Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

E-HP said:
Since the cooling is integrated into the motor’s design, there’s no need to speculate, since the effectiveness of the design should be reflected in the motor specs, and be used as a selling point. What is the motor rated at, weight, and dimensions, etc.?
Click to expand...

Crystalyte will not have rated the motor using Statorade.....and we all know hubsinks are not effective without statorade.

1713616071828.png

Even the company that creates and sells the hubsinks emphasizes the importance of statorade/ferrofluid.
 
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Ended up going with a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" rear tire.

Everything is on the way now except for the spokes...those are going to take a few minutes to figure out :).

Can anyone tell me the spoke hole circle diameter on the Leaf 1,500w motor? Only dimension I am lacking to be able to calculate my spoke length. Thanks
 
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Bullfrog said:
Ended up going with a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" rear tire.

Everything is on the way now except for the spokes...those are going to take a few minutes to figure out :).

Can anyone tell me the spoke hole circle diameter on the Leaf 1,500w motor? Only dimension I am lacking to be able to calculate my spoke length. Thanks
Click to expand...
I measured, then cross checked afterwards. Same with the ERD of my rim; measured first, then compared to the specs, since an error is expensive. I recommend measuring.

endless-sphere.com

Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

If it's pretty different, you may need to play wiht the Beta coefficient / value and offset in the CA settings to match yours, which might not take long if you use a "half / double" approach. (halve the value and see if you're closer or farther by a lot; if it's the wrong direction then double...
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com
 
ebike4healthandfitness said:
Crystalyte will not have rated the motor using Statorade.....and we all know hubsinks are not effective without statorade.

View attachment 351424

Even the company that creates and sells the hubsinks emphasizes the importance of statorade/ferrofluid.
Click to expand...
So it’s a cosmetic design element. Sort of like when they designed wedge shaped car bodies because consumers thought that looked aerodynamic; and why they do so much aerodynamic testing in racing, since looks counts for squat.
 
E-HP said:
So it’s a cosmetic design element.
Click to expand...
No, It's an integrated heatsink as per the description of the item by the seller of the hub:

www.ebay.com

HPC Crystalyte High PerformanceE-Bike Hub Motor 9kw Max Scooter Hubsink 60+ Mph | eBay

<p>This is an all new design, double the copper windings and integrated heatsink to sustain power for longer.</p><br /><p>This is the perfect motor for a high power ebikes since it is both more efficient and higher quality than other motors on the market.</p><br /><p>We run these at 9kw @ 72v...
www.ebay.com

With that noted I do not know if this is factory standard on all the newest versions of this hub or if this is special order item. If it is a special order item I would hope it would also have the added statorade features found on ebikes.ca special order version of the Crystalyte:

Crystalyte H+ Motors, Statorade for All

Grin Technologies
ebikes.ca ebikes.ca

P.S. Interesting fact: V1 of the Grin all axle hub motor is listed by Grin as only having "so-so" compatibility with Statorade. This because according to Grin statorade could leak out through the bearings. However, starting with the V2 version of the all axle hub Grin upgraded statorade compatibility to excellent and listed an upgrade in both bearing seals and side plate seal.

All-Axle Hub Motor - Grin Products - Product Info

The All Axle motor takes the simplicity and robustness of the direct drive hub motor, and optimizes it for the modern bike platform. This hub is fully compatible with all quick release and thru-axle bike forks, it is over 30% lighter than standard generic hubs of similar power (4kg vs 6kg), and...
ebikes.ca ebikes.ca
 
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Here is a picture of the integrated heatsink hubshell from the Crystalyte motor I posted earlier in this thread. It is one piece of solid steel.

(Glad, being a one piece design, there is no TIM involved)
 

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Bullfrog said:
QUESTION: What 24" rim would you recommend if I plan to run the 2.6" Schwalbe Pick-Up tire...I am hard on wheels/tires and have weighed as much as 250 lbs so I'd rather cry once when I buy the new rim than cry when I break a cheap one and then cry again when I have to buy a new rim to replace it.
Click to expand...
I would run a 19x1.40 Motorcycle rim and just about any 2.75-19" MC trials tire. The shinko SR241 and the SR244 in that size would be ideal with your body weight.
 
