LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

I can't recommend the combination highly enough. I've been riding the Q76R all over for the past few weeks and have been loving it! I've ordered a 2 speed planetary chainwheel from PowerVelocity that will allow me to pedal with the motor up to 40 mph. I'll also be adding PAS with a Grin Tech dial pot throttle that will let me vary the power that the motor puts out through PAS. It's a little dial on the left handlebar that you can work with your thumb. I think this setup is going to be awesome.

I'm going to finish out this busy season and then get some new motors in. I have the motors picked out, have contacted the supplier, all I need is the time to do some development work. The 15kw motor is the same size as the Big Block and will for sure fit. I built everything with this upgrade in mind. It's all plenty stout. People run 15kw hub motors in these frames so it should be possible. It seems like a scary amount of power but I'm sure I'll adjust in no time and be planning on how to get even more.

You can order a Q76R directly from Qulbix: https://www.qulbix.com/ordering-shipping They ship globally.

 

[daygr]

I can't recommend the combination highly enough. I've been riding the Q76R all over for the past few weeks and have been loving it! I've ordered a 2 speed planetary chainwheel from PowerVelocity that will allow me to pedal with the motor up to 40 mph. I'll also be adding PAS with a Grin Tech dial pot throttle that will let me vary the power that the motor puts out through PAS. It's a little dial on the left handlebar that you can work with your thumb. I think this setup is going to be awesome.

I'm going to finish out this busy season and then get some new motors in. I have the motors picked out, have contacted the supplier, all I need is the time to do some development work. The 15kw motor is the same size as the Big Block and will for sure fit. I built everything with this upgrade in mind. It's all plenty stout. People run 15kw hub motors in these frames so it should be possible. It seems like a scary amount of power but I'm sure I'll adjust in no time and be planning on how to get even more.

You can order a Q76R directly from Qulbix: https://www.qulbix.com/ordering-shipping They ship globally.

Going to place an order this week, and then I'll need a quote from you! I think I'll also take a crack at building a battery for the frame, though it does require some up front purchases. I think it will pay for itself in the long run as I plan to stick with ebikes.

I see also that the frame is just a frame- any recommendations on where to get a decent fork and shock? Also, are you using the controller you sell on your site, or do you have another recommendation for that?

 

[LightningRods]

Qulbix will sell you a complete bike. Depending on how flush you feel they also sell a "roller" bike that is supposed to be pretty much ready to go. They're pretty agreeable. They'll sell you the parts you want, basically. Their prices are good if not the absolute lowest. EM3EV has a lot of components that will fit the Qulbix frames or the "EEB" (Enduro Electric Bike). https://em3ev.com/shop/?prod_cat_=bicycle-components-and-parts I'm working on a swingarm drive for the EEB now. So you can choose which one you want. I won't state a preference because I have friends selling both frames. Either one is going to make a great e-bike.

I have a couple of swingarm drives available right now. I'll have more available in a couple of weeks.

 

[daygr]

The EEB looks great, but it's the 140mm width and the heavier 10kgs... ugh, decisions. It'd save quite a bit of dosh over the Qulbix.

You have swingarm kits that will fit the EEB now? Maybe I'll do a build with the EEB and if I fall in love, which I don't doubt I will, transfer it to a 76r at some point in the future. I wish they made the EEB in the 76mm format.

I saw their complete bikes, and they look wonderful, but especially after excise and import taxes it's just way too much to justify. Plus, I enjoy the build process

Edit: The EEB is out of stock, sent a message to em3ev asking if they are going to get more, and otherwise am hunting for a frame.

Final edit: Wow, I'm silly. I was completing misunderstanding the Ex Tax prices on the Qulbix frames, which had made them appear to be about twice what they actually cost. When I realized my mistake, I pretty much instantly purchased one. Qulbix 76r ordered... Mike, PM sent about the swingarm kit.

 

[everyman07]

I've been reading your latest posts and your point about the inefficiency of gearing down a motor so that we can pedal with it only to overdrive it later hit home.

I too want to pedal because it's not just about riding for me. I want the health benefits of the exercise.

Do we need to have pedaling be part of the drive train/powering the bike? Sure, it is important in order to get the bike home if the battery is dead but beyond that why couldn't pedaling serve another purpose like generating juice. The GM hybrid uses this approach instead of the gas engine powering the car when the batteries get low it recharges the batteries.

I'm guessing the problem would be finding a motor small enough to be driven comfortably by human power but large enough to generate sufficient power to add enough charge to make a difference and to offset the weight penalty of having a second motor. Also would the controllers that are regen capable be able to take juice in from the generating motor while powering the drive motor at the same time?

