Kawasaki KE100 conversion

[veloman]

Thanks for the heads up on the brake cam.. I will pay close attention to it. The Shultz engineering emoto conversion fliped the wheel around and it worked for him (drum brake).

I really like the moped wheel idea. Call me crazy, but I want to experiment with human power on this as I think with my strong legs, I can reduce city consumption and get off the line faster. It works on my 120lb ebike.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[gogo]

Heh, I was going to suggest the freewheel could be used for Human power input, but thought you'd gone to complete motorcycle with this build. Brushed motors and their controllers have an easier time with starting from a stall than brushless do, but its still a great place to add a boost if possible, plus it gives you good low speed 'torque control' for parking maneuvers and the such.

Upon reflection, though, I wonder what the speed and weight capacity of a Jawa wheel is. 2-up, cargo, or high speed might start to test the limit.

As for the brake cam, the main things would be a dab of grease in the two different points of contact and making sure they're as smooth as the original contact points.

 

[veloman]

I found a cheap Emoto G6 3000w scooter the other day. Came with SLAs which got hot when charging. Took them out and put in my 16s A123 9ah pack for some testing. Got 3400w peak and the weight reduction was huge. The scooter is now 180lbs or about the same weight my KE100 will be. I will have around 7kw peak on it, so it should have twice the performance (and 20mph higher top speed). Before I took the lead out, I rode it with my gf on the back. Performance was acceptable for city streets, though it didn't want to accelerate much from a low speed on a hill. I have no worries that my KE with 7kw, and 100lbs less weight will do just fine with my gf on the back. Of course, if I do get a battery capable of 30kw, that should be interesting!

One thing I noticed - the scooter doesn't use a contactor. With a controller shut down wire, it doesn't seem like it's needed, but not a bad safety.

Back to the KE - with the flipped swing arm, I decided to use the same suspension mount holes, which meant lowering it ~3". Seat height is looking like about 24" now! Enduro turned cruiser! Should be great for my frontal area reduction, and cornering. There should be just enough space for tire clearance, but if not I can raise the seat supports with some quick cutting and welding to make more room for the tire under suspension bottoming out. I should have the motor mounted this weekend. I picked up this $42 60v brushed controller. Reviews say it puts out 50-100amps or so. Not much functionality, but a cheap backup. I may also do a 2nd motor for ease of adding more of my small ebike battery. I just won't be able to power the same motor at the same time with both controllers.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/170937655932?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

Also got my RS232 - USB adapter for programming the Kelly controller. $3.24 on ebay, beats the $25 elsewhere!

 

[veloman]

On the topic of frontal area. I made this rough comparison using pictures of myself on my main ebike (left), recumbent, and KE100).

I feel pretty good about efficiency at speed. At that's without even considering drag reduction from a motorcycle fairing. On the motorcycle posture - I meant to tuck down, but I did not (as I did in the ebike picture on the left).

The front tire is a 19x2.75 knobby. I'm looking to change that to a 17 or 18x2.5 slick. Rear tire is a 17x2.75 moped tire. Rolling resistance shouldn't be too too much more than my ebike.

 

[veloman]

The KE is finally running. I got the big 72v 600amp Kelly controller hooked up. Set the max current to 20% (lowest setting) for now. I am currently using a cheap Chinese hall throttle and there is very little modulation with power/speed. Very hard to keep steady. Need to fix that. Will try different throttles. I did choose the hall effect throttle setting in the programming. Starts at 0% to 100% max throttle. Maybe I could play with those figures too.

The other thing I need to work on is the chain line and making sure the rear sprocket is 100% centered. The chain seems to be making too much noise. It is a very quiet motor though, and is instant off the line torque. I hit a peak of 3kw tonight in the neighborhood. Power output is reduced at lower speed. Might pull more power at over 30mph. My max was 27mph, the chain noise is scary at that speed. 37wh/mile with a very jerky throttle. No-load power draw at 24mph is 123watts.

I can pretty easily pick up the entire bike. Should be about 148lbs with the 72v 8ah headway battery.

I think I'm going to add an auxiliary 12v battery for lights and controller power. I have lots of those, and lacking in main battery ah.

Also need to set up the rear brake pull mechanism since I switched it to the left side. Probably will use a left hand brake lever.

