Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
- Start date
The Toecutter
100 kW
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- Feb 8, 2015
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neptronix said:
You're using the freewheel version of this motor. Is it possible that the cassette version I am using has a shorter sprocket-side axle than the freewheel version?
I actually have slightly less clearance than needed to install it with a Grin torquearm. The nut can never be secured properly with the torquearm in place because I have to do without a washer for it to thread on tightly.
The brake rotor side of the axle has plenty of spare room even with a thick torque plate installed.
Are you aware of any plug and play torquearms sturdy enough for 4+ kW for the cassette/freewheel side, or am I going to have to make one?
Currently at 1500W peak, about to upgrade to 3 kW peak, and will eventually go to 7+ kW peak.
markz
100 TW
I almost purchased the Grintech TA's but I couldnt find anything else to package along with it for shipping costs, though shipping is not that expensive to begin with. I might be in Vancouver in the Summer so I can swing by and stock up.
The way my Leaf 1500W 35H is setup now, is the freewheel version, got a 6spd fw on there with enough axle length to fit ta, I use a hose clamp inches out, and a hose clamp as close to the axle as possible. Its 135mm rear dropout 700C Trek, thats to nice for me to have converted, plus it has sentimental value.
I will make it a point to snap a few pictures.
The way my Leaf 1500W 35H is setup now, is the freewheel version, got a 6spd fw on there with enough axle length to fit ta, I use a hose clamp inches out, and a hose clamp as close to the axle as possible. Its 135mm rear dropout 700C Trek, thats to nice for me to have converted, plus it has sentimental value.
I will make it a point to snap a few pictures.
Chalo said:Bullfrog said:...the older steel framed fat tire frames that Mongoose offered all have 190mm OLD and with a 9mm axle, it was easy to bend.
135mm Mongoose axles are easy to bend, too. That's one of the many reasons why they're bicycle-shaped objects (BSOs) and not bicycles.
BSO...good one :lol: . The frames are holding nicely...but that is about the only thing I haven't changed since they rolled out of Walmart :wink: .
markz
100 TW
For now
:wink:
Chalo
100 TW
The Toecutter said:
It isn't watts that dictate how beefy a torque arm you need; it's newton-meters. The more RPM you use to make that 4kW, the less torque arm you need.
In a lot of those permutations, two Grin torque arms would do just fine.
My Leaf motor makes 90+ Nm, and seems stable with a single .2" thick torque arm made from top shelf Boeing surplus aluminum and fitted as close as possible to the axle flats.
markz
100 TW
How does one gets his hands on top shelf Boeing surplus aluminum.
Its all in who ya know isnt it.
If you have an angle grinder, you can use a thin abrasive disc to cut plate steel. You can also draw a design and have Big Blue Saw water-jet it, in steel or even stainless steel.
Chalo
100 TW
markz said:
I got it when I lived near Boeing Surplus, and when that place was open to the public. Point is, it's strong but it's aluminum, and you could make an equal or better torque arm from say chromoly steel.
If you want to use aluminum for the job, I say get a scrap of 7075-T6 and go to town.
vermamanu8 said:
That is pretty high for a 12 FET...might consider going with an 18 FET if you are actually going to use that much amperage.
The 12 FET 3077 Infineon is usually shipped programmed to 40A battery and 112A phase. I have run them as high as 60A battery and 140A phase but some of the FETs did not survive.
A 12FET 3077 can totally handle 75 batt amps peak, 40-60 sustained.
You'll want to beef up the battery leads and power traces though.
I could have got away with it and skipped the 18FET if i had better cooling.
Not a bad choice for 3000w of power. I was running 6kW.
You'll want to beef up the battery leads and power traces though.
I could have got away with it and skipped the 18FET if i had better cooling.
Not a bad choice for 3000w of power. I was running 6kW.
Just so you know why he's vanished, that guy was a copypasta spammer, who actually stole your own words:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66489&p=1005938&hilit=3077#p1005938
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66489&p=1005938&hilit=3077#p1005938
neptronix said:
vermamanu8 said:
raggertje
10 mW
I want to monitor the temperature of my Leafmotor with this simple digital display:
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32968724092.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.37f84c4dX7MwLT
At Leaff they told me I probably have a NTC-10K temperature sensor, If not a KTY84-130.
