LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

Yes I am selling the secondary tensioner as an upgrade accessory. Give me a week or two to get caught up with mid drive kit orders before the holidays and I'll get tensioners out to the people who want them. You need to drill one hole in your upper sheets for mounting and to file one sprocket guard spacer down to make room for the spring attachment bracket.

 

[John Bozi]

[youtube]JKncx_2dwRQ[/youtube]

Have learnt a lot more about my CAv3 and most of its features. My favourite by far is up ramping and amp limiting. For normalish kind of riding it can tame this beast of a motor to comfortable ride.

Still trying to work out reducing oscilations on extreme climbing.

After riding around my house 20 times playing with settings, I recharged and did a long ride at these settings pretty happy with 5ah to go out for a ride around the dam. I had to pedal up some super steep bits, but I am getting fat :lol:

 

[spinningmagnets]

For the throttle-ramping and amp limiting, what setting numbers did you use?

 

[John Bozi]

For the throttle-ramping and amp limiting, what setting numbers did you use?

I am running

upramp about "1"

throttle through the current / amp option (might trial watts to see if it will be more consistant through out the battery range soon)

limited to 20 amps

gain was around 300 (still playing with this) I have no annoying oscillations unless steep and running higher amps. I almost fell off the bike many times trying to conquer the super steep rough testing area behind my house which requires more like 3kw. I am avoiding extreme riding until I have everything running correctly on the bike.

To be honest I don't think I will ever see the need to exceed 3kw. Mike and many others were right with their advice that the small block is more than enough for most people. After a 5 ah ride in summer I couldn't get 15 degrees C over ambient!

NOte I am running 32 front x 20t back. There are a few times I want faster and a few times I want slower but this is perfect for 90% of riding.

 

[r3volved]

What tooth count am I looking for in a WI freewheel?

 

[mjmoomaw]

John, I am running the normal (non-big block) Lightning Rods setup with good results. Based on your post I am excited to play with my CA3 throttle settings to smooth out the throttle action.

What top speed are you seeing? I am topping out just above 30 mph on the flat but it feels like there is plenty of power left. I am thinking about a gearing change...

Thanks.

-Mike

 

[FluxShifter]

@ John Bozi

You're jackshaft being bent might be the cause of your oscillations. My grub screw fell out of the 12t driver on the secondary side and got wedged between the chain wheel and chain. I don't have the secondary tensioner yet so it bent my jackshaft. Bent so bad in fact that when I put it back together and road it the 219 chain broke after 5 miles. Now I remember what it's like to pedal un assisted. I'm not sure if the tensioner set up is spring loaded but this would help with any debris causing to much tension. I'm waiting for Mike to come out with his hardened chromo jackshaft to replace mine on the standard small block kit.

 

[LightningRods]

Wow that's two cases of those grub screws coming out. I had no idea that was an issue. Sounds like Locktite is in order from now on. Screws seem to either come loose on their own or refuse to ever come loose even with gorilla force applied.

The chrome moly jackshafts are available now. Please let me know that you want one and then be patient. I need to gather a group of at least ten for my machinist so that we can afford them.

 

[LightningRods]

What tooth count am I looking for in a WI freewheel?

I'm not sure that I understand your question. The jackshaft and chainwheel freewheels are flanged, no teeth. Are you talking about a single speed on the rear wheel? I'd go as low as you can tolerate. Starting out in a high speed gear is going to tear everything up. Skipping drive chains will be the least serious problem.

 

[r3volved]

I just don't know what I'm looking for exactly as a replacement freewheel... ?? http://www.whiteind.com/new-page ??

I haven't taken anything apart yet until I have parts since it's kinda my daily commuter.

The old gng crankset was a generic 16t freewheel and the chainwheel was held rigid by those 4 bolts grabbing the teeth of the freewheel...

Is that how yours works as well?

EDIT...aha!! Flanged eh...I think I found what I'm looking for...

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=62

 

[LightningRods]

GNG uses a four bolt pattern. This allows them to use either cheap Chinese four bolt flanged freewheels or cheap Chinese 16 tooth freewheels. The four bolt holes line up with every fourth valley between the teeth.

I use a five bolt pattern which is compatible with ACS and White Industries. Yes that is the flanged freewheel that you want. It's the only freewheel available that's stronger than the chrome moly ACS. It's unfortunate that it costs 3x as much or I would offer it standard. White Ind will not sell direct to me because they have a sweetheart deal with SBP.

 

[r3volved]

Ya no wonder I couldn't find it on their website...it's build special for SBP ...jerks. The flanged keyword is what I was missing...I see many results now. I figure if one WI lasts as long as 2 cheapies then it's worth the upgrade (for my setup...)

As far as the 1500w rating you put on the small block, I feel that all the components you've supplied are beyond strong enough. It's only been my short window of 5kw (>2.5x rated) peaks that started the wearing and tearing on the kit. 3kw isn't as hard on it but is wearing the freewheels now. If one were to use as rated, I can't see any real issues other than maybe the slight wobble several ppl have experienced in the freewheels.

The gng @2kw would eat belts every few hundred km...I'm up over 3000km on your stock belt at >=3kw *grin*.

