Do you has a thread for your L1e bike ?madin88 said:that would be great^^bzhwindtalker said:
however this doesn't mean that you cannot have pedals
I wish you all the best, and i hope it will go without any bigger problems or big expenditure of money.
in october last year i made one of my bikes registerd as L1e moped 8) (btw: the "e" doesn't stand for electric drive)
At the beginning it probably is better if you make a single vehicle approval on every single bike, because it won't be that expensive, and later then a serial approval.
the insurance for such vehicle here in Austria is about 35€ per year, and the coverage in case of damage is 1Mio €
LMX P2 : Freeride trials motorcycle frame development
- Thread starter bzhwindtalker
- Start date
about the bike, yes (it is already 3 years ago when i started so it isn't up to date).craiggor said:
i will make a new thread once i have time for collecting pics and writing important things together. there will be a link i my sig then.
BCTECH
1 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
- Messages
- 320
bzhwindtalker said:
this might be only for EU, but what benefit do you really get when you have the bike like that registered ? it lets you ride in the street for certain speed? but then so much cost and restrictions could be involved. More importantly is why EU certification has more priority over introducing a pedal version that I've seen many people have been looking forward to. I rarely see people desperate to register a motocross type ebike
bzhwindtalker
100 kW
As the bike stands (lmx161), with or without pedals, it is illegal to ride on any public space/road. So for us it makes a lot more sense to works towards l1e certification to make the bike legal and insurable anywhere in EU, 45kmh max, 4kw continuous and no limit on peak power.
FelixSphere
100 mW
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2014
- Messages
- 35
In most parts of western EU it is illegal to drive ANY motorized vehicle offroad, except farmers vehicles or on private own land, but even there only if you can proof certain requirement, e.g. for transport, hunting, etc. Unfortunately sport and fun is not accepted as requirement. There are 3 exceptions: Spain, Romania and Andorra where Spain is just kinda "accepted". In Austria, Italy and Germany even pure mountainbiking (unmotorized !) is officially illegal if the path is less than 2m wide (which does not really make fun to ride). I don't know how this is handled in France. On the other hand: Has anybody ever seen an enduro/oofroad motorcycle which is fully legal ? There are certainly some....but those are from riders who don't use them off roads. So, .... you can have certificated anything and everything, but the purpose use of such kind of bikes (or better said: any video of an LMX we all love so much) will always be illegal. What I want to put in question is: Does a common license really really really make sense ?
panurge
10 kW
FelixSphere said:
Hello FelixSphere, please can you report your sources to say that? . In Italy that's totally untrue....
- there isn't a national law that can rule this kind of local roads in these terms (no bicycles, or no motorcycles) excluding national and natural parks and areas under hydro-geological risk.
In rural environments here there are 2 kind of unpaved roads: the "private local roads with public access" that are private streets with public right of way, and the "private rural roads" typically serving farms or common proprieties that are ruled by the owners, and accessible to any kind of vehicle (of the owners).
You must have visited only the alpes in Italy, where half of the land is a national or regional or local park, or subjected to the hydro-gelogical protection rules. plus there, many municipalities decided to limit everything on wheels because are often places where especially in the summer a lot of people walks and treks along the paths and the local roads, but in the rest of the country there isn't any typical limit, and usually even gassers are tolerated, unitl they damage something.
Yes sometimes some exasperated farmer puts a wire in tension between a pair of trees and some helmet rolls down with a head inside.....(actually happened
) but that's all 
Relanium
10 W
Also happening here in Slovenia, but the guy that does that, gets into a lot more trouble than the guy riding in forests (wich is prohibited, even in private ones)panurge said:Yes sometimes some exasperated farmer puts a wire in tension between a pair of trees and some helmet rolls down with a head inside.....(actually happened
By going electric, you can successfuly keep suspicion down.
chucho
1 kW
FelixSphere said:
I am with you,
And Spain... depends on where you are... try to use a motorcycle near Madrid offroad :lol:
And starting to make illegal bikes also in many offroad places
Things are getting crazy
bzhwindtalker
100 kW
There is two different things, EU (CE in France) certification, that is mandatory for any product/assembly/kit you sell, wether it is built or imported, and road certification.
