Investor needed for Tesla Scooter!

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Hi segaodma,

I'd like to (respectfully) make two comments:
liveforphysics said:
As far as 1/3rd of the weight, 4-5x the power bicycles go, here's one of my bikes (controller limited to 100A 100v per motor)...

segaodma said:
You compare those tiny electric motors to a 44lbs (20kg) AC motor?!...
20kg is a feature? I think most people would agree that ~7kg total for two motors with up to 10kW each are a superior solution to a 20kg motor (particularly for a small EV like an Ebike or Scooter), probably with less power.

segaodma said:
Nothing spectacular for a long vehicle that has no weight on the back wheel and has so tiny tires. If it had our motor there, there would have been no tire left!
Even with the tire spin it does 0-100km in about 4.5 seconds. Your scooter has better acceleration?
 
liveforphysics said:
... so with nothing to sync...
... and that is where the details do the difference. I never said we are efficient. But we will be very soon! And with the new technologies that would probably lead to batteries with much greater capacity the difference between BLDC and AC in efficiency would be unimportant comparing to durability. When you start making cars with BLDC that would last 10+ years... call me and tell me how you did it and what is their efficiency in the last few years when your magnets get demagnetized by the heat. AC will prevail at the end.
 
segaodma said:
liveforphysics said:
... so with nothing to sync...
... and that is where the details do the difference. I never said we are efficient. But we will be very soon! And with the new technologies that would probably lead to batteries with much greater capacity the difference between BLDC and AC in efficiency would be unimportant comparing to durability. When you start making cars with BLDC that would last 10+ years... call me and tell me how you did it and what is their efficiency in the last few years when your magnets get demagnetized by the heat. AC will prevail at the end.
Dude you need to lern to use the Google machine :roll:
 
10 year examples of PMBLDC. Well, we've got thousands of 7, 8 and 9 year examples from every hybrid car on the road. Insight, Prius, Civic, Explorer, etc.

I've never once heard of a de-magnetize incident, and they also have to deal with the heating from a big ICE engine sitting next to them.
 
liveforphysics said:
10 year examples of PMBLDC. Well, we've got thousands of 7, 8 and 9 year examples from every hybrid car on the road. Insight, Prius, Civic, Explorer, etc.

I've never once heard of a de-magnetize incident, and they also have to deal with the heating from a big ICE engine sitting next to them.

Absolutely. I'm on my second Prius, the first one did 60,000 faultless miles in three years. A colleague has a 1st generation Prius which is around 8 years old and has well over 100,000 miles on the clock. I guess these PMBLDC motors just aren't at all reliable or well-proven yet................

Jeremy
 
segaodma, I'm on your side! You can TOTALLY school Luke. Keep it up, he'll cave in the face of your inevitable logic any minute now, and concede defeat.

I bet if you show him how wrong he is, (and that Harris fellow too) people with money will recognize the value of your product and start negotiations!

Just don't give up!

Katou
 
Jeremy Harris said:
liveforphysics said:
10 year examples of PMBLDC. Well, we've got thousands of 7, 8 and 9 year examples from every hybrid car on the road. Insight, Prius, Civic, Explorer, etc.

I've never once heard of a de-magnetize incident, and they also have to deal with the heating from a big ICE engine sitting next to them.

Absolutely. I'm on my second Prius, the first one did 60,000 faultless miles in three years. A colleague has a 1st generation Prius which is around 8 years old and has well over 100,000 miles on the clock. I guess these PMBLDC motors just aren't at all reliable or well-proven yet................

Jeremy


We're off base Jeremy. When you need ultimate reliability, you gotta do an HVAC blackstar non-toothed V-belt pulley (for efficiency and all weather reliable performance ;) ) connected up to a cutting edge motor that weighs as much as some complete ebikes, and follow it up with a magic TO-220 (because they are cheap) 6-fet controller featuring the pinnacle in ripple current filtering technology, the poly-film cap. And to keep it going on the 10 year reliability theme, you go with lead acid for ultimate long-term performance.

