LiFePo4 Batteries

[hodge]

My name is Hodge Strange with Energy One Electronics, Phoenixville, Pa.. We are a battery distributor with our primary product being lithium thionyl cells for metering systems and power packs. Recently we have brought in a 12v10ah LiFePo4 pack for
a customer now using it for a high power spot light (Peak Beam Systems). We are persuing a 36v10ah pack and a 36v20ah pack
for e-bike use. These packs will be distributed here in the US by us, a US co. with direct factory relationship with the Chinese
manufacturer. I am looking for feedback from the end user to make suggestions about the design parameters (size, weight, capacity,price points, etc.). These packs will be IATA certified for shipping and carry warranty back up by us here in the US. We have our own brand name, Omnicel, for our current line, and can provide service from our offices, warehouse, and assembly facilities here in Pa.. Anyone interested in starting a dialogue would be appreciated. Ultimately we would like to provide a quality dependable product at a competative price with quality service.Thanks!
Hodge
Addtional info. can be found on our websites:
www.energyoneinc.com
www.omnicel.com

 

[cal3thousand]

People want batteries the will be mountable within the triangle of a bike without interfering with pedaling. 36V is just OK, most around here will eventually want 48V+.

10Ah packs seem to be a good size, but there are plenty here wanting more range, so 20Ah would be nice to see.

A pack with more than 1-1.5kWh that fits inside the triangle would be sweet. Also make sure that the packs can handle the draws required by some folks here.

 

[MikeFairbanks]

Well, it's going to be hard to beat Ping when it comes to pricing.

And Cellman (zeroemissions) sells a great product at a pretty good price too.

But more competition is a good thing.

For some of us it's all about price as a priority.

Finally, contact Jason at EbikeKit.com. He's the man. He sells out of Pennsylvania, just like you guys. He moves a lot of units these days and is growing. His bike kits currently are sold with or without batteries, but he only provides SLAs. Maybe you can work something out.

I hooked him up with Worksman and they are making things happen too (Worksman Industrial Bicycles of New York).


As far as the technical stuff, I'm definitely not your guy (ask anyone here). But 48 volts is a must. 36 is good too. Lots of guys are running at 36.

So far there are very few one-stop-shopping ebike kits in the USA. It's still mostly buying from here, buying from there, and putting it together.

Ebikes are extremely rare in the USA so far, but the superheroes here at Endless Sphere (myself only slightly included) are spreading the gospel as best as we can.

 

[The fingers]

Warranty and customer service seem to be important to many of us, along with value.

 

[Drunkskunk]

One thing missing from LiFePO4 available from most Ebike vendors is a High C rate. Generally they can only put out a sustained rate of 20 amps, or for some of the better vendors, a C rate of 2 to 2.5, meaning 30 amps output from a 15ah pack.

True LiFePO4 are capable of more, but the choice of low grade cells and limited BMS functionality means we are stuck with RC batteries for our high end amp thirsty bikes.


What we need is a 48v 10Ah battery that can deliver 40 amps continuously, with peaks around 60 amps, and no long term effects.
That's only 4c, with 6c peak. Its not asking much of the technology, but its something that no one has brought to the mass market yet.
An A123 prismatic cell, for example, has Maximal current discharge rate of 15C, 37C peak. *see below for source

Most people don't need that (though I could use it ) but 4C would would be better than we have available.






* http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4ZyxDw&usg=AFQjCNGGsTLmKdRHJya9CnLuOEW_joI5fg

 

[dogman dan]

Yep. 10 ah batteries are nearly useless to American ebikers unless they have a 5c rating. Or at least an honest, not fluffed up 3. I pulled the number 5c, because we are already in the habit of routinely cutting c rate claims in half. So 5c cut in half would still run a 20 amp controller ok.

Europeans might have more use for a 2c 10 ah pack, but we don't. 20 mph rule here, and we are ignoring that anyway. 1000w is the norm, 48v 20 amp controllers.

 

[nicobie]

Yea, 48v would probably be the best voltage. That way the high power guys could buy two and get the 96v they want. However if the 48v batteries come hot off the charger at 60v like Ping's do. them 36v might be the best.

Like Dogman suggested we really do require a true 5C battery if you are going to offer 10Ah packs. A more use able 15 - 20 Ah pack would most likely be OK with a 4C discharge.

Ckeck Hobby King's 6s 5Ah Lipo prices to see what you are up against price wise. If your batteries are LiFePo4 we would pay a bit more because of the safety factor.

Good luck! we always need another supplier.

 

[Lessss]

Don't trust Chinese manufacturers! They are almost, but not quite as bad, as the Merican suppliers of the wire for building the golden gate bridge.

Visit the factory and have an agent in country that will visit and inspect the factory routinely to inspect the line, the suppliers, assembly, final product, shipping etc..

 

[Ykick]

I perused Omnicell website and they appear to be low C rate consumer size cells. As already noted drawing a solid 40A from 10Ah pack is performance most of us will expect for eBike battery pack C rate.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, at least not killing a 10 ah pack with a 20 amp contoller as a mimimum would be nice.

In the 20 ah size, the lower c rate cells still works for the usual controllers in a kit. They might look into offering it in 15 ah, which still works (but at the very limit) for a 20 ah controller with 2c cells.

Just saying, sell a lot of 10 ah 2c packs to people with 20 amp controllers and you'll get more failures. One weak cell, in a two pouch cell group, and now you have a cell with only 5 ah capacity. Here come the returns when that happens.

Of course, no problem if china sends you 100% perfect product. :lol:

Dumbass consumers will just look at the price, and want the 10 ah. What do you do? I suggest the Grin buisness model. Get it right, and it's less trouble than selling crap. Good product makes the good CS much easier.

 

[veloman]

This is what we want (my perspective):

36v is fine for many ebikers, 48v is a definite need though. Focus on these two, perhaps 60v-72v but in reality EndessSphere is a reflection of the DIY market, not the total ebike market.

10ah is a good option, but also make a 15 and 20ah too.

The key is C rate. We need a legit 3-4c rate SUSTAINED rated. That means the battery should be rated for 1000+ cycles at 3-4c rate CONSTANT, not peak capability. Cellmans A123 have met that need well for a fair price. Maybe you can do better with larger economies of scale and US distributor? Great.

Warranty and customer support are always important too.

One more big thing: battery enclosure/mounting mechanism. We all spend a lot of time trying to mount our batteries well inside the triangle. Make it easier if you can. Think of a triangle pack with adjustable frame tube mounts on it. Make it easily removable and lockable and you have a winner. Rear rack mounted batteries are easy to make and fit any rack, but they make the bike handle like crap.

Then it all comes down to price. Ping has the best price for proven, turn key lifepo4 batteries that are 2c rated. If you can offer the same price on 4c batteries then you'll get a lot of interest.

PM me if you want to discuss more or reply here.

 

[Starson]

Well, it's going to be hard to beat Ping when it comes to pricing.

And Cellman (zeroemissions) sells a great product at a pretty good price too.

http://www.emissions-free.com (emissions-free)