The gng tore my chainring set apart after about 500km and required a rebuild with a slight bit of reengineering.

I compare the two a lot since they're so similar...used as rated, your kit dominates - hands down.

How many small/big block problems have been discovered at stock power levels?? Any??

 

[LightningRods]

Well sure there have been problems as we went along, even at stock power levels. I'm relentlessly upgrading any component that has problems. I am somewhat stuck in between the Chinese crap merchants who keep increasing customer expectations for low price point and my desire to use only the best components. I may reach a point where I have to abandon the notion of making an affordable kit for a lot of people and just make expensive mid drives for a few people.

My immediate plan is to offer upgrade paths where customers can upgrade to Trial Tech crank arms, White Industries freewheels, Extron 219 sprockets, billet chainrings and so on. Most of the complaints I receive are because of trying to use affordable components provided by other vendors. I'll let the customer choose their quality level.

 

[John Bozi]

@ John Bozi

You're jackshaft being bent might be the cause of your oscillations. My grub screw fell out of the 12t driver on the secondary side and got wedged between the chain wheel and chain. I don't have the secondary tensioner yet so it bent my jackshaft. Bent so bad in fact that when I put it back together and road it the 219 chain broke after 5 miles. Now I remember what it's like to pedal un assisted. I'm not sure if the tensioner set up is spring loaded but this would help with any debris causing to much tension. I'm waiting for Mike to come out with his hardened chromo jackshaft to replace mine on the standard small block kit.

Yes identical, but if I had run it loose it would have probably given the grub screw the extra chain to allow it to go around with out causing everything else to take the tension. The tension was at the recommended finger push bit of slack. You may have seen I have added a ring of polymorph plastic over the grub screws to keep them in place.

I am in pm discussion with Mike about the shaft too.

 

[John Bozi]

John, I am running the normal (non-big block) Lightning Rods setup with good results. Based on your post I am excited to play with my CA3 throttle settings to smooth out the throttle action.

What top speed are you seeing? I am topping out just above 30 mph on the flat but it feels like there is plenty of power left. I am thinking about a gearing change...

Thanks.

-Mike

no speedo but I know 32t x 20t is about 40kmh. It makes for a nice cadence for pedalling off road trail too, and if you had to ride home in shame it doesnt feel hard to pedal at all.

I would say don't copy that 1 500 setting as I am still constantly changing it myself. When you change one the other one needs to change. Just keep playing with it until you are happy with it.

I was a running a setting there you could pull full throttle and just wait for it to creep up to full power over a minute! NOt ideal but you could exercise for a bit. There are other settings I am trying to get my head around like the fast and thrash (something like that) its the bit at the start to get you started..... Maybe we should start a new thread on that?

Another setting I would change for all the big block users especially is disconnect the temperature probe to the motor. It is pointless. Get a probe for your controller as that will overheat on extreme climbing years before the motor even knows its been turned on.

Finally I don't see the need to push this beyond 3kw at all. Off road most steep sections you want the bike to slow down and hold full throttle anyway as its easier to negotiate the erosion, rocks roots ruts etc....

I look forward to getting this running smoothly at lower power levels because the least amount of power to do what you want means less battery needed, less heat, less stress on the drive train, as a result less time writing on this forum and doing monkey mechanics and more time riding 8)

 

[r3volved]

John, from the CA3 page (http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html)

Fast Rate: This is an additional fast ramp-up rate for the throttle output that applies only if the CA has not detected any current flow from the battery. It allows the CA’s output quickly reach a level that starts having an effect on the controller before then dropping to the normal ‘up rate’ limit. This eliminates the lag time for a ramped throttle output to catch up with the bike when you apply the throttle and are already moving. Values of 4-8 V/sec are recommended.

Fast Thrsh: This sets the threshold current that must be seen by the CA for it to switch from the “Fast Rate” to the standard ramp-up rate. For direct drive hub motors, it should be quite low, like 0.5 to 1A. But for geared motors or mid-drive systems, it should be higher than the no-load current required to accelerate the motor from still. Usually a threshold of 2 to 4 Amps works well.

My understanding is that - when in motion - these settings tell the motor the rate to spin up until its rpms align with your forward motion. When your no-load spinup (because you're moving) hits the load that you've set in Thrsh, it will switch from 'fast rate' to the normal 'up rate'.

This is strictly to spin up the motor during motion. Otherwise when you're doing 50kmh and you release and reengage throttle, it would lag as it would ramp up at your 'up rate'.

You don't want the thrsh so low that you lag on accel and you also don't want it set too high that it torque-out your chainring

 

[stonezone]

GNG uses a four bolt pattern. This allows them to use either cheap Chinese four bolt flanged freewheels or cheap Chinese 16 tooth freewheels. The four bolt holes line up with every fourth valley between the teeth.

I use a five bolt pattern which is compatible with ACS and White Industries. Yes that is the flanged freewheel that you want. It's the only freewheel available that's stronger than the chrome moly ACS. It's unfortunate that it costs 3x as much or I would offer it standard. White Ind will not sell direct to me because they have a sweetheart deal with SBP.