To make your product comply with CE norms, you have to make some test and reports for the different applicable norms, a declaration of conformity and keep the test reports, test can be from either internal or external laboratories.
For road legal, there is indeed national or EU-wide certifications. In France there is a certification for small series of vehicles but it does not make much sense as costs are about the same as EU certification and you are limited to 50 bikes/year.
To make your product comply with CE norms, you have to make some test and reports for the different applicable norms, a declaration of conformity and keep the test reports, test can be from either internal or external laboratories.
For road legal, there is indeed national or EU-wide certifications. In France there is a certification for small series of vehicles but it does not make much sense as costs are about the same as EU certification and you are limited to 50 bikes/year.
bzhwindtalker
100 kW
We will think about it, we already took a few orders at the listed price, also we won't have a very big production over the next few months due to the LMX 81 production and orders.
However we may propose some special deals to mentors here that would be interested to test and report :wink:
However we may propose some special deals to mentors here that would be interested to test and report :wink:
--freeride--
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2011
- Messages
- 237
An EU- L1e version absolutly makes sence! That way you can get to the trails without getting problems!
And insurance is allways good as a theft insurance is only additional 30€/year.
That way you can even use the LMX for commuting
I will buy an street legal LMX.
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9505 mit Tapatalk
And insurance is allways good as a theft insurance is only additional 30€/year.
That way you can even use the LMX for commuting
I will buy an street legal LMX.
Gesendet von meinem GT-I9505 mit Tapatalk
Hi all,
two colleagues an myself are very interested to buy a LMX Bike (2.3 or 161) in the near future since the frame and whole construction reflects what we are looking for.
And yes, a L1e -Version would be great and for sure open potential customer interests since you could use the bike to travel to work or even to nearby trails if available.
Sub topic question:
Since I am a big fan of steel frames, I am curious if you are planning to adopt a progressive rear shock to future P2.X -models. I believe it could/would be a worthwhile update to the P2.3.
Would this be conceivable for the steel frame?
Al the very best,
Oliver
PS.:
Keep going on with this development! The LMX seems to be the best option in this segment! Good work guys!
two colleagues an myself are very interested to buy a LMX Bike (2.3 or 161) in the near future since the frame and whole construction reflects what we are looking for.
And yes, a L1e -Version would be great and for sure open potential customer interests since you could use the bike to travel to work or even to nearby trails if available.
Sub topic question:
Since I am a big fan of steel frames, I am curious if you are planning to adopt a progressive rear shock to future P2.X -models. I believe it could/would be a worthwhile update to the P2.3.
Would this be conceivable for the steel frame?
Al the very best,
Oliver
PS.:
Keep going on with this development! The LMX seems to be the best option in this segment! Good work guys!
chucho
1 kW
bzhwindtalker said:
Did not now they where national only certifications. That means you can not use them in other countries of EU? or that you can not have them registered outside france?
Is there a max voltage for L1e certification?
DasDouble
100 kW
--freeride-- said:
Me and also my sister too if it stays reasonably priced
DasDouble
100 kW
Artur said:DasDouble said:
what is "reasonably priced" for you guys? )
sorry Adam for posting here, but I guess this is interesting question
This is a very good question. Depends on the range you can get
On a bike with up to 80-100 km at like 45km/h on the street real range, I think most of people I know would agree to spend about 6k€ (maybe +- 600€), as this can replace a car for example and a motorcycle too. I can only tell from my relatives side, who are daily commuter with a way of maybe about 20 - 30 km each. Also this would be my personal pain threshold. *Edit: Depends of which group you want to reach. I think at an age of 30+, 7k€ could do the job. 20 and less? definitely not more then 6k.