Rix said:
I would run a 19x1.40 Motorcycle rim and just about any 2.75-19" MC trials tire. The shinko SR241 and the SR244 in that size would be ideal with your body weight.
Click to expand...
Just some observations from changing tires recently. After several thousand miles on my 24x2.8 Specialized knobbies, that I feel are the perfect tire for my setup and riding, I switched to 24x2.5 Hookworms. The old setup had two extra tubes for flat protection and Flatout in the tube, so a fairly heavy combination. Just the main tube for the Hookworms, so measurably lighter. The change was eye opening. With the old setup, I had the throttle detuned enough to prevent inadvertent wheelies, but the acceleration was still great. The Hookworms are scary (but fun) right now with the same settings. Inadvertent wheelies when below 18mph or so, and too sensitive when navigating through foot traffic, so I have to be extra careful. I flipped over leaving my driveway on Saturday. Looked around and nobody saw it, but still felt embarrassed. The lighter wheel made a huge difference.
The Leaf is like the Chevy small block of ebike motors. It can provide a lot of fun performance with minor cooling modifications. But from my recent observations, wheel weight plays a big factor in how it performs. That said, I was perfectly happy running the heavier setup, until now. I'll probably switch to only a single tube without tire sealant when I put the knobbies back on and cross my fingers on flats.
 
Lol.. this was one of my bigger issues with the leaf.. i only ran 4kw because i couldn't keep the front wheel on the ground on 6kw.

Next time i build a bike that powerful, i'll come back with a much longer wheelbase.. :cool:
 
E-HP said:
Just some observations from changing tires recently. After several thousand miles on my 24x2.8 Specialized knobbies, that I feel are the perfect tire for my setup and riding, I switched to 24x2.5 Hookworms. The old setup had two extra tubes for flat protection and Flatout in the tube, so a fairly heavy combination. Just the main tube for the Hookworms, so measurably lighter. The change was eye opening. With the old setup, I had the throttle detuned enough to prevent inadvertent wheelies, but the acceleration was still great. The Hookworms are scary (but fun) right now with the same settings. Inadvertent wheelies when below 18mph or so, and too sensitive when navigating through foot traffic, so I have to be extra careful. I flipped over leaving my driveway on Saturday. Looked around and nobody saw it, but still felt embarrassed. The lighter wheel made a huge difference.
The Leaf is like the Chevy small block of ebike motors. It can provide a lot of fun performance with minor cooling modifications. But from my recent observations, wheel weight plays a big factor in how it performs. That said, I was perfectly happy running the heavier setup, until now. I'll probably switch to only a single tube without tire sealant when I put the knobbies back on and cross my fingers on flats.
Click to expand...

Rotational inertia only counts for 1:2 weight gain as far as acceleration goes. So if you add two pounds of weight at the rim/tube/tire it is like adding 4 pounds of extra weight to the bike.

While the effect of adding a few extra pounds will indeed slow down acceleration from a standstill it is only a small change in total (rider + bike) weight.

At low speed, the greater force to overcome is rolling resistance.

Since having dual inner tubes means more rubber rubbing against each other as well as more rubber resisting deforming during tire rotation that is going to increase rolling resistance. This especially if they were thick inner tubes. Thick inner tubes are known to cause higher rolling resistance than thin inner tubes. Then there is the issue of switching from knobby tires to ones that are much smoother. That again is another improvement in rolling resistance. Lastly, tire sealant adds rolling resistance.....with the increase depending on how much sealant you added.

(In a nutshell, change in rolling resistance >> change in rotational inertia + small weight increase)

P.S. If anyone wants to do an experiment to see the lack of effect from increasing rotational inertia it is simple. Keep tires and tubes the same but change rim weight by having one moped rim of identical inner width be made of aluminium while the other moped rim with same inner width is made of steel + has wheel weights attached to the exterior. Rolling resistance will be the same in both with only the total weight and rotational inertia being different. If you wanted to purely isolate rotational inertia you do this by adding the difference in weight of the two bikes to the frame of the bike using the aluminum moped rims.
 