Can someone tell me which wires I have to connect to the black wires of the sensor? I have a Kelly KLS7218S controller so maybe I can power it up via the controller?
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/32968724092.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.37f84c4dX7MwLT
At Leaff they told me I probably have a NTC-10K temperature sensor, If not a KTY84-130.
Can someone tell me which wires I have to connect to the black wires of the sensor? I have a Kelly KLS7218S controller so maybe I can power it up via the controller?
999zip999
100 TW
I were on an edge 1500 watt 35 mm aluminum stator and run 80v @ 40 amps with fins no problem. Oh I also cut three holes in the side plate on each side to let the heat out. No worries I've other side plates from Milton motors if this doesn't work. I was trying to keep the weight down as a message 3,000 weighs a lot.
The Toecutter
100 kW
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- Feb 8, 2015
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- 1,315
I'm about to upgrade to a 1000W 3T wind freewheel variant of this motor. Leafbike is advertising that there has been some changes vs. last year:
https://leafbike.com/products/e-bik...1000w-rear-electric-bike-motor-wheel-892.html
Does anyone here know if the new version has 12 gauge phase wires? How about thinner laminations vs the older version? I will be asking the company as well and will post back here if I hear anything.
I will be getting the 26" version instead of the 20" version so it will swap into my current KMX DIY velomobile setup without issue, to allow more performance without having to upgrade to a higher voltage battery pack, since I haven't had the time to finish spot welding my new 72V battery together with my job working me 60 hours a week combined with taking care of my mother at night. My current 46.8V pack should be good for close to 60 mph with a 3T wind version of this motor in a 26" wheel. The Phaserunner has served me well thus far and has only gotten warm to the touch.
But other than a quick motor swap, I can't do much work on the custom KMX project when I need it to be available to use for work the next day. I need a backup trike. I will be eventually obtaining a commercial velomobile to swap my current 4T wind 1500W 26" cassette motor into after I put the new 3T motor in the KMX, which will allow me to then upgrade the KMX with a rear suspension and swap in 16" motorcycle rims all around and lace the new motor to a 16" moto rim, build a new more aerodynamic body around it, and perhaps make any needed chassis repairs considering that the frame, seat, and steering components have almost 60,000 miles on them including being ridden in snow/ice/salt! With as much use as this thing has been through, I fear that something's going to fail sooner rather than later...
It's nice getting reimbursed the IRS rate for VMT for work in something that costs almost nothing to operate. I've made more money using this trike for work than I've thus far spent on upgrades, and this is completely aside from my base hourly pay. The use of this trike is literally paying for its own upgrades. I just can't put in the work to upgrade it because I can't afford to take it out of commission.
https://leafbike.com/products/e-bik...1000w-rear-electric-bike-motor-wheel-892.html
Does anyone here know if the new version has 12 gauge phase wires? How about thinner laminations vs the older version? I will be asking the company as well and will post back here if I hear anything.
I will be getting the 26" version instead of the 20" version so it will swap into my current KMX DIY velomobile setup without issue, to allow more performance without having to upgrade to a higher voltage battery pack, since I haven't had the time to finish spot welding my new 72V battery together with my job working me 60 hours a week combined with taking care of my mother at night. My current 46.8V pack should be good for close to 60 mph with a 3T wind version of this motor in a 26" wheel. The Phaserunner has served me well thus far and has only gotten warm to the touch.
But other than a quick motor swap, I can't do much work on the custom KMX project when I need it to be available to use for work the next day. I need a backup trike. I will be eventually obtaining a commercial velomobile to swap my current 4T wind 1500W 26" cassette motor into after I put the new 3T motor in the KMX, which will allow me to then upgrade the KMX with a rear suspension and swap in 16" motorcycle rims all around and lace the new motor to a 16" moto rim, build a new more aerodynamic body around it, and perhaps make any needed chassis repairs considering that the frame, seat, and steering components have almost 60,000 miles on them including being ridden in snow/ice/salt! With as much use as this thing has been through, I fear that something's going to fail sooner rather than later...