Not being an electrical engineer, there may be other problems I'm not thinking of but if a dual system like this could be done, I'd buy one.

 

[daygr]

I've been reading your latest posts and your point about the inefficiency of gearing down a motor so that we can pedal with it only to overdrive it later hit home.

I too want to pedal because it's not just about riding for me. I want the health benefits of the exercise.

Do we need to have pedaling be part of the drive train/powering the bike? Sure, it is important in order to get the bike home if the battery is dead but beyond that why couldn't pedaling serve another purpose like generating juice. The GM hybrid uses this approach instead of the gas engine powering the car when the batteries get low it recharges the batteries.

I'm guessing the problem would be finding a motor small enough to be driven comfortably by human power but large enough to generate sufficient power to add enough charge to make a difference and to offset the weight penalty of having a second motor. Also would the controllers that are regen capable be able to take juice in from the generating motor while powering the drive motor at the same time?

Not being an electrical engineer, there may be other problems I'm not thinking of but if a dual system like this could be done, I'd buy one.

It's a neat idea, but as far as I know wouldn't work. Regenerative motors are direct drive and would be impractical to install in a bicycle, and building what is essentially an alternator would be pretty inefficient... http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2011/05/bike-powered-electricity-generators.html

That said... perhaps a freewheel that turns the stator, which the pedal drivetrain powers (completely independently of the rear wheel....) eh...

 

[LightningRods]

I like your thinking and with whatever efficiency losses that are involved it would work. Watts of human physical energy would be converted to electricity and stored. The upside would be that the exercise level could be controlled by regen software. You could work your tail off on the flat and level if you wanted. Effort would be essentially removed from what the bike is doing. The downside would be the weight, complexity and expense of the generator. People might also miss the feeling of being mechanically connected to the work being done. But you could exert yourself plenty and it would add some factor of range.

The solution that I chose for the dilemma of connecting a 3000 rpm motor to a 100 rpm human was to put the motor and it's reduction after the chainwheel. That way the motor can be reduced 8:1, the pedal power overdriven about 3.25:1, and the two joined at a jackshaft which then drives the rear wheel. You can further reduce the gearing if you want. I chose to run 1:1. Obviously this requires a cruiser or a cargo bike that has room between the chainwheel and rear wheel. This won't work on a cramped conventional bicycle.

Here is an illustration of the two layouts. The top is the mid bike drive with the motor after the chainwheel, the bottom is a more typical chainwheel driving mid drive.

 

[Remus]

Hello guys,

I've decided to put together ebike, I still have all my LR parts. Project bike looks to be a Giant XTC-3

 

[LightningRods]

Very cool that you're getting a project started. Let me know if I can help. There have been significant upgrades if your drive is two years old.

 

[KarateDoc]

I will be starting a new 1st time project for me. Been talking to Mike and going with a single drive small block on a Santa Cruz Bullit. Em3ev 50v-7P battery and Cycle Analyst V3. Everything has been ordered and now waiting for the parts. Pics of the build will coming soon.

 

[LightningRods]

I love seeing my drives on quality bikes like Santa Cruz. This is going to be another beautiful build. I have all of the parts in stock and should have this drive done this week.

 

[Ddt]

Hello lightningrod

Do you have more info about your test 15kw motor? Its a outrunner?
Do you have the efficency of your big block motor? Its look like the cyclone 1950w-3000w and he claim 97% efficency.

 

[LightningRods]

The test motor is an outrunner. It has a kv of 50. It's brushless and has hall sensors. It weighs 6.25 lbs.

The Cyclone 3000 is similar in size and output to my Small Block motor, not the Big Block. I underrated the Big Block at 3000 watts at 50v. Actual power is 4000 watts at 50v and 6,720 watts at 84v.

Only 97% efficiency? I would have expected a claim more in the range of 120%.

 

[gman1971]

The generator idea is nice, also allows for solar panels too, so you can tack some panels and get a few watts of free energy out of the Sun... but I agree that the mechanical disconnect might be weird, and then you lose the ability to pedal if the motor fails... the other idea seems like a better alternative.

G.

 

[Ddt]

Hello

-The 15kw outrunner are this http://alienpowersystem.com/product-category/brushless-motors/150120-outrunner-motor-150mm/ ?
Im ever worry about the rc motor about the fragile frame and its hard have detail about it(rpm max,nominal rpm/efficency,efficency diagram,....).do you have more info about your test motor?
-The 20080 look like more stronger frame but are expensive

-Do you have more info about your big block motor(stator laminatio mm,max efficency,best rpm/efficency,draw or the big block,..)?

