TheBeastie
1 MW
Who else had a catastrophic fire from a BC168 charger? Do you believe the blame for a fire should be aimed at the charger?dnmun said:
Lithium Battery Catastrophic Events - Summary Thread
- Thread starter bigmoose
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dnmun
1 PW
no, shorts are inevitable when there are so many cycles of handling the JST plugs to plug the charger in and out each time so the sense wires are gonna be damaged by the user and not the charger.
the charger has internal controls that prevent it from overcharging so we know it is not caused by overcharging so it is because of shorted sense wires.
the charger has internal controls that prevent it from overcharging so we know it is not caused by overcharging so it is because of shorted sense wires.
Wishes
1 kW
TheBeastie said:
Anything is always possible, but If lipo fires while charging were caused by faulty chargers, then there would be lots of manufacturer's being sued. Lipo fires during charging are usually always caused by fault battery wiring and faulty connectors via defects or as dmnum mentioned, over wear and tear of the connectors. Or when people bulk charge too many batteries at once and it turns out 1 of the cells is out of whack, but the chargers don't see the single cell out of whack when you have many batteries connected in parallel to be bulk charged.
I have been member of a few RC clubs for many, many years. We been using lipo's since they came out for RC applications. And the only incident I ever heard of that can be blamed to a charger, was 1 member of my plane RC club, who had a significant fire during lipo charging that was actually caused by a faulty charger, and his insurance company got the manufacturer to recognized the firmware bug, and they paid for all the damages done to the house. There was $120k of damage. The member is still an active member of the club, i'll try to find out what the brand of the charger was.
Wishes
melodious
100 kW
Good luck with this endeaver if it is to put blame on the company. As much as I want to recompensate the victim, the application to what the charger was used for, in this case, a huge pack meant for an Ebike. Do these RC chargers have specific written applications for these things to be used on (i.e. "model sized" RC cars, planes, helis, toys, etc.)?Wishes said:
dnmun said:
The pack was almost new ~20 cycles.
The connectors where looking like new.
There was only 1 6s pack on the charger no custom wires.
Tha pack was used for my model plane.
The original breakoutboard was used.
If it was a short it have to be in the charger.
I now i was stupid charging at night but post this as warning
for peolpe not get cmfertable charging lipo.
i charge now in the fireplace if it burns no problem.
Only have lipo for my planes now. All bike batterys are samsung packs from em3ev.com
dnmun
1 PW
i do not believe that the cause was because of a short inside the charger.
rather than say you should charge in the fireplace, you should recommend people not use these BC168 chargers.
the sense wires are not made to handle 8A of current for the length of time it takes to charge a pack.
you have no idea how many strands of the sense wire were making contact inside the shell of the lipo pack or in the sense wire plug so not any way to know the heating of the sense wire.
when one sense wire melts through the insulation enuff to melt and short to the next sense wire then that heat would melt the other sense wires and all of them would then be conducting the entire stored charge into the sense wires and that should be enuff to catch the plastic on fire imo.
i consider these BC168 to be the highest risk of fire of all the balancing chargers. we do not know how the the other RC guy was able to start the fire that burned his house and garage but he was using the hyperion, not the BC168.
rather than say you should charge in the fireplace, you should recommend people not use these BC168 chargers.
the sense wires are not made to handle 8A of current for the length of time it takes to charge a pack.
you have no idea how many strands of the sense wire were making contact inside the shell of the lipo pack or in the sense wire plug so not any way to know the heating of the sense wire.
when one sense wire melts through the insulation enuff to melt and short to the next sense wire then that heat would melt the other sense wires and all of them would then be conducting the entire stored charge into the sense wires and that should be enuff to catch the plastic on fire imo.
i consider these BC168 to be the highest risk of fire of all the balancing chargers. we do not know how the the other RC guy was able to start the fire that burned his house and garage but he was using the hyperion, not the BC168.
Rodney64
100 kW
Another house that burnt down here in Perth when model plane batteries we're be charged in the garage.
http://www.inmycommunity.com.au/news-and-views/local-news/Family-caught-off-guard-as-fire-rages-through-garage/7661974/
http://www.inmycommunity.com.au/news-and-views/local-news/Family-caught-off-guard-as-fire-rages-through-garage/7661974/
TheBeastie
1 MW
Hmm I notice the kids have kind of smiles on their faces so the intuition of the scene suggests the insurance is going to cover the lot. No reason they shouldn't be fully compensated.Rodney64 said:
I noticed insurance companies are very friendly and say 'we will look after you' etc all the way up till pay day where you get a very cold sounding person at the end of the line, there the ones who actually dish out final payment.
I was going to buy some more HK lipo the other day but I noticed an alarming lack of stock, alot of stuff on back order, then I realized its school holidays at the moment so all the kids are out there suckin up all the lipos.
Chargers can short inside and they frequently do. My absolutely new iCharger 3010 shorted out internally near end of charge, while charging 36V lead acid battery. In couple of seconds flames were over two feet high and continued even after power supply was disconnected. Battery was fueling the fire inside charger. Knowing working principle of those chargers, it is very easy to get ibternql short.
