Kelly Controller and speedometer and some configuration

[oskari.rauta]

I have a Kelly Controller KLS-7230S and I have a issue with speedometer; I have a cheap headlight with integrated speedo and I have connected it to pin 8/gray wire which should be a copy of hall signals. Value displayed is incorrect- when stopped, it reads 18 and even when power is set on without accelerating at all, it shows value between 5 and 8, when accelerating it usually goes lower than 18 - I read somewhere about pull up resistors attached to it, but I can't do a pull-up to there with provided specs, should I pull it up to 60v, 12v, 5v or maybe to totally different value? Because too high pull-up resistor most likely will brake it. I guess, 5V since hall sensors are working on 5v - but still.. Just my opinion, but shouldn't it instead be a pull-down resistor?

Anyway, most likely it has nothing to do with pull-down or pull-up resistor..

Meter itself does work fine. If I use a other kind of controller; such as original controller of this citycoco e-scooter, value is displayed correctly on speedo - or at least correctly on some level, can't say how accurate it is.. When I started tuning my scooter, it was a 1kw vehicle, then I have changed motor 4 times, and had numerous controllers, such as 1.5kw that looks almost identical to original, then different kinds of controllers, varying from 2-4kw - and speedo works with all those controllers.

I think documentation for Kelly is limited and should be updated; app says that it supports anti-theft device, and signal should be connected to foot switch; haven't tested, but I don't see why that wouldn't work - it is completely undocumented feature on PDF by Kelly, also speedo signal is pretty much un-documented, there is definetly something going on there, but a small chapter in guide, might save from a lot of time wasting while guessing what is the problem.

There also seems to be a sort of CAN signal at pin 33 and 34; I wonder what these are, technically if it is a CAN bus connection, speed could be reported there (or estimate, as controller does not know size of wheel) - but that very likely does not work with my meter, as connection comes with 2 wires; and my speedo accepts just 1 wire. Also, in fear of breaking something, I have not tried to connect either one to speedo - after all, controller is very expensive. And wouldn't want to break my meter also.

I have been browsing the application, there seems to be only 1 setting related to speed; but it works only on standard HAL setting, others will give a hall sensor error; and I have to assume, this doesn't even work like that at all, I think it is not related to "speed", but speed of wheel in RPM, and does not relate to pin 8..

Also, it could be documented better what pole counts do; I didn't find a proper pole count value for my qsmotor smd701 2065750 c45; I wonder what these values by the way are, I know 206 stands for wheel type.. But very similar motors (without identification of motor visible) on qsmotor's site said value would be 24. I know, that you could short phase lines and calculate pole pair count be rotating wheel manually; but I assume that once again, pole count is mostly used just for rpm reading; changing the value results in different rpm values.

Also, the program - at least for PC, is crap; it crashes often, and if resolution is for wide-screen, use of software on small displays/resolution - fails to show full content of window and scrolling is not supported; nevertheless, I was able to use the software to do my setup. But still, it is pretty much something that has been put up very quickly without a lot of effort.

So, how do I make my speedo to work with Kelly KLS-7230S?

 

[thebes]

If I had to guess, your display reads the speed based off the phase wires rather than the halls as that is much more common for moped/scooter displays. Sadly they dont specify on the ali listing :/ If youve already confirmed that the display uses halls, theres a couple things you could do, would first check that your controller is actually picking up the hall sensors in the first place, would also measure with a multimeter if youre getting any output on the line from the controller (although it seems you are getting at least something which is good), you could also try hooking the display directly up to the hall senors and seeing if that changes anything. Afaik you shouldnt need a pull up/down resistor.

Meter itself does work fine. If I use a other kind of controller; such as original controller of this citycoco e-scooter, value is displayed correctly on speedo - or at least correctly on some level, can't say how accurate it is.. When I started tuning my scooter, it was a 1kw vehicle, then I have changed motor 4 times, and had numerous controllers, such as 1.5kw that looks almost identical to original, then different kinds of controllers, varying from 2-4kw - and speedo works with all those controllers.

