LightningRods mid drive kit

[izeman]

the one argument i agree with is, that the motors come preinstalled with chinese halls for sure, and that every "fake" hall i received and tested before installation did work.
but there still are differences between fake and genuine parts. this doesn't mean that "fake" ones don't work, and the problem may not be as evident as with fake FETs which cause REAL troubles, but if i have to open a motor i prefer to install components which are known to work within their stated criteria.
if the difference between fake and genuine is $4, then this is peanuts compared to my time spent.
as we all never will know WHY the hall stopped working, noone can say if a genuine would have worked longer under the same conditions. schroedinger's cat problem.
so finally it's up to everyone own to decide if saving a few bucks is worth it or not.

 

[John Bozi]

trying out the xnoitulous bolt. Will mod and tidy if it works, othersise it will be bearing wheel. On road I don't need anything, off road the chain is still jumping off epic jams.

Will do test run now.

EDIT

Bolt did its thing, kept the chain from getting tangled up in the BB area which is always the biggest problem.... still having issues with the rear tensioner but thats no biggy.....

Sound has gotten bit worse (didn't lube up)

[youtube]QmNdzW06tHI[/youtube]

 

[jpgey]

Hello, can someone confirm the temp sensor ?
Is it a 10K NTC thermistor with a beta constant of 3900 or a KTY 41 inside the BigBlock ?

Thanks

 

[LightningRods]

It's a 10k thermistor.

Thanks for the post, ElectricGod. I'm going to post the in-motor testing process that Edward Lyen sent to me. I understand how the halls work and how the board is laid out and I'm still not getting his process to work for me. It would be good to have a test that didn't involve opening the motor and pulling the hall. I'm going to have to try pulling the halls from another motor. The small block I played with was dead from a customer overheating it. The hall blocks may have fused to the laminations.

Where did you get the nifty electronics tester?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[John Bozi]

[youtube]fMgImHbZ5WY[/youtube]
[youtube]jjTDfuQlJ-E[/youtube]

 

[xnoitulos]

Sup guys! Thanks for the shout out on the chain watcher John Bozi. I'll tell you just the other day I had my chain snap, and it flung forward so hard it bent the stainless M8 bolt I'm using 30 degrees forward. Was able to bend it back straight with a pair of 10" cobra pliers. That's after I foot scootered it to a small bike shop 6 blocks from the snap to borrow a chain tool and buy a KMC missing link.

So, the 120 amp controller arrived! I hooked it up to the same BBlock, CA, Battery, and throttle I'm currently running. Of course, nothing worth doing is easy.. the controller is configed to spin the motor (the other direction) clockwise. After trying all 6 Phase wire combonations, the best i could get is a rough "backwards" motion. I put the phase wires all back to stock (which ran smooth but just freewheeling), and connected the reverse switch. I was able to ride it around like this, and did get a 68A pull, but found some sort of speed limiter at 25mph. In my normal gear(40/17t) is was DEF picking up the front wheel and I was laughing about the back protection comments, which are not bad idea. I tried fooling with a few other settings, but it still wasn't running right.

I hit the ESphere hard looking for an answer and found a astute guy claiming much experience with trying to reverse controllers, followed by a post from non other than Justin_le himself claiming it can't always be done. At that point I pulled it all apart and put it back together with the stock Lyen. THEN, FML, I later continued reading the thread, and others chime in, and Justin admits he may be wrong, and it apparently takes not just messing with the phase wires, but also the hall wires (which have recently been of subject). It's so hard not to spend all my time working on it! Have to move out by the 30th, so might be a minute before I try it all out again.

So, I did see some talk of "flipping" the hall sensors over? What I read about the potting seems to go againist this, but hopefully I can get this controller to spin the BBlock smoothly!

Cheers!

 

[spinningmagnets]

"Off topic" discussion about testing hall sensors that was not "LR big block specific" has been moved to here:

"Testing Hall Sensors"
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=83802&p=1224940#p1224940

 

[LightningRods]

The rotation of the motor can most definitely be reversed by changing the sequence of hall and phase wires. I do it all of the time. All of my mid mount drives have the motor output on the right instead of the left and rotate clockwise instead of counter-clockwise.

This is on Lyen/Infineon controllers and may not apply to other controllers.

Counter-Clockwise (typical)
Halls
motor controller
G B
B G
Y Y
Phases
motor controller
G B
B G
Y Y

Clockwise (reverse)
Halls
motor controller
G G
B B
Y Y
Phases
motor controller
Y B
G Y
B G

 

[John Bozi]

X, what were you doing exactly when the chain snapped? I would take a guess, suspension was being activated over bumps uphill. In my videos the hub motor boys keep getting away from me because I shy away from using power over something rough or humpy. When all the bits back there are all dancing around it's best to wait to pass if possible. Most my fails are uphill rough. Where you need the power and the dance. Still that bolt is awesome and mine doesn't touch the chains unless they jump. I can hear it do its thing and seriously recommend the top bolt or similar to all mid drive users.
I tried finding my post about halls and phases but looks like Mike beat me to it.

