LiFe battery with bare case.

JamStrong

1 mW
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Feb 25, 2015
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19
I put together a LiFePo4 3.2V 20ah (60v all together) pack from Hangzhou Liao:

http://hzliao.en.alibaba.com/product/673618911-215253674/LiFePo4_3_2V_10ah_battery_cell.html

The batteries actually came with a bare metal case (no protective sleeve). I didn't think much of it and continued to put the pack together. Out of curiosity, I checked to see if the case was electrically isolated. Come to find out, the cases show 60 volts in relation to ground (I did not connect the cases to anything). I was wondering if anyone else has seen this before, and if so, do you see this being an issue.
 
Can you be more specific in how you took the 60V measurement? Draw a schematic perhaps? This sounds potentially scary or, at the very least, problematic.
 
Attached is a picture of my setup for testing purposes:
20150202_235048-2.png

The bare metal cases are all touching each other. Each cell is connected to the BMS. I can charge them successfully and the BMS has no problem balancing the cells. I can run the motor with no problem; nothing overheats.

When I measure the voltage of the case, placing the negative probe of the volt meter to the main negative on cell 1, and the positive probe of the meter on any of the cases, I see ~60 volts which is the nominal voltage of this pack. I just find it odd that the battery cases would show any voltage at all.
 
Sounds a bit like round cells, where the entire can is the negative terminal.
 
the cases appear to be plastic also which is really curious. if the case was metal it would make sense that the anode of the top cell is shorted to the case but if they are plastic they should not show that potential expressed on the case.
 
dnmun said:
the cases appear to be plastic
What makes you think that?

This is an odd result, particularly since I doubt your pack voltage is exactly 60 V. This makes me suspect a measurement error. The first thing I would do is make sure your meter is on the right setting (probably 200 VDC), that the probes are in the right sockets, and maybe put a fresh battery in the meter.

Then disconnect the pack from everything else and make sure it's sitting on an isolated surface.

If you still get the same result, I'd measure:

(1) pack - to pack +
(2) pack - to case
(3) case to pack +

The last two should sum to the first one.

You could also pull out an individual cell, switch to the 20 VDC range, and do the same measurements on a cell.

This is definitely worth getting to the bottom of, so post some more measurements and we'll see if it starts to make sense.
 
I can assure you that the battery cases are metal.

When I measured the battery pack as a whole, I got roughly 60 volts (~60V). To be exact, I get 66.8 volts which is exactly the voltage I get when I measure it across the negative and positive terminals of the pack.

When I received the batteries, I thought it would be good to connect the cases together to help distribute the heat. when I create a frame for the pack, I was hoping that it would be easier to draw the heat away from the battery pack.

Dogman Dan made a good point about the cases usually tied to ground on the round type. I'll email the manufacturer and ask them if this was intentional. Also, form Cycborgs advice, I'll go ahead and test a single cell and see if the positive post is internally connected to the case. I'll post what I find when I get home.

Thanks.
 
Seems that the only way you could get this result is if all the cases are isolated except for the last (i.e. most positive) one, which is shorted to + of that cell, which is + of the pack. If each case was connected to its +, then each one would be at the incremental voltage of that cell and when you touch the cases together there would be all sorts of fireworks.

If this is what's going on, then I'd suggest pulling that cell out of the pack. Measure its case relative to its terminals; should be 0 V relative to + and about 3.34 relative to -. Then measure the case of the remaining pack relative to pack ground. You shouldn't get anything in particular.
 
20150202_235048-2.png

Pulled a single cell out of the pack and found that the case is in fact connected internally to ground. I was really hoping that the case was electrically isolated so that I can pull heat out of the pack with more efficiency but I guess I'll have to add insulation to each case with a heat shrink sleeve.

I have not been able to find anyone with experience with this type of bare metal cell (at least not in the rectangle package). Hope this helps with anyone that uses this type of battery.

Thanks a lot guys!
 
As I said, if they were all connected to their ground terminals, when connected they would all be at different voltages, and putting the cases in contact would have some immediate bad consequences. The only way your results make sense to me is if all the cases are isolated except the most positive one. And I notice that your photo shows that you removed cell 20 - is this the most positive one? Did you remove more than one cell to see if you got the same result?

But now even this explanation doesn’t make sense to me because if cell 20’s case is connected to its negative terminal rather than positive, then your measurement of pack negative to case should give a result that’s about 3.3 V lower than pack+ to pack-.

I’m baffled. I think putting insulators between the cells is probably a good idea, but that assumes what you’re seeing is by design and not due to a defect. Good luck.
 
you should replace it if it has a metal case and is shorted from the anode to the case. the manufacturer should replace it as a manufacturing defect. the rivets for the anode terminal likely shorted to the case.
 