It is possible all of those controllers copied a phase instead of a hall signal.

There also seems to be a sort of CAN signal at pin 33 and 34;

Very much do agree that kellys documentation is somewhat lacking in many departments but, at least in my experience, they make up for it with somewhat decent support, have never actually used the canbus so I dont really know much about it but there wouldnt be much harm in shooting an email off to them inquiring about it.

Also, it could be documented better what pole counts do;

Pole counts relates more to the motor than the controller, motor poles are simply how many opposite pole magnets are in your motor.

I didn't find a proper pole count value for my qsmotor smd701 2065750 c45;

if you attach a picture of your motor we'd probably be able to identify it, if I had to guess its probably one of the smaller diameter qs205s or 273s.

Also, the program - at least for PC, is crap; it crashes often, and if resolution is for wide-screen, use of software on small displays/resolution - fails to show full content of window and scrolling is not supported; nevertheless, I was able to use the software to do my setup. But still, it is pretty much something that has been put up very quickly without a lot of effort.

This really depends on your hardware/windows version for some reason, had it work perfectly fine on one machine and instantly crash upon launch on another....

Anyways hope at least some of this is helpful!

 

[oskari.rauta]

No, I have no knowledge of my speedometer's source of speed, and I'd say you are very accurate here; I didn't know there was a second way, had guesses; but didn't have information about phase based speed. I have only verified that speedometer works, but it is likely that it works with another technology, because In Finland, places that sell this Kelly, they also sell a speedometer, which is a lot different (a panel of a kind, I bet you know..) - and all the scooters that I've seen using this controller - have that meter. They also sell a moped in Finland, which comes with this controller as stock - and it has also that speedometer.

I could had purchased that speedo. It's just that, then I would need a separate headlight, and in my opinion; it would ruin the look of my scooter - beauty is in eye of the beholder, and I haven't so far found a nice external headlight that I would want - so I'd rather at least would try to work with this speedo.. Especially, when I have modified this by my hand, it has symbols for signal lights, head light etc - that were not in use when I purchased it, I wired a set of wires to make them work. I also modified it so that bluetooth speaker is activated only if second position of ignition is used. And because of other modifications that I have made, I had to modify handlebar attachment of this speedo.. So I've given some love to it. Also I would need another way to start this thing, as panel does not come with ignition key..

I have also tried in past to hook this up directly to hall sensor wire in past, can't remember reading back then, but it was either the same, or something similar - in the end, result was that it didn't work any better that way. This is why phase based speed sensoring would be my guess.

Using can bus, propably won't help with this speedometer either, even if I could make it work. I bet this cheap meter isn't advanced enough to utilise can bus.

Software was un-usable with Windows 11; it crashed too soon. With Windows 10, you can use it, but if you are on "parameters" page, it will eventually crash - but you still can make changes there, as long as you are fast enough, so better not to change everything, instead some and then some again.
But I'd say, problem is not with Windows, even though Windows seems to be filled with bugs according to frequent of updates- Well, I've managed to use it anyway so that's good thing. Often the crashes come when you want to see the tip of option, that white box that explains some usage of option, and possible available choices, if I just browse those tips, it hangs super fast. And on Windows 11, it crashes always every time, from first tip to second. Length of tip seems to bring it closer to death.

Yes, this indeed was helpful. Didn't solve anything but this way I found about phase based speed sensoring. Is there a way that I could use it?

 

[oskari.rauta]

And here's photos of motor..