SM, Thanks.

Cheeky Bloke, inspired me to get the primary shroud cracking..... pedal strike is the limiting factor on the primary chain. This is not just a mud / bash guard, its more importantly to protect disc brakes and all my clothing and spend less time in the shower after each ride from lube spatter. The primary particularly sounded more zippy instead of crunchy in my test run with MC lube.... still getting around the edges unfortunately....

The HLD motor has 3 unused holes at M6 1mm thread and on an unused bar two holes m5(I think) which I just tapped to M6 for one and will drill a new position for the other end.

Has anyone else got something like this designed? Would love some pics before I continue for the back and front.... if I do the front at all with .00001mm of pedal strike clearance.

Happy biking fellas!

 

[Mammalian04]

Happy biking fellas!

Nice. Any ill effects you anticipate from enclosing it completely? Maybe a lightweight plastic cover. Maybe it could cut down on the splatter making its way around the edges too...

 

[John Bozi]

weight is an ill effect already, this thick alu weighs a bit.
Looks, I can't help think of those gasser bikes with mufflers.

Sound, would be great completely closed and complete dust build up since dust is more of a cloud. As it stands now the sound is more of an amplifier sideways.

I really don't think it can be totally enclosed. It also needs an easy way to open, inspect and relube. I didn't enclose the bottom because it is a one piece currently that needs to be stretched slightly to get around the lot of installing....

I would have made this thing smaller depending on the holes already present though, and also I wanted the ability to poke my fingers in there (power off) to be able to wipe a rag around the chain to wipe of build up. And have enough space to loosen the bolts for movement.
I did do a quicker completely circular version out of an unfolded stip which was too short, if it had been longer I might have made it that way (just using 4 L shapes for the bolts.)

Most importantly I need a way to block out direct front wheel kick up first from the back.



(cheeky bloke is welding his cracks up) I am not sure I will join it to the js holding section yet.

 

[izeman]

I think this would be the ideal project for someone with a 3D printer.


Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro

 

[xnoitulos]

X, what were you doing exactly when the chain snapped?

Nothing crazy, was just pulling away from a red light, smooth road, straight chain line. Was thinking maybe the chain got damaged when testing out the 120A controller, and then snapped after I put everything back

This is not just a mud / bash guard, its more importantly to protect disc brakes and all my clothing and spend less time in the shower after each ride from lube spatter.

Yes! I try to keep all 3 chains cleaned and lubed. The primary reduction is perfectly inline with both rotors. I hang rags over both brakes when applying lube, and make sure to "release" any extra by running motor at full speed. Wax lube helps stay attached after the carrier dries.

Was able to fool around with the phase and hall wires on the Luna Monster Cyclone XL controller and got it rotating the correct direction! Only had to try 18 combinations.

Just to show scale..


Having some issues with the CA cause it can only go up to 99.9Amps. Changed the throttle output type to Amp control and seemed to get better. Still pretty crazy with so much power on tap. Could lean way over the handlebars and still bring the front wheel up. As you can imagine, snapped the chain within minues (it was pretty beat up already with a couple connecting links, and dragged across asphalt after breaking). Also, freehub body on this Sun Ringle Abbah Lawwill rear hub is also beat up, and Sun no longer supporting this older hub, so no replacement body around (for 12mm TA). Looking to build this bad boy up...

View attachment 3


:lol:

View attachment 1
Just need to figure out this final drive chain situation...

 

[LightningRods]

Do you feel like you need multiple gears with this much power and this many rpm to work with? If you can get by with a single speed chain you can pretty much immediately eliminate your driveline problems.

 

[John Bozi]

I can't wait at all to see your high power experiments. Maybe your on road riding will be more power friendly.

Amazingly since the bolt I have had no front problems but am continuing to get serious rear problems.

It's kind of funny talking about having a perfect chain line because the more power I pull the more the chain line goes out. The swing arm side ways movement is very serious. I wonder how X's will be at 100+a. At 3kw my bb starts clicking, as teeth start getting out of line and the chain starts wanting to jump my sandwich guard. On road 2kw is smoothe as buttons, perfect to climb my hills.

Off road about an hour ago, I just broke a rear sprocket tooth clean off (which is a front dh chainring) and then tried riding it back and broke my bmx kmc single speed chain.



Sweet walk of shame.

I think I need another bolt or two for the rear especially for uphill jumps where gravity is in reverse and the chain likes to party.

 

[xnoitulos]

I just broke a rear sprocket tooth clean off

Yeap! Did that! On the 19 or 21 tooth. Photo coming.

