LMX P2 : Freeride trials motorcycle frame development

nice video! it is awesome to see how your bikes are designed, made and tested. turned out to be a very nice strong bike.
did you leave the trail when being told your bikes are not allowed?
I have been told a couple times my bike is not allowed at the trail, then I said mine is bicycle as I can pedal. they said OK then.
What is the bb height on this bike
Can we order the LMX 81 with moto seat?
 
Hey Adam,

the Alloy-Proto is really nice, I love the main frame! Nice design :)

The 4Link rear suspension does make sense for pedaling, for the lmx I am not sure if it does make sense. The only point the fourlink does better is that it does not lock up the rear suspension while breaking. If you want to improve the lmx in that direction you can add a brake torque link:

lenz1-jpg.82539


But this adds a lot of bearings and complexity...
 
Holy hell man the P3 is go my fourlink brother. You need to send me one out for the aussie summer ;)


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DH-grade tubes may help against the flats, if you're not already using that. Can't remember when I last had one, if ever.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/en/maxxis-dh-mtb-tube/rp-prod5418
 
incememed said:
DH-grade tubes may help against the flats, if you're not already using that. Can't remember when I last had one, if ever.
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/se/en/maxxis-dh-mtb-tube/rp-prod5418
Click to expand...

We use all schwalbe DH tubes, the rear tire carcass of the halo contra is very hick (1.4kg 24" tire) but on this day we had very hard thorns and only moto tires survived! We just had one other falt on the trip, due to a big nail in the back tire you can see in the video.

Samd said:
Holy hell man the P3 is go my fourlink brother. You need to send me one out for the aussie summer ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thanks, we figured out 4bar horst link/fsr is not the best for our use because of the huge rear sprocket that imposes to have bent tubes on the top link instead of straight as in DH bikes. Also the chain pull was uncompressing the suspension slightly, wich was giving a lot of grip but very bad if you land a jump when powering on... But floating brake comportment was nice from the limited testing time we had.
So our plan now is to make something very close to what -freeride- posted, with MX like geometry. This kind of geometry would also give better leverage ratio variation and no risk of the chain pull frocking up the suspension behavior.

-freeride- check out what we are working on for the rear end now :D (one of the files below)

BCTECH said:
nice video! it is awesome to see how your bikes are designed, made and tested. turned out to be a very nice strong bike.
did you leave the trail when being told your bikes are not allowed?
I have been told a couple times my bike is not allowed at the trail, then I said mine is bicycle as I can pedal. they said OK then.
What is the bb height on this bike
Can we order the LMX 81 with moto seat?
Click to expand...

Yes we took the way down on the fire roads. The new proto has the footpegs 5cm lower than the P2.X frames. The 81 with moto sear would not make sense, but we will have an option for pedals on the 161 (serial version of the P3) as our footpegs attachement is removable and frame is 80mm wide at this point. LMX 161 with pedals would be a nice pedelec-moto hybrid with the lightweight frame.

r3volved said:
Are you looking to develop the P3 to any specific road-legal certifications or standards?

These damn LMX's are the only bike I really want, but I'd have to plate it as a low-speed motorcycle in my province...
Click to expand...

Yes we are working towards road certification as a moped. Basically we would have to limit top speed to 45kph, with no other limits needed to peak and continuous power. But it is quite a process and takes a lot of time and money...
 

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Adam, I am confused with the models or versions of the bikes, on your wesite there is lmx 81 and lmx 002 only. Then I know you currently have P2 and designing P3 , is that correct?
Where I can see 161 ?
 
the MX models we are currently selling are P2.3, the prototype we got on the tour is the P3 and the serial model based on the P3 will be the 161 as in 160mm wide, while the 81 is 80mm wide. Sorry for confusion :roll:
 
bzhwindtalker said:
the MX models we are currently selling are P2.3, the prototype we got on the tour is the P3 and the serial model based on the P3 will be the 161 as in 160mm wide, while the 81 is 80mm wide. Sorry for confusion :roll:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info.
Do you have a photo of P3 161 pedaling version? Or it's still in design stage
 
Adam :" LMX 161 with pedals would be a nice pedelec-moto hybrid with the lightweight frame."
If you ad a pedalassitent sensor and put a speedlimitswitch until 25km/u you can drive it like a regular bike on public roads :D
......maybe looks stupid :roll:
 
Very interested to see what system you will adopt for pedaling on this bike !

I hope you can fit it with a Torque sensor for Pedal assist mode as these are so much better than cadence sensors.