On the other side, there is brake disc blocking the view. Text on motor says SMD701 2605760 C45 and its tire size is 215/40-12. It was sold as a 4000w motor, but it could be 2kw, 3kw, or even 5kw or more, because I don't have that much trust to company selling it. They could be selling it with its peak performance (2kw or 3kw, peak: 4kw), or just something else. It is very difficult to ask anything from them (no answer, or answer. does not give any information) - last time I asked about pole count, they answered "oh, that pole thing" and nothing more

So, best of luck identifying it - anyway, motors that look same, often seem to be sold as 2kw, or in some cases, 3kw, and both come with 24 pole pairs, so that's just my guess. But anyway, pole pairs setting.. Seems to change RPM value on monitor page, so I would guess that it's just for accurate RPM reading; nothing that affects speedo. But correct RPM value on the other hand, helps other settings to work properly, so it is useful even though it doesn't have anything to do with speedo propably.

 

[oskari.rauta]

So, did anyone identify this motor? Or know it's pole pair count?

I managed to brick my controller; I contacted Kelly upon it and they offered that if I ship it to back and forth, they'll fix it for me; or at least re-install the firmware. I also received them a program that can write complete firmware - unfortunately it didn't connect to controller, so no go there.

Okay, I purchased a new controller instead; it's model QSKLS7230SF, where I assume that QS in front has something to do with QS Motors, since I purchased it from SiaEcoSys which is a sister company of qs motors. Not sure if this is an authentic Kelly product, works though. F in end of model means anti-theft, wiring has been fixed to have more or less standard connectors for anti-theft system. SiaEcoSys had a clearance sale and was selling them for something I call reasonable price (~153usd) with very fast shipping (it arrived in 5 days) with DHL flight cargo.

Just installed it and I can confirm that it works. Something though is different; While accelerating, there's a buzzing sound coming from motor. When RPM goes high, it though disappears, it appears on low RPM. Maybe changing PID values helps, but I know nothing about them or what they do in general; or what would be good values there, so I avoided touching them.

I have a new problem though. If I accelerate to high speed - can then press brake (my brake switches enable 25% regen), I get over voltage error. My system is pretty standard 60V system (with 2 batteries) found on CityCoco type scooters, I have set low voltage to 48v (which seems quite low in my opinion, but this was advised.. On somewhere.. For 60V), and first I set high voltage to 72V. Kelly's guide says that default is 80V - propably.. If I set it to 80V, no over voltage error occurs, but isn't that quite high for 60V? I assume charging 60V battery with 80V will shorten battery's lifespan pretty soon, so I was wondering if there's another setting that would reduce charging with regen voltage, whilst still using 25%, or what ever, regen power as it's pretty nice value. Not sure if my previous unit had this issue.

All other tips to fine-tune this, are ofcourse also more than welcome Thank you in advance

Oh, that speedometer thing - it definetly is using phase instead of HAL, SiaEcoSys instructed me to just take it from any of the phases, I asked from a friend of mine, who is electrician, confirmed this, but asked me to put a resistor between, preferably a 10K resistor, so I did. It kind of a works, but it rises very quickly on low RPM to quite high speed on meter and then ends in 50km/h, I haven't tested.. But I am quite sure that on low RPM, I am not driving on 38km/h, also max speed is propably more than 50km/h, though not that much, but let's say.. 60-65km/h maybe? Any fine-tuning tips over this, recommended resistor values, or should I just take it of there; it isn't, and doesn't need to be precise, but currently it's too far from accuracy in my opinion.

Also fine-tuning current for battery and motor would be welcome, I like to have power; but it's not ideal to break it. Currently bat and motor are set to 80. Also, there's setting for nominal power of motor, but I am not sure what value to put there.

Some testing results: I am drawing too much power, voltage drops real low and whole system momentary stalls (using regen brings it up pretty quickly). Better to reduce motor current, motor nominal power and battery current.. Though it accelerated like a maniac.