Thank you

 

[LightningRods]

I've been running around on my Qulbix 76R for over a month with the swing arm drive on it. It's been a blast! The drive is very quiet due to so few moving parts. I've had zero trouble with it. The one thing that I have found is that the 44t chainring and 16t ACS rear freewheel cog only allow pedaling up to 18 mph or so. Since the motor will do 45 mph I'd like more pedaling speed. Adding a rear derailleur would require dishing the spoking of the rear wheel. I also don't need 8 pedaling gears with this much power.

PowerVelocity, one of my sources for controllers along with Edward Lyen, suggested an ATS Speed Drive.

This chainwheel planetary gearbox has two gears, 1:1 and 2.5:1. My 18 mph speed in direct drive gets overdriven up to 45 mph! Perfect for pedaling with the motor. So what these two gears amount to is pedaling at low speeds or without the motor, and pedaling at speed with the motor. Cruising at 35-40 mph with this gearing is going to be really relaxed and pleasant. I'll be able to put out as much or as little effort as I want.

Here's a short video showing how the Speed Drive works:

https://www.facebook.com/Lightning-Rods-613804531978401/

In addition to the Qulbix 76R and 140R frames I'm also coming out with a swing arm drive for the popular EEB or Enduro Electric Bike. The standard swing arm on the Enduro has vertical drop outs for hub motors. I've designed weld on extensions that provide a horizontal dropout plus a 165mm width that will allow fitment of the same billet hub that I have on my Qulbix builds. The horizontal dropout is currently mocked up in MDF to check fit and alignment of the hub. The finished piece will be steel, the same as the swing arm.

The Enduro frame is available at both PowerVelocity http://powervelocity.com/index.php and EM3EV https://em3ev.com. EM3EV has the best batteries in the industry and they are great people to deal with.

 

[ScooterMan101]

That ATS , Speed Drive looks interesting
However I have a few questions

1) Where is the Freewheel ? I thought mid drive's had/have a freewheel on the crankset ?

2) Where are the threads to put it into a bike with BSA threads ? It looks like in the picture a press fit BB ?

3) I thought that the the Industry is moving over to Direct Mount Cranksets ?


Like the Race Face Cinch, or the Sram Direct Drive , E*thirteen , ... or what looks to be a better design the FSA Direct Mount Crankset .
( With the FSA you can put washers on either side of the Chainring / Chainwheel , in order to dial in a better chain line )

 

[zlagger]

I have one of the Enduro frames from EM3. I would love to get this setup for that frame. Separate chains for motor and pedal input is really the best idea I have seen with mid-drive systems in a while. What would a full build of parts cost?

I've been running around on my Qulbix 76R for over a month with the swing arm drive on it. It's been a blast! The drive is very quiet due to so few moving parts. I've had zero trouble with it. The one thing that I have found is that the 44t chainring and 16t ACS rear freewheel cog only allow pedaling up to 18 mph or so. Since the motor will do 45 mph I'd like more pedaling speed. Adding a rear derailleur would require dishing the spoking of the rear wheel. I also don't need 8 pedaling gears with this much power.

PowerVelocity, one of my sources for controllers along with Edward Lyen, suggested an ATS Speed Drive.

This chainwheel planetary gearbox has two gears, 1:1 and 2.5:1. My 18 mph speed in direct drive gets overdriven up to 45 mph! Perfect for pedaling with the motor. So what these two gears amount to is pedaling at low speeds or without the motor, and pedaling at speed with the motor. Cruising at 35-40 mph with this gearing is going to be really relaxed and pleasant. I'll be able to put out as much or as little effort as I want.

Here's a short video showing how the Speed Drive works:

https://www.facebook.com/Lightning-Rods-613804531978401/

In addition to the Qulbix 76R and 140R frames I'm also coming out with a swing arm drive for the popular EEB or Enduro Electric Bike. The standard swing arm on the Enduro has vertical drop outs for hub motors. I've designed weld on extensions that provide a horizontal dropout plus a 165mm width that will allow fitment of the same billet hub that I have on my Qulbix builds. The horizontal dropout is currently mocked up in MDF to check fit and alignment of the hub. The finished piece will be steel, the same as the swing arm.

The Enduro frame is available at both PowerVelocity http://powervelocity.com/index.php and EM3EV https://em3ev.com. EM3EV has the best batteries in the industry and they are great people to deal with.