I was lucky that it happened just the moment I was walking around and cought it in time. HK refunded for the charger, but I could have lost everything.
Two things to protect yourself: a diode and fuse between battery and charger. Sadly this is almost never used in DIY builds.
I was lucky that it happened just the moment I was walking around and cought it in time. HK refunded for the charger, but I could have lost everything.
Two things to protect yourself: a diode and fuse between battery and charger. Sadly this is almost never used in DIY builds.
cal3thousand said:Wishes said:I had a little issue with Lipo's. I use 4 x 6s HK lipo packs in series. I use the 5.5mm bullet connectors they come with to connect them in series.
A few days ago I was getting ready to go for a ride and preparing my battery pack in my garage. i had my youngest daughter contantly trying to talk to me while I was connecting the batteries up, then my wife came into the garage and started also talking to me, all that got me distracted, I was not careful and ended up connecting the last positive and negative leads of my 24s lipo pack.....together. Shorting 100 volts of fully charged 25 C lipo's....makes a big big spark.
Cost me a few fingernails. This is my first incident with Lipo's since I started using them 3 years ago for RC applications. Normally I am quite careful. It takes but a moment of distraction to have an accident.
Wishes
Woah! That' the best KFF I've seen yet!Glad you're OK... I'm guess those bullets just vaporized?
Iv taken to leaving my whole loom connected to the bike now and just unplugging each pack from the loom, that way I know there is only one way it can all go.
TheBeastie
1 MW
Well we are getting to the end of the summer for the northern hemisphere, users start to get more reckless and stick their packs on bulk charge and nip up to the local store or go for a quick sleep, knowing that their trusty lipo packs have been performing great all summer without issue etc.
Now its perfect time to strike!
If we don't have a nasty lipo fire to report soon then I guess there isn't going to be any entertaining (yet horrible for the owner) lipo fires to report this year. :|
Now its perfect time to strike!
If we don't have a nasty lipo fire to report soon then I guess there isn't going to be any entertaining (yet horrible for the owner) lipo fires to report this year. :|
dogman dan
1 PW
So far, no indication that this was an RC lithium cobalt bike battery.
http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-house-fire-raises-lithium-battery-issues/27888920
http://www.ktvz.com/news/bend-house-fire-raises-lithium-battery-issues/27888920
dnmun
1 PW
he said 5 fires caused by ebike batteries in bend? how come farfle did not know? just this year?
i think it is now only a matter of time that insurance companies will exclude ebikes. this is something i was working to avoid by convincing people to use a BMS to protect their battery but so many people think it is safe to bulk charge with no protection and have no understanding of how a battery can be dead in some cells from over discharging them and then end up overcharging the others. ZapPat lost his house and garage too and the insurance refused to cover it.
i think eventually it will happen to someone else or an apartment building will burn down and then you will never be able to take an electric bike inside a building again. ever.
i think it is now only a matter of time that insurance companies will exclude ebikes. this is something i was working to avoid by convincing people to use a BMS to protect their battery but so many people think it is safe to bulk charge with no protection and have no understanding of how a battery can be dead in some cells from over discharging them and then end up overcharging the others. ZapPat lost his house and garage too and the insurance refused to cover it.
i think eventually it will happen to someone else or an apartment building will burn down and then you will never be able to take an electric bike inside a building again. ever.
dogman dan
1 PW
I was thinking the same thing. 5 ebike fires? But I think the fireman was talking about all lithium fires.
3 days ago in El paso, cell phone charging buried in the couch cushions started a fire. So I think the other 4 must have been something like that.
I just heard a rumor that the bike was hobby king packs..... But I have no info second hand or otherwise how they were being charged.
It sounds from the news story, like they were on a charger while he slept.
3 days ago in El paso, cell phone charging buried in the couch cushions started a fire. So I think the other 4 must have been something like that.
I just heard a rumor that the bike was hobby king packs..... But I have no info second hand or otherwise how they were being charged.
It sounds from the news story, like they were on a charger while he slept.
dnmun
1 PW
the fire boss was saying how they 'blow up' but that has not been our view of how they failed and burned so he is already on another page and when they use terms like 'exploding' then that means it goes into their reports of 'dangerous events' that go into the nether world of bureaucrats and armchair supervisors who will be sending down edicts from on high that will be irrelevant but will certainly exclude bringing an ebike inside a building. explosive is the key word, blow up is close enuff imo.
windtrader
1 kW
Does not matter the semantics nor the process the end is the same: FIRE. If the battery pack is unstable and can catch on fire, then it is a problem, plain and simple. As long as all ebikes sold through the retail chain are solid and well engineered, the percentage remains low for spontaneous fires and likely confined to the crazed DIYers here on ES and similar enclaves. Insurance companies can deny anything and will continue to do so. The very best approach is to assume a fire can start where the bike is stored and ensure the area is fire safe.
I don't see anything in that article that says that. It does say:dnmun said:
but does not say what the batteries were for or from, other than the one in this specific fire. .