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I agree that rolling resistance plays a big role, but have to think about it a bit more when it comes to how it plays into different situations. I agree that from a stand still, rolling resistance may be a bigger factor in acceleration from a stand still, and due to the higher pressures I'm running, accounts for flipping over in the driveway or uncontrolled wheelies from a stop. But, trying to reconcile the effect when accelerating when already at speed. Since rolling resistance is constant and not changing with speed, then for example, when riding at a steady 20mph, the torque and power being applied is already making up for the rolling resistance. When hitting the throttle at that speed, there is no incremental rolling resistance to overcome, so the torque/power is used to overcome inertia and wind resistance. True, the bigger tires may exhibit more wind resistance, but my thought is between the two scenarios, it's the inertia from the wheels that is different, and accounts for improved roll on acceleration. I probably need to noodle on this some more, but thanks for pointing out what should have been obvious.
Definitely decreased rolling resistance is an advantage and easy to demonstrate. I apply ~280W of assistance when using PAS. At that speed, with my knobbies, I get around 18mph cruising speeds. With the slicks, I'm riding at ~20mph with the same iight pedaling effort. I haven't tested to see that I get a 10% range increase, but mathematically should be possible.
 
A shorter tire makes a smaller wheel outer diameter, which makes the bike push harder for the same torque. Even if it's only a few percent, you can probably feel that.
 
Chalo said:
A shorter tire makes a smaller wheel outer diameter, which makes the bike push harder for the same torque. Even if it's only a few percent, you can probably feel that.
Click to expand...
Yup, I haven't performed an accurate measurement yet, but it seems like maybe 3/8" or so less in total diameter, judging by the clearance between the tire and the controller mounted under my rack.
When I originally used the simulator to compare going from 26" to 24" (25" diameter with the plus size tires), I only saw a small increase in torque and acceleration at 20mph. 1.3NM difference, so didn't think I'd feel that. (drag both sliders to 20.1mph)

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...
ebikes.ca ebikes.ca
I should have done a more accurate/measured diameter of the 26x2.4 tires I was running at the time though.
 
IMO the 135mm version of the leaf bike 35mm linked below is the ultimate leaf bike motor pre-built wheel

www.leafbike.com

1.85 - 19 inch 60V 2000W rear electric motorcycle motor wheel

Convert your original motorcycle to be electric with leaf 19 inch 60V 2000W rear electric motorcycle motor wheel.
www.leafbike.com www.leafbike.com

The leaf bike wheel I am linking above has a 35mm stator, no dishing offset, single speed freewheel and functional disc brake on 135nm rear spacing.

The 1.85" wide aluminum moped rim even has 6mm spoke nipple holes. You can read why that is a good thing in the following article (scroll down to the part of the article called "Rims and Nipples"):


www.electricbike.com

Moped Rims and Tires for Hot Rod Hubmotors

If you want to rock a ton of amps in a hot-rod hubmotor street monster for the kind of sweet hard acceleration that can embarrass an expensive sports car, the latest trend is to mount the hubbie in…
www.electricbike.com

P.S. At one time I remember Leaf bike also carrying 16" x 1.85" aluminum moped rims (which would fit 20" bicycle tires as well as 16" moped tires) but I can't find them at the moment. Maybe they are out of stock?
 
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No doubt the motor is capable of 2kw continuous when laced to a wheel smaller than 26". I remember it going a very long distance at average 2000W continuous before it got too hot and needed a break. It would likely do 2000w continuous in a 24" or 22".

No need for a heavy moped rim version to achieve that power. Just unnecessary rotational inertia that will slow your acceleration. Bike rims get stronger the smaller they get. I had no problem slamming potholes on the stock ~20mm inner 26" bike rim with a full suspension bike going 45-60mph. I imagine a smaller bike wheel from them should be just as burly.
 
neptronix said:
No need for a heavy moped rim version to achieve that power. Just unnecessary rotational inertia that will slow your acceleration.
Click to expand...
I couldn't find the weight on the 16" but the 19" isn't that heavy for a rim with 47mm inner width:

www.leafbike.com

19 inch motorcycle motor rim

Leaf 19 inch motorcycle motor rim.
www.leafbike.com www.leafbike.com

A major benefit of the moped rim is the angled spoke holes allow 1 cross lacing without the spoke entering the rim at a steep angle which stresses the spoke thread end of the spoke.

1714027327377.png
 
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If anyone wanted to do a controlled rotational inertia comparison if would be as easy as comparing the steel moped rim version to the aluminum moped rim version as they have the same inner width, shape and diameter. You could even increase the rotational inertia difference by adding wheel weights to the steel moped rim. Then take total weight difference between the aluminum moped wheel and steel moped wheel and add that to the frame of the aluminum rim bike. Rotational inertia would now be isolated.
 