 

[LightningRods]

Hey ScooterMan,

1- Most mid drives run through the chainwheel. They must have a freewheel in the chainwheel or else you would get beaten to death by the pedals if the motor speed overran your pedaling speed. I wanted to run a low tooth count 219 driver sprocket to get decent reduction in one stage. That eliminates a freewheel sprocket on the motor. Also by eliminating the freewheel from the final drive it has one less fragile part to break and we get regenerative braking. I decided it was a good trade off.

2- There are BSA threads on the left side of the Speed Drive. There are also beveled "cones" at each end of the BB. Part of the install of the design of BB is that you have to chamfer a bevel into the ends of the BB shell on the frame. When you tighten the BB cup on the left it sucks the two cones into the chamfers and it keeps the BB from counter rotating. I haven't played with this enough to understand why they did it this way. The unit was designed by German engineers so I figure that they may have a clue.

3- The bike industry is doing a lot of things to bikes that are not good from our perspective. Press fit BBs are a major problem for chainwheel mid drives. I'm not sure how the direct mount chainwheels will affect things. Like the press fits some people seem to love them, others seem to hate them. Bicycle manufacturers are changing things just to change them, trying to distance themselves from the Walmart bikes. A lot of it is unnecessary.

 

[LightningRods]

I have one of the Enduro frames from EM3. I would love to get this setup for that frame. Separate chains for motor and pedal input is really the best idea I have seen with mid-drive systems in a while. What would a full build of parts cost?

Hey zlagger-
I'm glad that you're interested in the swing arm drive. Once I saw that it will fit the Enduro I stepped up production on the parts. It's great that I was able to get the 165mm hub to fit the Enduro. It's a nice part and my machinist has promised to bring the price way down if we start ordering in larger quantities.

The drive unit with mounting brackets, motor, 219 drive sprocket and sprocket guard is $495. By the time you've bought the hub, sprocket, chain, brake caliper mount and other little bits you're into it for about $900. This price will come down some as the volume increases. Because of the improving economy I'm finding parts vendors to be a lot less willing to make low volume parts. If they are willing to do it they price gouge.

Matt Shumaker has been building left hand drive mid drives for a long time. They require a fairly powerful motor to work well. It is a good idea, especially if you like to keep things simple.

 

[zlagger]

Ok great! A few more questions for you...
Have you run this motor with the Adaptto controller? I'm asking because the bike has that controller presently?

I am a firmly believer in overbuilding things and making sure that the craftsmanship is done right. With that said I would be most interested in having you do as much of a turn-key build as possible. I can remove the swing-arm, and ship it to you.

Are you having to reduce wheel diameter to fit this drive on the swing-arm? Presently the bike has a 24" front wheel and a 17" x 3" rear moto tire/rim. So a reduced size would be doable.

Lastly can I get this rear hub laced into a rim of your choice? Moto rim? I don't have a reliable wheel builder in my area. Again, for me, having a craftsman build and select good quality components is always ideal. No-one knows the proper way to do this system like you do. So why have us muck it up with our novice attempts, right?

Hey zlagger-
I'm glad that you're interested in the swing arm drive. Once I saw that it will fit the Enduro I stepped up production on the parts. It's great that I was able to get the 165mm hub to fit the Enduro. It's a nice part and my machinist has promised to bring the price way down if we start ordering in larger quantities.

The drive unit with mounting brackets, motor, 219 drive sprocket and sprocket guard is $495. By the time you've bought the hub, sprocket, chain, brake caliper mount and other little bits you're into it for about $900. This price will come down some as the volume increases. Because of the improving economy I'm finding parts vendors to be a lot less willing to make low volume parts. If they are willing to do it they price gouge.

Matt Shumaker has been building left hand drive mid drives for a long time. They require a fairly powerful motor to work well. It is a good idea, especially if you like to keep things simple.

 

[LightningRods]

Unfortunately I have not heard of anyone successfully getting the Adaptto controller to work with my motors. I use the PowerVelocity sine wave controllers. They're plug and play and have Bluetooth programming through an Android or iPhone. A smart phone dashboard will be available soon.

The swing arm will ship well as a completed unit so no problem sending it up from Santa Cruz. I can even get the arm powder coated for you once it's welded.

The horizontal dropout extensions add about 2" to the length of the Enduro swing arm. A 26" wheel fits in the stock location so you should be able to fit at least a 19"x3.50". Because the wheel is moving away from the narrow front section of the swingarm we also have more width inside. I measured just a hair over 4" at 13" back from the new axle location.