How stupid is this? I've been replacing bad lipo cells for over a year now and have been just throwing them under my garage table when replaced. Most are puffed and most you can see where it punctured.
I don't know why I haven't thrown them out, I guess I think I may experiment with them one day.
I heard these lipo cells can't really spontaneous combust anyway, so they probably would have flamed up if they were going to.
I don't know why I haven't thrown them out, I guess I think I may experiment with them one day.
I heard these lipo cells can't really spontaneous combust anyway, so they probably would have flamed up if they were going to.
Offroader said:
I've had some spontaneously puff really bad. If it shorted internally from puffing, it would go off.
If you take one of those dead cells and smack it with a hammer, I bet it will go off. Don't try that indoors!
For a good video, charge it first before smacking and do it at night.
If you have an ammocan that you can modify the way I did mine, I'd love to see an overcharge/fire test of those cells inside it, to see if it would contain it. (I'd do it myself if I had any bad cells but those are gone now, AFAIK).
Doctorbass
100 GW
Remember... empty lithium cells does nothing... partially or fully cells can catch fire.
That's why some people show lipo abused and tortured that dont catch fire. :wink:
Doc
That's why some people show lipo abused and tortured that dont catch fire. :wink:
Doc
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
fechter said:
You cant be serious. smack it with a hammer? I imagine you wouldn't get an explosion but more so a really hot fire that was burninng like one of those old model rocket engines. Maybe you should advise goggles.
What happens inside a battery when it's shorted and allowed to discharge as fast as possible?
If you stick the red wire into the ground would it still discharge or does it require the curcuit within the battery?
Hummina Shadeeba
1 MW
dnmun said:
Everytime I use the ballance wires, which I guess are JST, I feel like I'm really straining when I unplug them. Is that just part of the design?
jonescg
100 MW
Today I had a lithium battery incident that could have been catastrophic, or at least spectacular to watch.
What happened:
I was constructing a 12s 5p battery using my established single-cell method with slotted PCBs. I had loaded all of the cells and bent the tabs over, but hadn't gone any further before I realised I had forgotten to drill a hole for the BMS thermistor. Unthinking, I picked up the dremmel with a 3 mm drill bit and started drilling. At about 90% of the way through I realised I should put something underneath the PCB to stop the trill from sucking through and piercing the cells below. Too late
Then what happened?
Well the cell started to plume out that familiar acrid smoke which is only improved by igniting :lol:. I picked up the jig and took it outside the shed and emptied the contents onto the cement. I managed to isolate about half of the cells from the now flame-throwing cell, but the adjacent cells started to go up after about 30 seconds.
What went wrong?
I forgot to drill the hole first before loading the cells in. Then I got lazy and used a drill instead of an abrasive tip which drills much slower. Even then, I still should have put something below the PCB.
What went right?
The modular arrangement of the pack meant I could isolate the remaining cells from what would otherwise be a box of Roman candles going up. In a built pack this means using flame retardant, non-conductive physical barriers between battery sub-packs. Being able to rapidly separate the battery from the machine is also a good move.
Moral to the story:
LiPo cells, like any pouch cell, are very fragile and are susceptible to puncture and physical trauma. When charged, they are more dangerous than otherwise, but remember if one goes up, it's just a matter of time before they'll all go up. ALWAYS protect them from puncture by means of a rigid, flame retardant and non-conductive enclosure. IF they go up, you need to have the pack isolated by means of multiple physical dividers. Just like Teslas, and the Titanic, both of these marvels of transport had multiple compartments which bought them time.
What happened:
I was constructing a 12s 5p battery using my established single-cell method with slotted PCBs. I had loaded all of the cells and bent the tabs over, but hadn't gone any further before I realised I had forgotten to drill a hole for the BMS thermistor. Unthinking, I picked up the dremmel with a 3 mm drill bit and started drilling. At about 90% of the way through I realised I should put something underneath the PCB to stop the trill from sucking through and piercing the cells below. Too late
Then what happened?
Well the cell started to plume out that familiar acrid smoke which is only improved by igniting :lol:. I picked up the jig and took it outside the shed and emptied the contents onto the cement. I managed to isolate about half of the cells from the now flame-throwing cell, but the adjacent cells started to go up after about 30 seconds.
What went wrong?
I forgot to drill the hole first before loading the cells in. Then I got lazy and used a drill instead of an abrasive tip which drills much slower. Even then, I still should have put something below the PCB.
What went right?
The modular arrangement of the pack meant I could isolate the remaining cells from what would otherwise be a box of Roman candles going up. In a built pack this means using flame retardant, non-conductive physical barriers between battery sub-packs. Being able to rapidly separate the battery from the machine is also a good move.
Moral to the story:
LiPo cells, like any pouch cell, are very fragile and are susceptible to puncture and physical trauma. When charged, they are more dangerous than otherwise, but remember if one goes up, it's just a matter of time before they'll all go up. ALWAYS protect them from puncture by means of a rigid, flame retardant and non-conductive enclosure. IF they go up, you need to have the pack isolated by means of multiple physical dividers. Just like Teslas, and the Titanic, both of these marvels of transport had multiple compartments which bought them time.
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