It's nice getting reimbursed the IRS rate for VMT for work in something that costs almost nothing to operate. I've made more money using this trike for work than I've thus far spent on upgrades, and this is completely aside from my base hourly pay. The use of this trike is literally paying for its own upgrades. I just can't put in the work to upgrade it because I can't afford to take it out of commission.
goatman
10 MW
im tempted to buy the juniper motor from asi so i can run thicker wires, if i go over 3200 watts on the PR, the ca3 starts picking up noise and acting up
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=111655&p=1654211&hilit=juniper#p1654211
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=111655&p=1654211&hilit=juniper#p1654211
The Toecutter
100 kW
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- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,315
The ASI looked promising at first, but the efficiency graph and stated peak efficiency don't match, the calipers measuring 0.5mm laminations seem to suggest this motor is far from as ideal as I initially thought it was, and it's no longer in production anyway.
I'm probably better off getting a Leafbike motor that more closely matches the parameters I want, since it appears as if the Leafbike motors are still the best DD hub motor available for my application. Which is unfortunate given that they are so antiquated already. either a synchronous reluctance or synchronous reactance DD hub motor would be able to make ridiculous amounts of peak power with much less weight and stator width(allowing more than 7-speeds on cassettes/freewheels fitted into 135mm dropouts), and would do away with the cogging losses altogether, yet no one with the money to pursue it is seeing the opportunity in that. Someone eventually will and make bank. I just hope it isn't 20 years from now.
I'm probably better off getting a Leafbike motor that more closely matches the parameters I want, since it appears as if the Leafbike motors are still the best DD hub motor available for my application. Which is unfortunate given that they are so antiquated already. either a synchronous reluctance or synchronous reactance DD hub motor would be able to make ridiculous amounts of peak power with much less weight and stator width(allowing more than 7-speeds on cassettes/freewheels fitted into 135mm dropouts), and would do away with the cogging losses altogether, yet no one with the money to pursue it is seeing the opportunity in that. Someone eventually will and make bank. I just hope it isn't 20 years from now.
markz
100 TW
How big do you think the market is for people who want that kind of motor?
It seems to me most people except the few want more then 1kw and stay within their arbitrary, made up local/regional limits.
The few diy'ers that do custom, probably settle on 1.5kw Leaf, or 3kw QS/MXUS, the fewer diy'ers are high speed addicts. :wink:
It seems to me most people except the few want more then 1kw and stay within their arbitrary, made up local/regional limits.
The few diy'ers that do custom, probably settle on 1.5kw Leaf, or 3kw QS/MXUS, the fewer diy'ers are high speed addicts. :wink:
The Toecutter said:
Chalo
100 TW
For electric motors "low performance" often means fault tolerant and reliable, something that won't burn up as soon as it departs its intended operating envelope. It's worth giving up a lot of power density in exchange for something that always works.
The Toecutter said:
Yeah i looked into that thread and saw inconsistent data in the spec sheet and that was the first red flag.
It's real unfortunate that ASI hasn't created the ultimate high efficiency bike hub. No matter how good the windings are, you can't make up for the handicap of using thick laminations.
I really hoped the popularity of the leaf hub and the suggestions i sent to leaf would have sent a message that consumers WANT a cutting edge design DD.
It's possible today to build a very high efficiency hub around the 9C clone design.. sad that nobody's taken up the task.
The Toecutter
100 kW
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Chalo said:
Electric motors in general, even the tiny ones used in mid drives that are relatively high strung, are very robust devices with few failure points. So perhaps you increase the rate of motor failure from one in one-thousand units to one in five-hundred units when it is run within manufactures' spec over 2,000 hours of use. Given the performance benefits, that's not much of a loss in reliability, and would be more than made up for in weight reduction and slight range increase.
neptronix said:
Even though PMDC can be improved by at least a few percentage points, it is obsolete.
At least the DIY electric car conversion parts industry that had catered to series DC designs for the last 4 decades got the hint and is now offering affordable synchronous reactance designs that have efficiency figures competitive with the drive system in the Tesla Model 3.
The Toecutter said:
Not so true.
I believe CSIRO still holds the efficiency crown for an electric motor since 2010 ( 98.4% efficiency peak ), and they're using a PMDC axial flux hub motor.
https://renew.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/marand_high_efficiency_motor.pdf
Induction motors may have a wider band of efficiency with a lower peak at the absolute best ( i've never seen a dyno graph of an exceptionally efficient small induction motor - because they don't exist ).. but require a more complex and expensive controller.
I think an induction hub motor would quickly cross the line into 'too expensive' for most people, but would like to be proven wrong.
The Toecutter
100 kW
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neptronix said:
That is impressive. I'd like to be able to buy one for an ebike application.
