Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
- Thread starter neptronix
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What are you going to use to read the sensor?
That determines which sensor you need, and which version of the sensor to use, and how to wire it. (for instance, most devices use the sensor wired from ground to the signal input, but some use it from a power source to the signal input...if the sensor is wired inside the motor from hall 5v to signal input then it can't be used on a device that needs it to be from ground to the signal input, and vice-versa).
BTW, if you get the NTC-10K, you also have to specify what Beta value to use--there are many, and each one makes for a different set of readings for the same temperature range, so using the wrong beta version for the device you're reading it with will mean your readings are wrong.
That determines which sensor you need, and which version of the sensor to use, and how to wire it. (for instance, most devices use the sensor wired from ground to the signal input, but some use it from a power source to the signal input...if the sensor is wired inside the motor from hall 5v to signal input then it can't be used on a device that needs it to be from ground to the signal input, and vice-versa).
BTW, if you get the NTC-10K, you also have to specify what Beta value to use--there are many, and each one makes for a different set of readings for the same temperature range, so using the wrong beta version for the device you're reading it with will mean your readings are wrong.
amberwolf said:
Beta = ramp up curve, gotcha, I had to look that up.
Reading:
I am assuming my controller can read that off the motor.
Phone > Bluetooth > Fardriver app > Far driver controller > Leaf motor
I don't really need to monitor it always, just baseline after I flog it and then I will know the max it will heat up.
I ride pretty gentle and don't really have high hills here in western michigan.
Beta: How do we ready factory temp sensors packed in other motors? Are there standards around this? Meaning, Can I ask leaf to put in a NTC-10k with xyz Beta value?
Shaft length:
I read here that I can request a longer shaft so I have more meat outside the dropouts to out in thicker torque plates etc.
Is that possible, anyone have one?
If you
If it doesn't support the one you get, you can always open the motor and install a compatible one, but this is a PITA.
Or if the controller doesn't support that beta it will still read temperature just be wrong, and if all you are using it for is manual measurements and not thermal rollback, you can put the supported beta's chart and the actual beta's chart together and create a chart you can refer to next to your display that converts the reading you see into the real reading.
I recommend verifying with a multimeter and some known-temperature conditions when you get the motor that they did what you asked. If you know the model of a sensor, you can find it's spec sheet (or other web pages about such sensors) which tells you the curve it will have. Knowing that, then you can measure the air temperature in a room, leave the motor in that room for a few hours, and see if the resistance of the sensor matches the chart's numbers for that temperature. Then you can heat or cool the motor (oven or fridge) to a known different temperature, and verify that the same way. If two points are the same as expected, it's likely a correct sensor. If either is significantly different, it's probably wrong sensor, but assuming it's still a 10k NTC you can calculate the beta it actually has from the resistances it reads at different temperatures (some websites out there show how).
You will want to check first, and verify which specific sensor(s) it supports, to be sure you get correct readings from it.gobi said:
If it doesn't support the one you get, you can always open the motor and install a compatible one, but this is a PITA.
Or if the controller doesn't support that beta it will still read temperature just be wrong, and if all you are using it for is manual measurements and not thermal rollback, you can put the supported beta's chart and the actual beta's chart together and create a chart you can refer to next to your display that converts the reading you see into the real reading.
There are several standards, which more or less means there isn't a standard. Certain motor companies tend to use certain specific sensors. Certain controller companies tend to support certain specific sensors. Whether these match each other depends more on luck than standards. It's even happened where systems bought as kits from various sites had sensor in motor different from what controller supported, so temperature readings were wrong.
You can ask them for anything...but what they will actually do, I don't know.
I recommend verifying with a multimeter and some known-temperature conditions when you get the motor that they did what you asked. If you know the model of a sensor, you can find it's spec sheet (or other web pages about such sensors) which tells you the curve it will have. Knowing that, then you can measure the air temperature in a room, leave the motor in that room for a few hours, and see if the resistance of the sensor matches the chart's numbers for that temperature. Then you can heat or cool the motor (oven or fridge) to a known different temperature, and verify that the same way. If two points are the same as expected, it's likely a correct sensor. If either is significantly different, it's probably wrong sensor, but assuming it's still a 10k NTC you can calculate the beta it actually has from the resistances it reads at different temperatures (some websites out there show how).
rockzzstud
1 µW
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- Nov 24, 2022
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- 1
I sent an email asking leafmotor about getting a stator with another turn on it.. i just have to know how she rolls on 72v!
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ZeroEm
1 MW
Have been running 72V, 40a on my 1500w leaf for years. Did not mod the wires. It's a 7T in a 26" wheel so only 33 mph top speed so does not pull a lot of amps. They come setup for 40a so would not worry unless pulling 60+ amps.
Those stators on their website are for the 1000w (20h-25h), not the 1500w (35h)
Leaf should be able to pull a 35h stator aside for you, depending on their inventory capacity and demand.