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Rix said:
I would run a 19x1.40 Motorcycle rim and just about any 2.75-19" MC trials tire. The shinko SR241 and the SR244 in that size would be ideal with your body weight.
Click to expand...
Thanks...a 19" motorcycle tire is about the same diameter as a 24" bicycle tire. The Shinko SR241x2.75 has an OD=639mm and the 24x2.6" Schwalbe Pick-Up has an OD=637mm. I would probably go with a 17" motorcycle tire if I go to a motorcycle tire but just because the available selection of tires is greater.

For now, I am going to stick with a 24" bicycle rim. The Shinko tires you mentioned should hold up better at higher speeds than bicycle tires so a lot depends on whether you need that additional speed or not. I am going to run a Schwalbe Pick-Up 24x2.6" once I get my motor laced in a 24" rim but initially I'll be running a 26x2.5" Maxxis Hookworm in the 26" wide rim that came from Leaf. My plan is to stay below 35 mph to avoid over heating until I get my Statorade and Hub Sinks installed along with the 24" rim.
 
Chalo said:
A shorter tire makes a smaller wheel outer diameter, which makes the bike push harder for the same torque. Even if it's only a few percent, you can probably feel that.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

IMO the smaller diameter tire is providing the increased acceleration more than the weight loss (lighter tire) but both are contributing.

I have a 24", 26", 27.5", and a 29" rims with a MAC hub laced to them so I can just swap the motor by unbolting the nine small screws that hold the motor in the hub/shell. The 29" rim rides nicely over bumps but it gears the MAC too high and contributes to over heating. The 27.5" rim I like because there are several good 2.8" tires available but it is still a little tall for the overall gearing. I usually run the 24" or the 26" because they actually help with over heating. 26" bicycle tires are probably the most common diameter if you consider all bikes worldwide.
 
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chuyskywalker said:
www.leafbike.com

1.85 - 16 inch 60V 2000W rear electric motorcycle motor wheel

Convert your original motorcycle to be electric with leaf 16 inch 60V 2000W rear electric motorcycle motor wheel.
www.leafbike.com www.leafbike.com

Seems like
Click to expand...
16" tires were once the "go to" diameter for street motorcycles...now 17" is the most popular for street bikes. 18 AND 21 are the most popular for off road/dual sports, and 19" are the preferred diameter for Flat Track racing as well as some custom builds just to get the look you want and some dirt bikes are using 19" rear tires...mainly MX race bikes.
 
E-HP said:
Yup, I haven't performed an accurate measurement yet, but it seems like maybe 3/8" or so less in total diameter, judging by the clearance between the tire and the controller mounted under my rack.
When I originally used the simulator to compare going from 26" to 24" (25" diameter with the plus size tires), I only saw a small increase in torque and acceleration at 20mph. 1.3NM difference, so didn't think I'd feel that. (drag both sliders to 20.1mph)

Motor Simulator - Tools

Our ebike motor simulator allows you to easily simulate the different performance characteristics of different ebike setups - with a wide selection of hub motors modeled, and the ability to add custom batteries and controllers and set a wide variety of vehicle parameters you'll be able to see...
ebikes.ca ebikes.ca
I should have done a more accurate/measured diameter of the 26x2.4 tires I was running at the time though.
Click to expand...

What voltage is your battery and what battery amperage and phase amperage is the max your controller is set to allow?

I am going to have to play with controllers once I get everything working properly.

Thanks
 
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Bullfrog said:
What voltage is your battery and what battery amperage and phase amperage is the max your controller is set to allow?

I am going to have to play with controllers once I get everything working properly.

Thanks
Click to expand...
20S. I’m using an $80 no name dumb 80A clone (there are a bunch, rebranded). Not all listings show phase currrent, but one lists 80A, 240A phase. Mine came maxed at 60A so I shunt modded to 91A. It’s not as powerful launching as my old 70A, 200A phase controller, but that one peaked at 121A. This one feels stronger in the midrange though. Not programmable, like the real Sabvoton, so it can’t really be ridden without something like the Cycle Analyst to adjust the throttle signal. I bought 2 so I can swap it out if it gets fried.

endless-sphere.com

Searching for a spare/upgrade controller

When it works can you draw a diagram for hooking up the C.A. plug.
endless-sphere.com endless-sphere.com

My econo-e-bike

If you look at APL’s build thread, he uses one but modded to something Ike 119A,
 
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