We should all take notes on this guys, this is a production ready EV, I will do a cliff notes version for those that haven't been keeping up (likely too busy googleing fet packages):

1. Use 6x TO-220 fets because it saves a few dollars per unit over using something sized for the job. In the long run, controller failures for a product are way cheaper to handle, and better for the product reputation than using a FET package designed for the job.

2. Use poly-film caps, because it shows that you don't know anything and have to google fet packages if you were to suggest they aren't optimal.

3. Sealed Lead Acid batteries. Because you need 10 year reliability, and can't leave that up to things like magnets staying magnetized.

4. Induction motor. What other motor technology could even get you a 44lbs motor that does 6kw peak? It's a no-brainer.

5. Spread your FETs apart like 2-3 inches on the sink, and run some 10-12awg solid copper for bus bars. Inductive bounce? NO! You've got current ripple locked down solid with the poly films, no chance for a reliability issue (source inductive bouncing gate into transitional region much?) with a well thought out parts layout like that.

6. Run smooth V-belts for the drive. You know, because it makes sense to convert >10% of the battery weight you're packing around into heating your pulleys and belts, and when the system get's wet/gritty, it only performs better.

7. Go for production funding after you've made something electric that drives around. Obviously it's the best of it's kind, it's totally unique in idea and concept, and incorporates so many new advantages over the thousands of other faster more powerful longer ranged gas engine scooters people have bolted an electric motor onto (which will all fail of course because they use magnets.)

8. Know that this forum and it's members have nothing to offer you. You've achieved EV nirvana, there can be nothing to learn from this collection of folks.
 
Don't forget the air cooling!
 
6kw from a 44kg motor? I've had 3kw from my magic pie hub motor lol

The people on here really know their stuff and are always happy to help and share knowledge, rarely in life do humans act as one for a goal so show some manners and maybe join in with the knowledge.
 
OT, but those are whippings and lashings... As someone still paid to do this sort of knotty business I am *thrilled* to see this old-school tech mixed up with power electronics!
ll0K

HAL9000v2.0 said:
Hey, Luke!

What is that knitting for?
Boring? or just holds cables together?
 
liveforphysics said:
1. Use 6x TO-220 fets because it saves a few dollars per unit over using something sized for the job.
I really admire your job... wow! A nice... now much... few thousands toy?! The first thing the investor asked us was not the power, nor the efficiency... it was the cost and how much can it be sold! That is the way that the electric vehicles have to pass to see a factory production daylight. Our WHOLE controller, including the PIC, the electronics (with 6 FETs!) and everything other costs less that ONE of your FETs. We know that the scooter is heavy... we know that the motor is heavy. That will be changed. Even though like this it has a power to drive two persons on a uphill and 35mph on a flat road... that would be something like 700+lbs. Imagine putting them on your yellow speedster and it's performances with it. I quite understand your way of humor even though I'm not from US... we will talk again... very soon. Here... for your eyes only!
 
:lol: Luke I almost bust a rib here when your done with those cables you should get on stage with that :lol: thats a very British like sense of humour you have there sir!! he he

On a more serious note I have looked at the scooters video and sadly it doesnt really do a lot for me :? however I love it when anyone rips out a gas motor and puts in any kind of e-drive on a scoot.

Jeremy also makes a good point in the name Tesla with it being classed as passing off however I must add that Apple take things way way way too far in defending this to the Point now where they recently chased down one of the "little guys" for simply marketing his product with a capitalised I in the product name intrinsically announcing to the world that they now own the alphabet as well, of course the Australian court threw it out.

I think the name is the least of the worries considering the design, its such a tough market to crack :? ask the CEO of vectrix just getting the thing past EMC certification and CE verification for a start would prove quite a financial hurdle.

Endless-sphere is home for the home brewer IMHO, its such a brilliant forum for the free exchange of information"Free" being the key part.

Thanks again Luke that really is very funny

Knoxie
 
vanilla ice said:
After all that exchange, some props are due to the OP for not turning tail..
Welcome to ES :)
Sometimes wasting time for someone that can't understand you is useless.
Thank you.. anyway.
 