I put my 4g wires on for the motor. But am using 10g with 30amp andersons on the battery side for now (they didn't get warm at all tonight). I'd like to be able to make a parallel harness for my two 23s lifepo4 packs, using a diode on each to prevent current flow between the two. Their voltages are slightly different since my other pack is 16s a123 with 7s headway, vs 23s headway. Not much, but about 1v or so. That would prevent regen function however. I'm not worrying about regen at the moment, I just want to get it complete and ready for inspection asap.

 

[gogo]

Thanks for the progress update. My friend just put that 2.75 X 19 tire and 3.5 X 18 rear on his DT125 and they seem smooth enough with max inflation, whatever that was. Can't beat the price, less than $100 for both including tubes and shipping.

Man, I love small motorcycle agility. Mopeds just don't have enough suspension.

How did you calculate the 24 MPH no-load?

Are you using all three new sprockets and chain? Its amazing how much I can hear the chain while coasting in neutral with the engine off on the DT125. Its not loud, more like a low hum, but the engine sound masks it completely.

 

[veloman]

New chain and rear sprocket. Front sprocket is used but looks good. I couldn't find a new one in 420 size that had a 19mm bore. Rear sprocket is bolted to the stock one. Since it doesn't match the hub bolt pattern at all. I'll upload pics when I get it more complete. Chain alignment is off a bit, as well as the rear sprocket not being 100% centered.

It's been a hell of a lot of work. Makes me love my hub motors on the ebikes.

 

[veloman]

I picked up a 2012 Ninja 250 for parts. I'm going to put that front end on the KE, has a nice hydraulic front brake and 17" wheel. Looks like it should fit. Might add a few lbs, but a proper front brake is more than worth it. I can't believe that thing is 375lbs, what a tank.

I also bought some lifepo4 30ah cells from a member here, 20s. Will probably add 3s konion cells in series to get my 72v. Capable of 420amps peak - that's 30kw electrical power.

The weather is crap here now, mid 30s. A bit too cold to do much work in the garage. Average high is 65 here in December.

EDIT: The steerer is not going to fit in the KE, still too big. I need to look at moped forks I think. I swear I could mount a 1 1/8" mtn fork on my KE.

Maybe it's for the best, I'm sure that ninja front end is going to be overkill weight wise.

 

[gogo]

Wow, 2012? If its not a blown motor but instead a crash bike, you might want to check those fork legs for straightness.

 

[Arlo1]

Yes some nice "Dual Headlights".

 

[veloman]

I am starting to make more progress. The Ninja front end was still way too big to fit on the ke (headtube). I got a yz80 front wheel with rotor, and a 17x2.75 IRC NR53 tire. I kept the Ninja front brake caliper and hope to mount it to the ke forks. Still looking for some forks that would fit and have a disk caliper mount.

Here's a sneak peak of the battery mounting location. It will all be enclosed. You can't really see the other half, 10 cells laying on their side on the left side of the bike. I am designing it to be removable in under 30 seconds. That's a must for when it's 100 degrees in the summer, or for charging inside a Starbucks :lol:

I was spending a bit of time souping up my EVT 168 electric scooter. Now that is mostly done, I can move on to the ke. The EVT is nice once you get going, has about 6000w of power, and will do 50mph. Running on 12 yr old CSB SLA batteries, and a 19v 25ah makita konion cell pack as a booster to get a total of 67v. The tiny Kelly KDS72100E has me impressed.

 

[veloman]

Here's a non current pic, but it shows the battery mounted.

Unfortunately, this Gold Peak lifepo4 battery is very disappointing. Dropping to 2.75v/cell under just 1c load is horrible. I have laptop cells that perform better than that. I'm going to remove it and just run my ebike battery which will push more power and weigh a ton less.

If anyone is interested in the Gold Peak cells, or the 600amp Kelly controller, I will sell them. I want a controller that outputs a steady amperage from slow to high speed. Not an increasing level with increase in speed.

 

[gogo]

Those low bars look like they get you into a nice tuck compared to the original cross-brace moto-x bars. There's not a ton of room on my 1980 KE100 and I've been looking at the 'forward-reach' clubman bars to get a bit of room. Have you considered those?