The flanged HDFW wont fit on the JS FW adapter FYI

I miss you mike, you haven't written back in so long...did you forget about 'us' and all the special moments we've shared?

 

[stonezone]

John, from the CA3 page (http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html)

Fast Rate: This is an additional fast ramp-up rate for the throttle output that applies only if the CA has not detected any current flow from the battery. It allows the CA’s output quickly reach a level that starts having an effect on the controller before then dropping to the normal ‘up rate’ limit. This eliminates the lag time for a ramped throttle output to catch up with the bike when you apply the throttle and are already moving. Values of 4-8 V/sec are recommended.

Fast Thrsh: This sets the threshold current that must be seen by the CA for it to switch from the “Fast Rate” to the standard ramp-up rate. For direct drive hub motors, it should be quite low, like 0.5 to 1A. But for geared motors or mid-drive systems, it should be higher than the no-load current required to accelerate the motor from still. Usually a threshold of 2 to 4 Amps works well.

My understanding is that - when in motion - these settings tell the motor the rate to spin up until its rpms align with your forward motion. When your no-load spinup (because you're moving) hits the load that you've set in Thrsh, it will switch from 'fast rate' to the normal 'up rate'.

This is strictly to spin up the motor during motion. Otherwise when you're doing 50kmh and you release and reengage throttle, it would lag as it would ramp up at your 'up rate'.

You don't want the thrsh so low that you lag on accel and you also don't want it set too high that it torque-out your chainring

my voltage/gain settings work fine in the trail under a slight load, but on the pavement it oscillates. I stopped playing with it for 2 reasons:
one - it works almost perfectly providing smooth power at 3 levels in the trails as is, and was making my brain hurt.
two - its been raining for a month.

 

[cheekybloke]

GNG uses a four bolt pattern. This allows them to use either cheap Chinese four bolt flanged freewheels or cheap Chinese 16 tooth freewheels. The four bolt holes line up with every fourth valley between the teeth.

I use a five bolt pattern which is compatible with ACS and White Industries. Yes that is the flanged freewheel that you want. It's the only freewheel available that's stronger than the chrome moly ACS. It's unfortunate that it costs 3x as much or I would offer it standard. White Ind will not sell direct to me because they have a sweetheart deal with SBP.

The flanged HDFW wont fit on the JS FW adapter FYI

I miss you mike, you haven't written back in so long...did you forget about 'us' and all the special moments we've shared?

What is a JS ?
I was just about to order W.I flanged freewheels for my kit and dont want to waste cash on stuff that wont fit.

 

[stonezone]

GNG uses a four bolt pattern. This allows them to use either cheap Chinese four bolt flanged freewheels or cheap Chinese 16 tooth freewheels. The four bolt holes line up with every fourth valley between the teeth.

I use a five bolt pattern which is compatible with ACS and White Industries. Yes that is the flanged freewheel that you want. It's the only freewheel available that's stronger than the chrome moly ACS. It's unfortunate that it costs 3x as much or I would offer it standard. White Ind will not sell direct to me because they have a sweetheart deal with SBP.

The flanged HDFW wont fit on the JS FW adapter FYI

I miss you mike, you haven't written back in so long...did you forget about 'us' and all the special moments we've shared?

What is a JS ?
I was just about to order W.I flanged freewheels for my kit and dont want to waste cash on stuff that wont fit.

JackShaft

 

[LightningRods]

I didn't get email notifications on any of your posts, Zack. Cheekybloke tipped me off that you were in here raising a ruckus.

I haven't fitted a W-I freewheel to any of my threaded parts. I did write W-I before making the hubs and their engineer assured me that their spec of "1.37-24" is the same as the BSA standard of 1.375"-24 that I make all of my parts to conform to.

I know, you're thinking "But it doesn't FIT!" We need to check in with Foppel and his crew in Switzerland. I'm pretty sure that they have been running W-I freewheels on their LR mid drives. I don't know what's up here. Did SBP send you a left hand thread freewheel?

Regardless, I plan to run a W-I freewheel on the secondary side of the big block mid bike drive for the Luna. If I have to make another custom hub to fit the W-I, I will.

 

[Mammalian04]

Good to know and I'm glad I won't be the guinea pig with that $$$ freewheel. As we all do, I have so many parts that I will never use because they were the wrong ones or didn't fit. I should probably just make an eBay day of it and clear them out but I keep thinking,"what if I need that." I even do that with scrap metal. Ugh...

 

[r3volved]

I'm pretty set on at least trying the flanged-WI from SBP. I'll be the guinea

 

[LightningRods]

I PMed Foppel. Hopefully he will chime in with W-I freewheel info.

I've had several people check in with me recently on the Luna mid drives. I'm ordering the parts for first production run right now. I made a last minute decision to upgrade the diameter of the lower jackshaft from 12mm to 15mm. That's 25% more chrome moly to handle big block torque. That was the last piece that I was hesitating about.

I'm hoping to get everyone's Luna drives to them by Christmas.

 

[Mammalian04]

Woohoo! LR Fat bikes for all and to all a good night!