The 1000w Leafs probably sell a ton more then 1500w, because even on endless sphere, people are afraid of going over their areas legislative wattage limit. If Leaf cant give you a 35h stator, then its outsourced and accounted for each hub motor.
Leaf should be able to pull a 35h stator aside for you, depending on their inventory capacity and demand.
The 1000w Leafs probably sell a ton more then 1500w, because even on endless sphere, people are afraid of going over their areas legislative wattage limit. If Leaf cant give you a 35h stator, then its outsourced and accounted for each hub motor.
ZeroEm
1 MW
@neptronix-.027mm@3kw nom while you at it......wink wink
I think the 0.27mm laminations will broaden the efficiency curve and certainly improve efficiency at high speeds.
I would expect that the motor will have a legitimate rating of 2kw continuous and also have lower drag with these lams.
20 inch wheels would benefit the most and probably achieve stupid levels of efficiency/power, maybe something akin to 2.3kw continuous would be possible
I would expect that the motor will have a legitimate rating of 2kw continuous and also have lower drag with these lams.
20 inch wheels would benefit the most and probably achieve stupid levels of efficiency/power, maybe something akin to 2.3kw continuous would be possible
boytitan
100 W
I am currently using a voilimart 1500w 35mm hub motor with a 45 battery amp sabvoton controller with 120 phase amps and 10 amps of field weakening with 26 inch wheels and 2.2 inch tires. Speeds are 34-37mph depending on weather was 40f today and I was riding with the battery at 63volts after a few rides, battery gets to 67.8 volts. Will the leaf motor increase my top speed and efficiency on the same controller. My wattage per mile is abysmal btw. I was at 2300 watts continuous today getting 34mph. At 1500watts its 29mph. Battery sags by 4 to 3 volts. But weather has been cold. Will probably do better in warmer weather. Motor top offload speed is 47.9mph regardless of using a a 35 or 45 amp controller.
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Some thoughts:
Cold weather will affect the battery capability to supply current, which affects voltage sag, which affects total power available and top speed.
Field weakening "wastes" current (and thus battery capacity) to gain top speed.
Unloaded speed will be the same even if you had a 5A controller, because offground unloaded current draw should only be 2-3A even at max speed. Speed will be higher than loaded by usually around 20% or more depending on the system. If using an FOC controller or other controller that uses torque control, it will also reach max speed with even a tiny amount of throttle, because it only takes a small amount of current (torque) to do this unloaded).
With just a hubmotor changeout, to get a faster speed at the speeds you're going you'll need both a faster winding motor and more power out of your controller and battery (because it takes more power to go faster, nonlinearly).
Because of the power requirements to reach higher speeds (to overcome the air resistance), efficiency of the motor probably won't make much difference to total efficiency of the system / total power usage (wh/mile) because of the higher power required to go the faster speed.
You can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to estimate the power requirements for your specific riding conditions. There are instructions on using it below the simulator, but basically you pick battery and controller that can supply at least the power you need, and a motor with a similar winding to your present motor if you know what that is, seutp the bike parts of it to be like yours, and the terrain, wind, etc like yours. (set human power ot 0W so you can see the motor power needs). If there are no controller or battery options like yours, you can use the custom fields to simulate yours. Set throttle to Auto and just move the speed line on the chart to the speed you want under the conditions you've set, and the rest of the stuff will adjust to match, and the power used is displayed for battery, motor, etc below the chart.
Cold weather will affect the battery capability to supply current, which affects voltage sag, which affects total power available and top speed.
Field weakening "wastes" current (and thus battery capacity) to gain top speed.
Unloaded speed will be the same even if you had a 5A controller, because offground unloaded current draw should only be 2-3A even at max speed. Speed will be higher than loaded by usually around 20% or more depending on the system. If using an FOC controller or other controller that uses torque control, it will also reach max speed with even a tiny amount of throttle, because it only takes a small amount of current (torque) to do this unloaded).
With just a hubmotor changeout, to get a faster speed at the speeds you're going you'll need both a faster winding motor and more power out of your controller and battery (because it takes more power to go faster, nonlinearly).
Because of the power requirements to reach higher speeds (to overcome the air resistance), efficiency of the motor probably won't make much difference to total efficiency of the system / total power usage (wh/mile) because of the higher power required to go the faster speed.
You can use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to estimate the power requirements for your specific riding conditions. There are instructions on using it below the simulator, but basically you pick battery and controller that can supply at least the power you need, and a motor with a similar winding to your present motor if you know what that is, seutp the bike parts of it to be like yours, and the terrain, wind, etc like yours. (set human power ot 0W so you can see the motor power needs). If there are no controller or battery options like yours, you can use the custom fields to simulate yours. Set throttle to Auto and just move the speed line on the chart to the speed you want under the conditions you've set, and the rest of the stuff will adjust to match, and the power used is displayed for battery, motor, etc below the chart.