 

[display4kelly]

I have a Kelly Controller KLS-7230S and I have a issue with speedometer; I have a cheap headlight with integrated speedo and I have connected it to pin 8/gray wire which should be a copy of hall signals. Value displayed is incorrect- when stopped, it reads 18 and even when power is set on without accelerating at all, it shows value between 5 and 8, when accelerating it usually goes lower than 18 - I read somewhere about pull up resistors attached to it, but I can't do a pull-up to there with provided specs, should I pull it up to 60v, 12v, 5v or maybe to totally different value? Because too high pull-up resistor most likely will brake it. I guess, 5V since hall sensors are working on 5v - but still.. Just my opinion, but shouldn't it instead be a pull-down resistor?

Anyway, most likely it has nothing to do with pull-down or pull-up resistor..

Meter itself does work fine. If I use a other kind of controller; such as original controller of this citycoco e-scooter, value is displayed correctly on speedo - or at least correctly on some level, can't say how accurate it is.. When I started tuning my scooter, it was a 1kw vehicle, then I have changed motor 4 times, and had numerous controllers, such as 1.5kw that looks almost identical to original, then different kinds of controllers, varying from 2-4kw - and speedo works with all those controllers.

I think documentation for Kelly is limited and should be updated; app says that it supports anti-theft device, and signal should be connected to foot switch; haven't tested, but I don't see why that wouldn't work - it is completely undocumented feature on PDF by Kelly, also speedo signal is pretty much un-documented, there is definetly something going on there, but a small chapter in guide, might save from a lot of time wasting while guessing what is the problem.

There also seems to be a sort of CAN signal at pin 33 and 34; I wonder what these are, technically if it is a CAN bus connection, speed could be reported there (or estimate, as controller does not know size of wheel) - but that very likely does not work with my meter, as connection comes with 2 wires; and my speedo accepts just 1 wire. Also, in fear of breaking something, I have not tried to connect either one to speedo - after all, controller is very expensive. And wouldn't want to break my meter also.

I have been browsing the application, there seems to be only 1 setting related to speed; but it works only on standard HAL setting, others will give a hall sensor error; and I have to assume, this doesn't even work like that at all, I think it is not related to "speed", but speed of wheel in RPM, and does not relate to pin 8..

Also, it could be documented better what pole counts do; I didn't find a proper pole count value for my qsmotor smd701 2065750 c45; I wonder what these values by the way are, I know 206 stands for wheel type.. But very similar motors (without identification of motor visible) on qsmotor's site said value would be 24. I know, that you could short phase lines and calculate pole pair count be rotating wheel manually; but I assume that once again, pole count is mostly used just for rpm reading; changing the value results in different rpm values.

Also, the program - at least for PC, is crap; it crashes often, and if resolution is for wide-screen, use of software on small displays/resolution - fails to show full content of window and scrolling is not supported; nevertheless, I was able to use the software to do my setup. But still, it is pretty much something that has been put up very quickly without a lot of effort.

So, how do I make my speedo to work with Kelly KLS-7230S?

A lot of text.

Shortly: you can not use cheap BLDC speedometer with Kelly controllers. Forget it!
You can use CT-22 speedometer, it works with Hall signal that Kelly have. Or wait when I will finish my project - smart display with programming parameters, auto unbricking Kelly controllers, and remain distance prediction, showing power, controller/motor temperature, etc.
Your controller is great, your motor is great. But your battery is so bad. So thats why you have this problem with regen:

I have a new problem though. If I accelerate to high speed - can then press brake (my brake switches enable 25% regen), I get over voltage error. My system is pretty standard 60V system (with 2 batteries) found on CityCoco type scooters, I have set low voltage to 48v (which seems quite low in my opinion, but this was advised.. On somewhere.. For 60V), and first I set high voltage to 72V.

With good battery(about 2kw or more) you will not have this problem. With current battery you will not get even 50% of full power that can provide your Controller and Motor.

This motor have 48 magnets. You can put this number to your Kelly Controller settings.

KLS7230S can handle 94V on stock firmware.