We understand you OK, but it's worth remembering that this is a multicultural community and it's very easy to be misunderstood - heck, us Brits on here are for ever misunderstanding our transatlantic cousins, and we have the advantage of (at least notionally) speaking the same language..........

It's also worth noting that there are quite a few people on this forum who know far, far more about EV systems than you do. Assuming we're all incompetent and know nothing about what you've done is not a particularly good way to make friends or gain benefit from being a member of this forum.

Jeremy

Jeremy
 
segaodma said:
vanilla ice said:
After all that exchange, some props are due to the OP for not turning tail..
Welcome to ES :)
Sometimes wasting time for someone that can't understand you is useless.
Thank you.. anyway
.


hehe... yet Luke (liveforphysics) & Jeremy both took time out of their day to educate you ... :p

kfong said:
LOL. Luke, you rule!

Made me laugh as much as when Luke 'educated' that twit with the electric roadster porches that thought
he had the answer to everything and announced repeatedly everyone/thing on these boards was wrong...forget his name, short-n-fat rolly polley
white haired fella with way too much money LoL..

segaodma...look forward to your next post....well...not really, but i am looking forward to Luke's response to it very much...

KiM

p.s best of luck with your scooter....you will need it.
 
Oh man so this guy is realy serious? I thought he was just trolloing :roll:
Come on luke dont worry we need to get some KILLA CONTROLERS built. Who cares about this guy!
 
Hi,
segaodma said:
The first thing the investor asked us was not the power, nor the efficiency... it was the cost and how much can it be sold! That is the way that the electric vehicles have to pass to see a factory production daylight. Our WHOLE controller, including the PIC, the electronics (with 6 FETs!) and everything other costs less that ONE of your FETs. We know that the scooter is heavy... we know that the motor is heavy. That will be changed.
If your motor is too heavy why criticize Luke's motors (with roughly 3x the power) for being too light?

Matt-Yellow-Trike-Builder said:
Oh, the 0 to 60 time is not the 3.5 seconds I was hoping for. It is about 4.5 seconds. The rest is tire smoke. I am at the limit (way over the limit) of bicycle tires at this point.

I have actually pulled 800 amps at 44 volts on this thing. So, I am up near 40hp for very small bursts. It will sustain 500 amps at 46 volts (23kw - 31hp) pretty much the whole time it is under load.

segaodma said:
Even though like this it has a power to drive two persons on a uphill and 35mph on a flat road... that would be something like 700+lbs. Imagine putting them on your yellow speedster and it's performances with it.
How much slower do you think it would be?

IMO your explanation of the reasoning behind your build is interesting and constructive. When you slam everyone else's builds and talk about how much superior your build is it's not constructive even if it were true, and so far you are not even close. Be nice to see you succeed but if you do its not a good reason to dump on someone else.
 
MitchJi said:
If your motor is too heavy why criticize Luke's motors (with roughly 3x the power) for being too light?
I never said his motor is worse in performances. I'm thinking of a global world need, not some kid playing in the garage. Imagine whole world turning from gasoline to electric... do you think that DC motors have the future? Imagine the need for magnets... With the batteries technology that is coming, soon there will be so powerful batteries that the difference between DC with magnets and AC inductions would be unimportant. AC motors are much easier to build and can be controlled much better than the DC ones. Most of the people here have no clue what PIC is and how it works. I am talking about digitally controlled motors while some older members here have no clue what is that, playing with analog controllers that are 10x the price and thinking they have the power... blah! I would really want to know who are the guys here that know assembler programming and discard the spammers that are here to spend their time in a brainless humor.

Matt-Yellow-Trike-Builder said:
I have actually pulled 800 amps at 44 volts on this thing.
Pulling 800A@44V is insane. You need cables like two fingers! I would rather work at triple higher voltage and triple less amps! Having those amps means at least 10% lose in heat and power ONLY in the wires! This guy is just wasting copper.

MitchJi said:
How much slower do you think it would be?
It won't move from the ground... it will fall apart with that construction.

MitchJi said:
IMO your explanation of the reasoning behind your build is interesting and constructive.
I hope that's not a joke...