Make sure the Pedal assist max speed an power are adjustable so they can fit every country specification. For example in California it is now 28mph (45km/h) and 1000W.
Ideally provide several power modes for On road and off road (although you may have to lock that for France)
 
bzhwindtalker said:
We asked all manufactureers of torque sensor at eurobike and none had a 100mm torque sensor, let alone Isis type...
Click to expand...

Depending on the way you will handle the pedaling chain ring, and if you have a pedaling chain independent from the motor chain, you may want to have a look at the BEAMts sensor.

It is a Torque sensor that measures the tension in the pedaling chain, and applies throttle proportional to the pressure on the pedals, which is the most natural and intuitive pedal assist you can get (super human feel).
It is a throttle pass through system, so very easy to implement, It self calibrates, but they also have a programming tool for it.
It does not work for mid drives with a common chain for pedaling and motor (sensor would respond to motor induced tension), but if you have a separate chain system for pedaling and for the motor, it could actually work on your mid drive configuration. Below are a few links about it.
The developers, SantamonicaEV:
http://www.santamonicaev.com/page12/movies/index.html
http://www.beamtssample.com/page-2/index.html
US Reseller
http://www.ebikes.ca/beamts.html
User feedback thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=67086

EDIT:You are probably right about 100mm BB, I only found a 128mm ISIS one
http://www.ebikes.ca/isis-128.html
The one below does mention Custom size, so they may be able to accommodate a 100mm request
http://www.sempu.net/goods/detail/35.htm

I also found this one in 114mm
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/torque-sensors/tdcm-114.html

And these with no specification of size:
http://www.ncte.com/standard-sensors/pedelec-sensors/
 
Easy fix PAS, a mental PAS set to 25 km/h. Use it whenever you feel like riding within the law.
If you behave and ride like you would a normal bike there is no reason for even the most stressed out cop with various disorders to give you any griefs.

If you meet a real asshole on a bad day not even your PAS, 3 way switches, hidden buttons or fingerprint sensors will fool them. Cops are not idiots.
If you get pulled over with an e-bike they just by looking at it can say is more like a motorcycle, no fancy gadgets will get you off the hook. Especially not if cop car came up behind you as you where doing 40+mph uphill passing cars while not pedaling.

If you got no time for being pulled over ride within the law and act like you ride a bicycle. If you don't care or a gambler by nature ride it any way you like on public road and soon you will hear that too familiar sound of a whaling siren. If you stop or not is all up to you.
 
Awesome vid. I wish I had folks to ride with. I am always solo!

Putting pedals on that bike would be a downgrade. Balanced foot position is one of the best parts of the riding experience.
 
standfast said:
... Putting pedals on that bike would be a downgrade...
Click to expand...

That is just one opinion :)

I ride motorcycles, but I clearly see a need for both a light motorcycle experience, as well as the Bicycle riding experience with pedal assist.
They are just two different ways to enjoy these bikes. I don't think one is better than the other, they just serve different taste / purposes. 8)

Besides the riding experience, there is also what trails you can access. In some countries/regions, most trails are not available to motorcycles, but only bicycles.
 
I like your linkage. It's what all motocross bikes have, and since your bike doesn't involve pedalling it is worth investigating.

Well done on all your work, I am impressed.
 
standfast said:
Awesome vid. I wish I had folks to ride with. I am always solo!
Click to expand...

Haha I feel the same way when I watch those vids...I've been ebiking for almost a decade and I've seen like 2 other ebikers in my life around MA
 
I dont think 18650 are much safer than RC LI-po, but at least cells are certified; it also depends a lot on the assembly quality and concepts. We had to do a complete redesign of the battery box to fit 160 cells with holders and insulators. Our design of the 161 frame is based around this 160 cells pack with improved config. We also machined some one piece holders that will make the pack super rigid and fitting in the box without any possible movement. I think all this precautions are absolute necessity with the vibrations and shocks of off road riding.

Some pics of the new boxes and insulators later ;)
 
It is a DIY CNC we use for plasma and light machining. Last week we were able to reach 2mm steam down 4mm stepover with 6mm cardbide tool and 400mm/min advances, but sometimes the machine gets into self oscillation and the tool breaks due to the lack of rigidity. We are looking to invest into a new machine dedicated to aluminium machining to reach better finish and stable machining.
Video of a part for the 81 getting machined. From a 250x200x12 6061 block to a 420gr part, in about 2 hours ^^
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8q01weRN_n6ODZQY0ZVdlV4ZDQ/view?usp=sharing
 
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