 

[oskari.rauta]

Okay, I though purchased a fardriver controller for a change. Not that it would be any better in my case.. That drains as well, and configuring it.. Well I can do it with my iPhone, so it's easier; but some options are difficult to understand, for example; setting up regen is a real pain in the *ss.. I have it working just fine, when I hit the brakes.. But I want to utilise my P(ark) button as well, and to get that to work with fardriver, should be possible but just takes ages to find perfect settings. I'll propably just link it to same line as brake switches, maybe that's easier and a simple solution.

Thanks for the magnet count; 24 pairs then was correct. How did you find out about details of my motor? Is there somewhere more details on it, such as real values for designed power - as 4kw that they sold it as, is propably something they just sell it with, without manufacturer never saying it's a 4kw (and no, I did not buy it from China, sellers in Finland propably will sell even their own mothers if the price is right..)

One of the reasons to go for fardriver, was that I thought that it would work better with my current meter; but I am propably wrong again..

 

[display4kelly]

Okay, I though purchased a fardriver controller for a change.

You have disappointed me. You had a good start... Had two Kellys, QS Motor 12x7.5 3000W or 4000W. Now you're switching from one of the best controllers in the world to a Chinese knockoff. AAAAAAAAAAaaaaa

Well I can do it with my iPhone, so it's easier; but some options are difficult to understand, for example; setting up regen is a real pain in the *ss..

Everething in FD is about settings is pain in the *ss.. Because this controller was created by a Chinese gypsy.

Kelly was created by former Motorola perfectionist engineers and geniuses. Technically, it's like Apple. But not all Kelly controller models. Because these engineers left the company at some point. But what they did 10 years ago has still not been beaten by others.

I have it working just fine, when I hit the brakes..

Discrete regen is crap. Kelly have analog(dosed) good regen. Is it so hard to glue the hall sensors and drill the brake handle and put a magnet there. Solder three wires and you're done, just adjust it. Check Attachments.

But I want to utilise my P(ark) button as well

With Kelly you can do this with 3 pos switch that have most throttle handles. It's called FNR mode. Forward/Neutral/Reverse.

Thanks for the magnet count; 24 pairs then was correct.

24 pairs correct, but in Kelly you must setup 48, because this Kelly parameter receive number of magnets(poles) there, not pairs! I told you correct value from beginning.

How did you find out about details of my motor?

I have two same models(40H) and one 45H. I'm not sure your is 40H(3000W) or 45H(4000W). More portably 40H. In general in your case is not big difference. 40H and 45H this motors are good. Your battery is bad, and can not reveal the potential of this motor with your battery. 40H motor like 90V. Kelly can handle 94V on stock firmware.

Is there somewhere more details on it, such as real values for designed power - as 4kw that they sold it as, is propably something they just sell it with, without manufacturer never saying it's a 4kw (and no, I did not buy it from China, sellers in Finland propably will sell even their own mothers if the price is right..)

))) no, but they will sell even their own mothers if you buy many pieces. 4kw(45H) you can not buy 1pcs. Only 20pcs or more.

One of the reasons to go for fardriver, was that I thought that it would work better with my current meter; but I am propably wrong again..

Yeap! I agree! You are wrong. Your current meter? What does the controller have to do with it?

 

[oskari.rauta]

Yes, well even on the lowest setting; Kelly drained my battery on coast to level where bms cut the power off; So I had to do something, batteries are real expensive, even this crappy set costs about 1200$...... Before I started modifying this scooter, whole scooter did cost that even though it was brand new (original battery is about 900$ and second is around 300$)

But I didn't throw my Kelly away or sell it something like that... Keeping it for a rainy day and new ideas..
Currently; Kelly's just too good for my scooter. I'd propably could do best results with good "stock" controller from China, but I feel difficult to settle with a "modified citycoco controller" - so much money already put to motor and extra battery and all, that I feel that I just have to have something better.. And whilst fd might be crap when considered to Kelly, I think it's a leap forward from those general citycoco controllers found on aliexpress..

