

But for now, most of these guys have their own web pages where they can detail all this information.

 

[nicobie]

yep, It does look like it's time to change what we now have regarding vendor moderation. If all vendors acted like Justin we wouldn't be having this problem. That ain't gonna happen.

It was a vendor problem that caused Amberwolf to quit. Dogman hasn't posted in awhile either. I'd understand if spinning magnets quit too, after the crap he has taken recently.

 

[spinningmagnets]

 

"...I'd understand if spinning magnets quit too, after the crap he has taken recently..."

No worries, mate. I've got thick skin, and I've been wearing long pants for a while now. It's been decades since I cried myself to sleep. I spent six years married to a woman where I'm certain that one of her personalities was a particularly irritable demon from one of the rougher neighborhoods in hell.

Sorry to see Michael taking a sabbatical, but...endless-sphere moderation is not a problem, plus...it gives me an excuse for drinking.

(I drank before endless sphere, but now I have an excuse)

 

[cell_man]

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[amberwolf]

I would propose a section be created called 'Vendor Announcements'. Which would be a place where vendors could self promote.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

 

[cell_man]

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[neptronix]

I would propose a section be created called 'Vendor Announcements'. Which would be a place where vendors could self promote.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=11

I think a lot of people are confused about what that section is for.

It seems like a lot of sections we have on the site are built around what knightmb/fechter/whoever thought people would post about, but what they like to post about and where is a bit different.

I think that re-imagining the sections would help, especially when it comes to properly categorizing posts with commercial intent. This could cut down on conflict and moderation quite a bit.

At some point us long term guys we are going to have to have a conference about this stuff and start planning to retrofit this place with new ideas.

 

[cell_man]

It's about time I moved on.
ATB ES

 

[nutnspecial]

But WHY????

Whatever reason you're leaving, you should offer explanation.

Admit if you were wrong and fight if you weren't, don't stop/give up because it's stuck somewhere inbetween!

Your posts were always mature (as is the way you do business) imo, and alot of people have no doubt already taken cues and learned from that. Obviously there is and will always be more too, and we can also all always improve.

 

[cell_man]

But WHY????

Whatever reason you're leaving, you should offer explanation.

Admit if you were wrong and fight if you weren't, don't stop/give up because it's stuck somewhere inbetween!

Your posts were always mature (as is the way you do business) imo, and alot of people have no doubt already taken cues and learned from that. Obviously there is and will always be more too, and we can also all always improve.

I'm sorry, but I've got better and more productive things to do with my time. There is a lot going on with the business, my family and new products that need to be worked through, so I really don't need to be getting into all of this any more. That time and energy that I've wasted of late, was just that, a waste. If anyone is interested, I'll try to put out some information and updates, through alternative channels.

There is too much bias and story telling going on around here for my tastes. Frankly it has gone downhill from what I remembered.

Good luck, hope it all works out ok. I'm sure it will, there are still a few voices of reason floating around.

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW,, I was just on a vacation, and having too much fun partying to bother with ES for a few weeks.

Obviously I have to try like hell to stay out of vendor squabbles, since I work for E-Bikekit.com/ E-trikekit.com/ Liberty Trike.com. But it's hard to moderate the vendor squabbles for anybody. We all have our bias in the background. All I can say is what I don't say. The list of vendors I send folks to is VERY short.

 

[Lenk42602]

At some point us long term guys we are going to have to have a conference about this stuff and start planning to retrofit this place with new ideas.

 

[markz]

I did not realize there was this "inter vendor squabble" going on.
It does not change my mind about who to buy from either way.
It just reinforces, to me, that its best to think twice before posting something online.
I have always tried to be careful, but when running a business, I think its wise to be even more careful.
What comes to mind is when people in the public eye state that "there is no comment at this time" but when defending your own business its easy to see the fling response of the snake bite for defense.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Luna Cycle recently had a surprise inspection due to an "anonymous tip". This was after many hints that Eric better back off or there might be a DOT inspection, because they "happen all the time". This is the tactic that shut down the business at Ampedbikes, run by a nice guy named Danny.

The people who did this won't admit to it, but...they might smirk and say a jerk like Eric deserves it, because he has an abrasive personality. The truth is that Eric sells batteries and mid drives for a lower price than the next four biggest vendors. The funny part is that Eric is making a lot of profit at his lower prices. Think about that for a few minutes. The vendors who have been "forced" to lower their prices to compete with Luna Cycle have seen a big bump in volume. This means more customers have been able to buy a kit and battery, regardless of who you bought your kit and battery from.

If you owned your own business, and employed 12 people who depended on you for their job...and you knew someone was trying to shut your business down?...your personality might be a little abrasive too, yes?