A few comments:

Cylindrical cells, at least A123 cells, have the can tied to the + terminal (cathode), not the negative.

First thing to do is find out if these cans are supposed to be connected to one side or the other of the electrode stack. The manufacturer has to answer this question.

Next is to characterize their isolation (or lack thereof) at the cell level. You have already done some work to this end, but there are more tests you can run that will give you a better picture of what's going on here. It could be that you are seeing "surface charge" being capacitively coupled to the cans. Measure the cell can with reference to ground with a good quality DMM. Then do the same with reference to the positive terminal (you may see negative voltage here). Pay close attention to the voltage you see immediately when connecting the meter. It may very well drop off sharply within a second or less. (I use the logging feature of the Fluke 289 to make curves of the results--this is a very telling method.) If you get voltage that does not fall off quickly or sharply, try putting a 1M ohm resistor in parallel with the meter and see how the voltage drops. Remove the resistor and measure how/if the voltage bounces back. Often you will see an indication of capacitive coupling between the can and electrode stack. Even though some amount of charge can be transferred to the can in this way, it's not dangerous as-is if the load of the meter (or 1M resistor) is enough to drain off the charge quickly. Current can flow, but it's as though it's flowing through a resistor of very high value, so there are no fireworks when you put cells like this on top of each other, You may, however experience complex self-discharge behaviors in a pack assembled without isolation between cans. Worse yet, if vibration or impact causes a loss of isolation between the can and electrode stack in one or more cells, you can be in for something spectacular. For this reason, you should NEVER build a pack of cells with metal exteriors without insulating the series cell groups from each other. Sudden loss of isolation can be dangerous. Most often, you'll just get leakage voltage onto the pack surface that may tickle you now an then if you can feel it at all. You're more likely to notice one of more cells are experiencing high self discharge because they are "leaking through each other" via multiple leakage paths.

This is another one of those concepts that's kind of hard to wrap the brain around at first, but it's really basic at the end of the day. Hopefully that clarifies the possibilities a bit.
 
OK... As requested from wb9k, I checked to see if the case had parasitic capacitance and indeed it did. The pack, when assembled, induced voltage on the cases themselves. The case is not tied directly to any of the terminals. I checked the other cells and found this same behavior.

So, I ordered some heat shrink sleeves to help isolate each cell. I plan on putting this setup on a motorcycle and it will be a bumpy ride. So this should help reduce that parasitic capacitance.

I bought these batteries at a cheap price. The manufacturer had leftover batteries from their last run and they are not making more 20aH batteries till April. So, I guess they didn't want to send me the batteries with sleeves with their logo.

I didn't burn down my house and I learned something new. Hope this helps others that receive bare metal cases.
 
JamStrong said:
OK... As requested from wb9k, I checked to see if the case had parasitic capacitance and indeed it did. The pack, when assembled, induced voltage on the cases themselves. The case is not tied directly to any of the terminals. I checked the other cells and found this same behavior.

So, I ordered some heat shrink sleeves to help isolate each cell. I plan on putting this setup on a motorcycle and it will be a bumpy ride. So this should help reduce that parasitic capacitance.

I bought these batteries at a cheap price. The manufacturer had leftover batteries from their last run and they are not making more 20aH batteries till April. So, I guess they didn't want to send me the batteries with sleeves with their logo.

I didn't burn down my house and I learned something new. Hope this helps others that receive bare metal cases.

Nice work. Thanks for sharing your experience and having the sense to fix the issue before it becomes a problem. A certain amount of parasitic capacitance with the cans is unavoidable, but it's important to keep the cans of separate cells isolated from each other so that voltages can't stack up through the series string of cans. Capacitive leakage through the case at the cell level isn't too complex or significant, but when you start putting larger amounts of potential across the virtual capacitor with larger and larger capacitance (because of increased surface area), varying impedances from one electrode stack to another with their respective cans can lead to some very interesting pack-level self-discharge issues. With time, they are virtually guaranteed to only get worse. In a pack, this can be disastrous if there is hard loss of isolation in more than one cell. The bigger the pack, the bigger the risk.

Did you get the cells directly from the manufacturer? Hopefully there's nothing really wrong with them beyond lack of a sleeve, but it's kind of crazy that they would ship you something such high potential to be a nuisance or even dangerous. Did they make any suggestions about isolation for pack design? Good luck with the bike!
 
I did buy the batteries directly from the manufacturer. In their defense, they did give me a discount and told me beforehand that they would be sending me batteries in this condition (no sleeve). It was this or I would have had to wait till April when they make the batteries with the sleeves. Beyond the lack of sleeve, the batteries are working just fine. I would still recommend them; they were helpful.
 
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