MitchJi said:
When you slam everyone else's builds
I know I can and I will, I just need time and funds. I hope these are serious.

MitchJi said:
and so far you are not even close.
That is what you think!

MitchJi said:
but if you do its not a good reason to dump on someone else.
I'm just tired of arguing with ANALOG geniuses!
 
Arlo1 said:
Oh man so this guy is realy serious? I thought he was just trolloing :roll:
Come on luke dont worry we need to get some KILLA CONTROLERS built. Who cares about this guy!
Making a killa controller takes much more than expensive fets and soldering...
 
segaodma said:
Arlo1 said:
Oh man so this guy is realy serious? I thought he was just trolloing :roll:
Come on luke dont worry we need to get some KILLA CONTROLERS built. Who cares about this guy!
Making a killa controller takes much more than expensive fets and soldering...
Yup it sure does and thats why I get help from Guys like luke, Methods, Big moose, Jeremy ect. There is so so so many very smart people on this forum its not even funny!
 

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segaodma said:
I never said his motor is worse in performances. I'm thinking of a global world need, not some kid playing in the garage. Imagine whole world turning from gasoline to electric... do you think that DC motors have the future? Imagine the need for magnets... With the batteries technology that is coming, soon there will be so powerful batteries that the difference between DC with magnets and AC inductions would be unimportant. AC motors are much easier to build and can be controlled much better than the DC ones. Most of the people here have no clue what PIC is and how it works. I am talking about digitally controlled motors while some older members here have no clue what is that, playing with analog controllers that are 10x the price and thinking they have the power... blah! I would really want to know who are the guys here that know assembler programming and discard the spammers that are here to spend their time in a brainless humor.

You're a an ignorant retard, you know that? You come on here and make these sparkling generalizations and you have NO CLUE what you're talking about. Sure, you build a controller, contratufuckalations, so have many of us!!!! You want a frocking cookie? You're controller sounds like it belongs at a sideshow circus playing music for a merry go round. Keep at it, maybe you'll come up with something worthy of an investor. I don't think you realize, you're still just a "kid playing in the garage"......

You keep saying that we're saying "dc motors have the future", but you just aren't getting it.... you haven't been listening NOR reading any of the information on this forum. NO one on here has posted anything anything about a DC motor, those are brushless DC motors (AC Synchronous machines, look it up), which are much more similar to AC than a brushed motor. Induction motors CAN BE cheap, sure, but for performance, nothing out there beats a brushless DC motor for efficiency and power/weight ratio. I don't think you even know the difference between BLDC and a PMDC motor.

You assume that no one knows what a PIC is, way to go idiot, it's obvious that you haven't been paying ANY attention, nor reading. You've got what, 11 total posts and no one has ever heard of you. Lots of people on this forum have used PIC's. I've been using them since the mid 90's, been using assembly code the whole time and have 3 or 4 different types of programmers sitting in my pile of uC stuff. Most of the PCB's that I've designed for my projects use a PIC. Saying that most of us don't have a clue is IGNORANT. And FYI, no one designs analog controllers, everything is digital these days. Can't remember actually seeing ANY analog controllers actually, so that just proves my point, you're an ignoramous.


You're assuming all this off the wall crap and its obvious you don't know how to read, can't pay attention and are one of the cockiest people I've come across on this forum.

Here's some stuff to re-itterate.... since you just can't get it through you're thick skull:
NO ONE has posted anything about DC motors. Those are Brushless DC (Synchronous AC) motors.
NO ONE is designing analog controllers
MOST PEOPLE HERE know what a PIC is, and MANY OF US have designed projects using a PIC uC and Assembly code
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW PEOPLE HERE THAT HAVE DESIGNED CONTROLLERS, and yours is a poor excuse for an ACIM controller
There's a difference between BLDC and PMDC
you're stupid




And I figured I'd add my impression of your project:
Your project is unimpressive. You act like you've invented something so spectacular, but in the end, its just 6 FET's on a board with some very obious mistakes in design. You step the frequency, rather than have a smooth transition of the throttle, which just goes to show your lack of programming skill. You picked a heavy ass motor, used Lead acid and look like 99% of the other conversion projects out there. Its unoriginal. Its ugly. You're ignorant and can't read for shit.