I've also got a 1969 G3SSA 90cc street model that had a low pipe. Its shorter than the KE100 but doesn't have as much suspension travel. It would need some forward-reach clubman bars for me to fit on it.

I thought I saw a couple of aluminum crutches repurposed on your aero windscreen thread post. Here I see an aluminum rim used as a brace for a repurposed and trimmed aluminum fan shroud. I'll be borrowing some of those ideas.

 

[veloman]

Ah, yes. I did make a small headlight fairing out of a cooking pot lid, and used a bicycle rim to support it. I've since taken it off, but may work on something similar again. I decided to use the stock KE headlight mount and case which is a lot more secure. And I found this cafe fairing for cheap on ebay ($40). But need to work on making the hole smaller for my 5" headlight.

The forward reach bars are a good idea. The flat bars on it now are just some old steel bicycle ones.

 

[veloman]

I got the lighting wired up. It was a lot more work than anticipated, doing it all brand new. Rear brake switch works good. I get some pics up soon - the foot lever is all homemade from old bicycle parts. I need to find a way to get the front brake to activate the brake light. Any ideas? I currently have a bicycle brake lever for the front.

I rode it last night with my ebike battery 23s 74v 8ah a123/headway. Pulled 70amps max. CA is acting funny, so I'm not sure of the voltage drop. 30amp andersons handle those peaks without getting warm. I've got 25 new 10ah lifepo4 cells to wire up. So i'll end up with 24s 2p, or 18ah.

The bike is so much more fun to ride than the heavy scooter. Handles great, suspension really rides over stuff well. The DOT headlight is a 5" Harley Davidson, and it puts out some great light, and heat. CA was showing 100watts draw with the lights on. I think 40% of that is from the cheap 12v dcdc converter. I'm thinking of using a 12v battery for lighting, and/or using a led headlight, but keeping the DOT one for legality.

 

[gogo]

I need to find a way to get the front brake to activate the brake light. Any ideas?

Just last night I noticed my G3 has a switch in the front brake cable!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRONT-BRAKE-CABLE-Kawasaki-G3-Bush-Master-90-G4-100-/370061219873?
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/kawasaki/KP-54005-036.html

I doubt the Partzilla item has the switch, you'll probably need to find a used or NOS. Anyway, you can see the cross-reference on the models it was used for.

The stock headlight was only 35W, so you should be able to get the consumption down with a dedicated 12V battery. I ended up drilling out the stock sealed beam and grafting in an automotive H4 bulb. Glass is very hard on cutting tools.

 

[veloman]

Correction: The headlight and taillight draw 68watts on the CA, 75 with high beam. Add 23 for brake light. The CA was all funky last night, giving bad readings.

I think the HD headlight bulb is around 50w rating, so that would make sense. I'm not using the KE headlight.

As for the brake switch - I found this instructable:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Add-a-brake-light-switch-to-a-bicycle-brake-lever/

Perfect. I got myself a pack of 4 NC momentary switches at Radioshack for $4. Maybe add a brake light to my ebike as I've always wanted.

 

[veloman]

I got plates and registered it on Monday. Rode it a few times. Still got some kinks to work out, such as the chain still hits a bolt on the frame under suspension compression. I am getting 48wh/mile with just myself, riding 25-40mph. Seems to pull about 2000w at 40mph. I think the front knobby tire is making vibration, or it's the chain.



The main thing is that the chain noise is loud, and is really killing the electric experience. I am going to test ride some Zero bikes soon and see what they ride like. I have a feeling I am going to go with a hub motor. like this http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/48V-72V-3000W-Spoke-Hub-Motor-for-Electric-Motorcycle-for-Converting-E-motorcycle-High-Quality/313864_575032775.html

After 7.5 miles at 25-40mph, pulling up to 3kw peak, 1000w average, the Perm132 is hot to the touch (90 degree ambiant temps).

I have the 600amp kelly set to the lowest power setting at 20%. Takeoff is bad, so bad that if I'm on an incline it takes a few seconds to get to 10mph. I will up power to 30% as soon as I add my other 24s 10ah lifepo4 pack I just built from Neosonic "5c" cells (thunderstruckev.com garage sale has them for $5ea). I do not like Kelly controllers as they limit amps a lot at lower speed.