I had regen working with Kelly as I wanted it to work, slight regen from brake handles, like assisting to brakes but not too much, as one can use brakes just to slow down; if I remember correctly, it was set to 2% or 3% of regen. Parking button I used when I wanted to stop, that was propably somewhere on 20-25%.. Might not sound ideal for everyone, but I was happy with that setup, so a personal favourite setting - what could be better when user of scooter already has it perfect to himself.. My brake switches are just switches, without potentiometers or hall sensors sensing how much brake is used. I am perfectly fine with that.

I am also confident that it's 40H; and while technology is great and there are parts suppressing it; I'll just have to get best of what I currently have- With one controller I got speed of 65km/h and I think that's very close to limit that I want to go, as the thing started to feel very difficult to control and keep in hands; unsafe - so it's not like I would be really down if it won't go 120km/h - for the effect that I got on that 65km/h, I am pretty confident that I wouldn't ever dare to go 80km/h since I don't want to die
But surely it has to go ~50km/h to move me to places Also it should have torque, it already had torque with one of those chinese general controllers, so with more pricier controller - it cannot mean that I must push it to get past up hill..

Anyway, best controller that I had, was one of these Chinese, that was one that I drove that 65km/h and it seemed that it wasn't yet even the top speed, same box also had pretty nice torque, not anything crazy, but uphill wasn't a problem.. So, whether it was Kelly or FD; both should be superior to those general citycoco controllers that aren't even branded. And I should get atleast what I got from those controllers, both on Kelly or FD; without killing the battery, as general controller was able. Also, killing the battery is not an option; range has already shortened significantly because it's more powerful, but range goes to ridiculously short with either Kelly or FD - I am talking about 4-5 kilometres, when previously it was like 40-50km, and with original controller, about 70-80km; so currently with Kelly or FD, it's about 3% of what it was on a 1500w citycoco controller, even though I set used power to so low that it's a joke...

There's also different 4kw motor generally sold in Finland too; also qsmotor. But same motor on sale on aliexpress states it's also 3000w - so all frauds in Finland..

Sorry, with current meter; I did not mean "current meter", I meant my current meter, as speedo meter that I currently have. I know, it's crap, but it just happens to be model that I think fits in style of my scooter; also, if I'd get one of those fancy speedos... I'd had to replace front light, horn/beeper, electric key lock and the speedo ofcourse; And current setup just is pretty in my eyes.. I though have already modified it; display had symbols that were not in use, so I soldered some extra wiring to utilise those symbols, so if I find a module that works and is correct size; it wouldn't be impossible to replace the technology inside current speedo's/lamp's casing;

Also that it would be better with my current speedometer.. Is because it had 2 different kind of speedometer lines: signal and analog, and for signal, settings had 3 different settings for output, so 4 different combinations. Well, none of those combinations worked out. So yes, I was wrong. But surely controller has something do with how it forwards the speedometer's signal

Nice photos, also nice to meet with a fellow tinkerer.... These days it's way too much of "I bought it with dad's money and paid the dealer to tune it"... My scooter doesn't have much of original left.. Body had been modified, saddle is original, standing leg is original, floor cover and steering rod is original.. But rest is not. I made a box beneath to hold secondary battery, body/frame is modified so there's a lot of space more for controller (or if you take all that stuff out, you can hold a six pack there..), speedo/light/keylock is replaced and modified by hand, first key position power's on, second enables bluetooth speaker(yes, it's crap and I never use it, I am too old for that..) and extra symbols are enabled as well, throttle and all controls are replaced, signal lights are replaced, fender's are replaced, rear lights are replaced, pedals for passenger has been replaced, front wheel is replaced, both front and rear suspension is replaced, brakes, both front and rear are upgraded, had to do some frame modification there too, motor is upgraded, had to modify frame again to fit that as well, oh, and ofcourse; I added a charging port, and have replaced controller, alarm system and all electrics, including wiring.