Just because you got picked up on hackaday doesn't mean you're a god........


For the record: That ACIM that was posted earlier, is in my motorcycle right now. I'm very familiar with EV Systems.... maybe you should take a look at my website http://www.evfr.net. I've been helping people put EV's together for the last 3 years. I'm an Electrical Engineer that graduated from Virginia Tech with a minor in Math. I worked my way through college as a Co-operative Education student for 6 years. I've been working in industrial automation for over 10 years. I've worked at GE Energy on wind power and industrial drive systems, Blueprint Automation on food packaging robots and currently work at Leviton designing Lighting control systems..... oh, and I've worked with Synkromotive, Shorepower, EVComponents, Manzanita Micro, Elithion. I organized a large order ($25k) of batteries for this website last year. I've designed quite a few EV systems, you've designed ONE that I can see.



Can you maybe explain to me one thing?

who the hell are you?
 
segaodma said:
MitchJi said:
If your motor is too heavy why criticize Luke's motors (with roughly 3x the power) for being too light?
I never said his motor is worse in performances. I'm thinking of a global world need, not some kid playing in the garage. Imagine whole world turning from gasoline to electric... do you think that DC motors have the future? Imagine the need for magnets... With the batteries technology that is coming, soon there will be so powerful batteries that the difference between DC with magnets and AC inductions would be unimportant. AC motors are much easier to build and can be controlled much better than the DC ones. Most of the people here have no clue what PIC is and how it works. I am talking about digitally controlled motors while some older members here have no clue what is that, playing with analog controllers that are 10x the price and thinking they have the power... blah! I would really want to know who are the guys here that know assembler programming and discard the spammers that are here to spend their time in a brainless humor.

Matt-Yellow-Trike-Builder said:
I have actually pulled 800 amps at 44 volts on this thing.
Pulling 800A@44V is insane. You need cables like two fingers! I would rather work at triple higher voltage and triple less amps! Having those amps means at least 10% lose in heat and power ONLY in the wires! This guy is just wasting copper.

MitchJi said:
How much slower do you think it would be?
It won't move from the ground... it will fall apart with that construction.

MitchJi said:
IMO your explanation of the reasoning behind your build is interesting and constructive.
I hope that's not a joke...

MitchJi said:
When you slam everyone else's builds
I know I can and I will, I just need time and funds. I hope these are serious.

MitchJi said:
and so far you are not even close.
That is what you think!

MitchJi said:
but if you do its not a good reason to dump on someone else.
I'm just tired of arguing with ANALOG geniuses!

Frankly, segaodama, I've had enough of being rudely derided and insulted by you. You clearly haven't looked at work on this forum, or had the wit to understand that many of us are reasonably highly qualified.

Taking issue with your offensively made points, in order:

Few here are using DC motors, the vast majority of us are using permanent magnet brushless motors, which are actually three phase brushless machines.

PICs are very old technology. The controllers most here are using are based on dedicated motor control digital processors, either from the Infineon range or similar, which have the big advantage of dedicated three phase timing logic built in. Other are developing custom controllers themselves, using arguably better processors than the old PICs, like those from the ATMega range for example.

To assume that we can't write code in assembler or higher level languages is ignorant and offensive. I was writing machine code for 8 bit microprocessors (the 6502 and 6800 series) over 25 years ago and can still hack code for most processors currently available. Others here are very well qualified in writing code for a variety of platforms, take a look at some of the threads where people are developing dedicated stuff on here.

I've not seen anyone on here with an analogue controller for some time, so best get your facts straight before firing off yet more crap.

All you seem to want to do is piss everyone here off with crass, incorrect and offensive comment. Frankly, I'm not at all convinced that you have a clue about what your trying to do, as all your ill-informed comments have done is convince me of your own ignorance. Not a good way to get help and assistance from a very knowledgeable group of people who have collectively achieved many hundreds of times more than you have.

Jeremy
 
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