Handling of the KE is solid, and slow at higher speeds (prob due to the slacker head tube angle) If I had to swerve at 40mph I would be about 10x more likely to hit the object than I would on my ebikes.

Overall I am a bit worried about this project. The consumption is just so much more than my ebikes. I will be lucky to get 20miles with my fiance on the back. That is about all we need for around town, but it makes it useless for when I want to go out into the burbs on high speed roads (one of the original reasons I built this). The chain noise is the big problem. I can't see using this chain drive for long. Either belt or hub motor. The perm132 shaft could be a hair bent, but I am not sure. I still think without that, the chain noise is still substaintial. But I need to ride some Zero's to get a better perspective.

 

[Scoot440]

I hear you on the chain noise and the EV experience. I have a 2011 Zero XU (the year they still had a chain) and the chain noise is the defining sound when riding it. If I keep it much longer, I will upgrade to the belt drive system from a 2012. My scooter with a Kelly hubmotor is a much more pleasant riding experience. The neighborhood dogs really don't like the chain noise from the Zero. I inspire a chorus of barking everywhere I go.

 

[Arlo1]

I hear you on the chain noise and the EV experience. I have a 2011 Zero XU (the year they still had a chain) and the chain noise is the defining sound when riding it. If I keep it much longer, I will upgrade to the belt drive system from a 2012. My scooter with a Kelly hubmotor is a much more pleasant riding experience. The neighborhood dogs really don't like the chain noise from the Zero. I inspire a chorus of barking everywhere I go.

Might not be the chain. Remember the Dogs can hear the PWM in the motor when you can't my DIY bike with a 2013 75-5 in It gets dogs barking as well with a quiet belt drive but my motor has huge venting on it so its louder then normal.

 

[stuntmanmike]

That's very cool. I especially like the "Mad Max" fairing around the headlamp. Is that from a 70's AMF Harley Davidson ?

 

[gogo]

That's very cool. I especially like the "Mad Max" fairing around the headlamp. Is that from a 70's AMF Harley Davidson ?

The 1/4 fairing is a generic piece you'd find on any DIY racer from the 70's. EMGO still makes them.

 

[veloman]

just search 'cafe fairing' on ebay, they are about $80 shipped. I got mine for half that from someone who cracked the windshield a little. It's not mounted yet, if ever. I plan to start hammering sheet metal into fairings.

 

[veloman]

I've been riding it for real now. Did 24 miles yesterday, with lots of 40-50mph cruising. I'm using my two ebike batteries in parallel. The a123/headway and a recently built 24s 8ah neosonic lifepo4 pack. I was a mile from home and I was EMPTY. Took one battery in a food joint and charged for 20 minutes.
Today I did 9 miles with my fiance on the back. At about 6kw limit, it has plenty of power to keep us safe in traffic on non-highways. The problem is the KE suspension is too soft for 300lbs of riders, and the seat needs to be moved back a few inches. Brakes are pretty bad too. But it's soo much better to have adequate power carrying her on the back, compared to the 300lb sla scooter we were using. The KE is 170lbs with 77v 14ah of lifepo4.

I think I'm going to put 20s of Nissan Leaf battery on it. 60ah. That would give me about 30kw peak and 80 mile range. I have 2 modules so far, need another 8. I think I'm stressing some of the ebike batteries a bit too much at over 4kw.


So let me say that again. With the Leaf cells I'll have 30kw on a 220lb bike.

I also want to go to a belt drive. The chain is a bit noisy for my liking, though I am getting used to it. So far I've hit 53mph. I have not pushed it, really at all yet. Maybe this weekend now that I'm not running it all through a single 30a Anderson connector. (50amp now, which look like they should take a lot more).

 

[John in CR]

Chains can be quiet. A lower rpm motor (larger diameter drive sprocket) can make them near silent if mounted and aligned properly. That means perfect alignment with a sufficiently stiff swingarm, and the motor in the pivot (for zero added unsprung weight) or near the pivot (for minimal added unsprung). With all that mine didn't go to as quiet as common hubmotors until I added a sprung idler that pushed outward instead of the typical inward to feed the chain perfectly to the rear sprocket and damp vibrations of the slack side of the chain. I bet such an idler made with a rubber or plastic wheel (skateboard wheels with a channel cut to fit the chain) would knock out much of your chain noise.