I have a good wheel builder here but he won't lace my hub to motorcycle rims. I used a 24"x3" on my own build that has bicycle gauge spoke holes in the rim. I have a couple of customers in Texas who have successfully laced my hub to 19" rims. I can check with them and see if their wheel builders could help you with a motorcycle rim. I can get bicycle rims laced to my hub no problem. The hub does have 1/8" spoke holes in the flanges so you should be able to use an 11 gauge spoke.

 

[ScooterMan101]

Hi Mike,

Well as you know I have a real nice Santa Cruz Frame, I always have to sell one thing to get another, and sometime in the future I would sell the Frame to help pay for a more E-Bike Specific Frame, I am not going to Bevel the Frame, so that makes the Speed Drive not usable on my bike.

In regards to new designs in the Bike Industry, well I have recently found out that Specialized is going away from the BB30 Bottom Bracket Shells,
They are going back to threaded BSA on many/most of their bikes,

However, and this is important, much to my " initial " disappointment of using more and more ... Direct Mount Cranks,
( because I can buy the few years old but still new Shimano Hollowtec II Cranks and BB's at Great / Low prices )

The more Research I do on Direct Mount Cranks , the More I like them.

I have just a couple of days bought a couple of Well Used , Race Face Direct Mount Cranksets.
And I can tell you this is a welcome change to the 2 piece and the old Square Taper Bottom Bracket Cartridges and Crankarms.

This is one " Improvement " that you Will come to welcome.

Now that I have taken one apart it is very clear to me how we in the E-Bike world can use Direct Mount Cranksets to our advantage.

The very obvious one to anyone wanting a Mid-Drive and having a freewheel on the crank ( and yes I want a freewheel in on the Crankset more than a planetary gear crankset )

some good advantages are adjustable chainlines , very easy chainring changes, but most importantly interchangeable Spindles, with interchangeable Spindles custom made Spindles for E-Bikes are now a improvement because we can use the rest of the Direct Mount Crankset and Chainrings , but have spindles that have the groves to hold a Freewheel and perhaps two chainrings as well, by just making the Spindle a few mm's longer and the splines that hold the chainrings/and for us a Freewheel , a little deeper into the Spindle .

By just making custom Spindles and using two chainrings , you/we have a much more simple system than that Speed Drive .
And
Much Lighter in weight as well, and probably much more durable too.

>

Hey ScooterMan,

1- Most mid drives run through the chainwheel. They must have a freewheel in the chainwheel or else you would get beaten to death by the pedals if the motor speed overran your pedaling speed. I wanted to run a low tooth count 219 driver sprocket to get decent reduction in one stage. That eliminates a freewheel sprocket on the motor. Also by eliminating the freewheel from the final drive it has one less fragile part to break and we get regenerative braking. I decided it was a good trade off.

2- There are BSA threads on the left side of the Speed Drive. There are also beveled "cones" at each end of the BB. Part of the install of the design of BB is that you have to chamfer a bevel into the ends of the BB shell on the frame. When you tighten the BB cup on the left it sucks the two cones into the chamfers and it keeps the BB from counter rotating. I haven't played with this enough to understand why they did it this way. The unit was designed by German engineers so I figure that they may have a clue.

3- The bike industry is doing a lot of things to bikes that are not good from our perspective. Press fit BBs are a major problem for chainwheel mid drives. I'm not sure how the direct mount chainwheels will affect things. Like the press fits some people seem to love them, others seem to hate them. Bicycle manufacturers are changing things just to change them, trying to distance themselves from the Walmart bikes. A lot of it is unnecessary.

 

[notger]

Unfortunately I have not heard of anyone successfully getting the Adaptto controller to work with my motors.

I did with the original gng small Block from the very beginning, never tried "Your small Block" but technically ther eis no difference.

I did post some stuff in this thread i think or in the adaptto owners thread. not sure

 

[LightningRods]

Your Santa Cruz is a completely different situation than the Qulbix and EEB. It's not even possible to run a front derailleur on those sheet metal frame bikes. There are other chain line issues as well which I won't go into. The Speed Drive or Schlumpf or Patterson is a great solution for the sheet metal bikes. I'm sure I said somewhere in this thread that they won't work with the chainwheel drive that a bike like your Santa Cruz would need. Two different worlds.

I don't know much about the direct mount sprockets. I'm particularly interested in what you were saying about spindles because that is a major issue with chainwheel mid drives. I'll dig into them some more and see what I can learn. I'm glad to hear that manufacturers are moving away from press fit. Any time you see adapters to convert press fit bikes back to BSA thread you know that something is up.

I don't sell the planetary chainwheels and don't plan to. I'm excited about it for my particular application and brought it up here in case anyone else might find it interesting.