Do you feel like you need multiple gears with this much power and this many rpm to work with? If you can get by with a single speed chain you can pretty much immediately eliminate your driveline problems.

After the chain snapped, I put it all away and met my friends at the bar. The question on my mind was this: What's better? A 3000W mid drive with an entire set of gear ratios, or a 6000W mid drive with one gear?

I guess I'll have to play around with it to know. I'm still working on my ultimate chain specification post, but I promise it won't disappoint. (Cut to chase, Bozi I see the chain you're using is only double peened, not even quad peened and certainly short of circumferential peening). More to come...

 

[John Bozi]

(Cut to chase, Bozi I see the chain you're using is only double peened, not even quad peened and certainly short of circumferential peening). More to come...

I didn't expect the chain to do to well with a missing tooth.
While it worked for a few ah....
[youtube]F6HItijn9F0[/youtube]

 

[izeman]

At 3kw my bb starts clicking, as teeth start getting out of line and the chain starts wanting to jump my sandwich guard. On road 2kw is smoothe as buttons, perfect to climb my hills.

i agree. i personally found my bike's sweet spot at 2.000W. it's still reasonably fast and strong. it does almost 60km/h on the flat, flies up almost all hills on rough roads with 35-40km/h, and all components hold up, and the motor won't overheat (fyi: i'm not riding an LR kit, but the mac middrive). but i think my observations are not limited to any special mid-drive.

 

[LightningRods]

One of the reasons that mid drives are so much more interesting to me than hub motors is that there is a lot to play with. Multiple speeds, higher or lower gearing, combining pedal and motor power, running them parallel, all of this makes it possible to make a mid drive what you want it to be.

If you want a bike that you can jump on and pedal at 30 mph for 30 miles the 2000 watt bike with gears is better for that activity. If you want a bike that you can take down to the local high school track and do sideways speedway slides for 20 minutes, a 5000 watt single speed is going to be so much more fun. You can't say that a screwdriver is a better tool than a hammer. It's just a better tool for driving in a screw.

 

[Föppel]

some days ago, i finished the installation of the 15mm Axle.
I was very accurate to set the new Jackshaft, measured everything with the vernier caliper several times, screw up the setscrews, measured aigain and again...

then, welded the jackshaft-setrings (?) to the sheets, so nothing can move.



...tightened the lockrings quite hard, then made 2 weldpoints per side.
i did this because i dont want to change my gearing anymore, also i think it will be good if i decide to go higher in Power.

One of the reasons that mid drives are so much more interesting to me than hub motors is that there is a lot to play with. Multiple speeds, higher or lower gearing, combining pedal and motor power, running them parallel, all of this makes it possible to make a mid drive what you want it to be.

Yeah, thats what i like the most! All the stuff i was trying with the kit so far, wouldnt be possible on an other "platform". Also if you messed up with your gearing calculation, you can order an other sprocket and everything is fine

lucky accident, i just focused on setting the Jackshaft right, so the Beltside runs nice.
i have a chaintensioner for the 219 Chain, so i didnt care about a lacking 219 chain...



219 Chain is nice tensioned, will see if the tensioner is wasted weight now.
Also should be easy to see if something moves, 219 chaintension will tell...


some days ago, first testride, everything runs smooth.

i started to run at 2,5kw, bashed her hard on the trails, did a lot of hillclimbes, everything holds up nice, so next ride i will be around 3.2 kw again.

On the last ride, we was riding my LR-Bike and the LMX, both on more or less comparable speedlevel, it was much fun to get up that hills

you cant really compare the two bikes, there are so many diferences, but clearly, the LMX is much more controllable at higher speeds in ruff terrain. The LR-Bike on the other side is much lighter, and more playful to ride, do to weight and closer wheelbase.

After i get told that wd40 isnt good for the 219 Chain, i try foliage now, but still mix it with a little bit of WD40

 

[LightningRods]

Great post Foppel! Thanks for the updates.

 

[sather]

My 12t sprocket is shot and the bike is down.
Does anyone have a source for an 18t 219 driver with a 12mm bore? Or a 12mm adaptor and 18t?

 

[LightningRods]

I made one for you yesterday after you wrote and asked for one. It's ready to ship.

 

[steveo]

i finally got my parts in

8sx connex chain by wippermann
chain ring bolts
32 tooth narrow wide chain ring

it seems the narrow wide chain ring does not fit nice with the wippermann chain..

is it the chainring you guys think or the chain?

do i need to file down the "wide teeth" on the chain ring to make this work correctly? or will it eventually wear in :s...or did i make an error and should of ordered a "narrow" chain ring


thanks
-steveo

 

[LightningRods]

This looks like a 3/32" chain trying to fit onto a 1/8" sprocket.