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A-DamW
1 kW
boytitan
100 W
So a better motor won't get me less wattage draw at x mph. I figured 1500 watts for 29mph was pretty bad. Ebikeling used to have leaf bike hub motor clones and I was seeing almost the same speeds as I am now at 60volts at 45 battery amps as I was on 52volt 30 battery amps from controller with more voltage sag than I currently have now and I was seeing 31-35 mph with only a max of 1560 continuous battery amps availible. I have increased my voltage by 12 volts, increase battery amps by 15 but I am only seeing a 2 mph increase for a 1230 watt continuous increase on violimart motors vs what I got from ebikeling 5 turn rate 1500w motors. I don't have my old equipment but I suspect voilmart motors are really inefficient even with it being 35mm. Or the motor has a unsuttible turn rate for 26 inch wheels. I should be seeing 39-41 mph at these specs.
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If you can't reach the speed you want without FW, then the motor is not wound for the speed you want, so it will take more power than normal to increase the speed to what you do get out of it past the actual wound speed.
Speed increases power usage nonlinearly; it takes MUCH more power to go a little bit faster than the speed you're already going, the faster you are already going.
If you want to see what you need for power levels (without FW and the wasted power that takes), use the ebikes.ca simulator. Or other power vs speed vs load vs terrain simulators. That way you can look for a good real solution because you'll know what power level you need.
The other option is to reduce power usage is to streamline the rider and vehicle aerodynamically. This will make it actually take less power to do the same job. It still takes much more power to go faster than you're already going...but not *as much* much more.
None of the motors are going to make enough efficiency difference to change the power requirements much for what you are trying to do. Whatever system you use to go faster will be *less* efficient than whatever you use to go slower, just because you will waste more and more power the faster you go, pushing your way thru the air in front of you.
Going to a non-hubmotor will make a difference to some degree, because you can spin a smaller motor faster and gear it way down, to convert speed into torque and still get the power you need to do the job.
Otherwise...you probably need a bigger motor (and possibly controller and battery) to do what you're after.
Speed increases power usage nonlinearly; it takes MUCH more power to go a little bit faster than the speed you're already going, the faster you are already going.
If you want to see what you need for power levels (without FW and the wasted power that takes), use the ebikes.ca simulator. Or other power vs speed vs load vs terrain simulators. That way you can look for a good real solution because you'll know what power level you need.
The other option is to reduce power usage is to streamline the rider and vehicle aerodynamically. This will make it actually take less power to do the same job. It still takes much more power to go faster than you're already going...but not *as much* much more.
None of the motors are going to make enough efficiency difference to change the power requirements much for what you are trying to do. Whatever system you use to go faster will be *less* efficient than whatever you use to go slower, just because you will waste more and more power the faster you go, pushing your way thru the air in front of you.
Going to a non-hubmotor will make a difference to some degree, because you can spin a smaller motor faster and gear it way down, to convert speed into torque and still get the power you need to do the job.
Otherwise...you probably need a bigger motor (and possibly controller and battery) to do what you're after.
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The Toecutter
100 kW
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,466
If they start making them like this, I may end up ordering 2 more of them. One for the custom build, another for my Milan SL. The current 3T Leafbike can already do around 2 kW continuous at 72V. Mine is in a 20" sized wheel.I think the 0.27mm laminations will broaden the efficiency curve and certainly improve efficiency at high speeds.
I would expect that the motor will have a legitimate rating of 2kw continuous and also have lower drag with these lams.
20 inch wheels would benefit the most and probably achieve stupid levels of efficiency/power, maybe something akin to 2.3kw continuous would be possible
Hopefully Grin starts making a faster wind version of their all-axle motor that is closely matched to this Leafbike. I have in mind making something with all wheel drive running 180V with a PowerVelocity controller to each run by a pack of Molicel P42A cells. Should this ever come to fruition, it will be time to go trolling for Dodge Charger Hellcats, Corvettes, Ferraris, and Teslas.
Field weakening is eating into your efficiency but numbers like those remind me of the old 0.5mm lamination hub motors. I distinctly remember using ~3000W to hit 40mph on those..
My best guess is that you could benefit from a better constructed motor.
I suggest you check your wattage against the ebikes.ca simulator if you haven't already;
Motor Simulator - Tools
Is that the 30mm wide one? If so, that's more impressive than i thought!
Totally agree about the faster windings!!!
Currently have this motor laced in a 24" rim. Don't want to have to unlace to make measurements to use in Grin spoke calculator before ordering rim and spokes because this is a daily use bike. Anyone running this motor in a regular 20" rim. If so, which rim and what length/gauge spokes are you using. Thx.
The Toecutter
100 kW
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2015
- Messages
- 1,466
I have the 35mm variants. A 4T in a 26" wheel with a 7-speed cassette and a 3T in a 20" with a 7-speed freewheel.