Relanium
10 W
If you are from GERMANIA and just want to commute. (elsewhere you can get a pretty decent moped for a lot less).DasDouble said:
You buy LMX for other reasons.
Just dont go over 7k, that's where brand new KTM bikes start (yep, they are on gass, but still your segment)
panurge
10 kW
Artur said:
In fact a national registration allows to sell a limited amount of pcs depending on the category (50 pcs per each specific country in the L1e (A or B) segment. but there is a supposedly simplified procedure to extend the national approval to other country of the EU to which the manufacutrer would like to extend the certificate. For the national authorities where the first national approval has been registered, is mandatory to send all the papers and documents of that registration to the ones of the countries requested by the manufacturer. At this point, for the target countries is mandatory to reply in 3 months, if not, I believe the reply is assumed automatically as a consensus, and they anyway "shall accept" the approval and refuse only under specific and well explained circumstances where the relative national approval is in explicit contrast with the target's National regulations.
This route will probably allows a simplified procedure and a step by step increase of the max quantity of pcs. As an eaxmple I would start with my country (Italy) and then try to extend one by one to France, Malta, Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Portugal and/or to the countries that I believe or know that will accept the Italian National approval easier based on my vehicle characteristics and on the various national regulations. At a certain point, if the business has success and is boosted up over the critical mass (50 per each country per year), I'll be ready for the EU registration and probably with less efforts compared to a EU registration from the beginning.
All that should be good to lower the costs because some requirements are not mandatory for this kind of approval; some directly from the EU regulation itself(N. 168/2013) and some other eventually derogated by the single country authorities.
As an example, all the article n.57 (12 subarticles) of the regulation is not intended for a National approval:
ACCESS TO REPAIR AND MAINTENANCE INFORMATION
Article 57
Manufacturers’ obligations
1. Manufacturers shall provide unrestricted access to vehicle repair and maintenance information to independent operators through websites using a standardized format in a readily accessible and prompt manner. In particular, this access shall be granted in a manner which is non-discriminatory compared to the provision given or access granted to authorised dealers and repairers. This obligation shall not apply if a vehicle has been approved as a small series vehicle.
......OMISSIS
than follows 11 sub-articles that does not have interest at all for a National registration. (sub. 2 to 12)
Here's the National approval article:
Article 42
National type-approval of small series
......OMISSIS
6. The validity of a national type-approval of small series shall be restricted to the territory of the Member State whose approval authority granted the approval.
7. However, at the request of the manufacturer, a copy of the type-approval certificate and its attachments shall be sent by registered mail or by electronic mail to the approval authorities of the Member States designated by the manufacturer.
8. Within three months of receipt of the request referred to in paragraph 7, the approval authorities of the Member States designated by the manufacturer shall decide whether or not they accept the type-approval. They shall formally communicate their decision to the approval authority which granted the national type-approval of small series.
9. The approval authorities of the Member States shall accept the national type-approval unless they have reasonable grounds to believe that the national technical requirements in accordance with which the vehicle was approved are not equivalent to their own.
10. At the request of an applicant who wishes to place on the market or register a vehicle with national type-approval of small series in another Member State, the approval authority that granted the national type-approval of small series shall provide the national authority of the other Member State with a copy of the type-approval certificate including the information package. Paragraphs 8 and 9 shall apply.
panurge
10 kW
Relanium said:
Actually you can buy in europe a Zero FX 3.3 2016 motorbike (20Kw) new for 10.000E minus something becuse of the 2017 incoming models with all the benefits (proven bombproof batteries granted 5 years, ability to upgrade to 33Kw and twice the range etc.),You can also buy a KTM freeride-e starting a 7.000 (EDIT, the price of a KTM Freeride-e is way higher being @ 11.800). In France and other countries as well as in some local regional administrations, there are money incentive ( up to 1.000 euro and probably more somewhere) to buy an electric motorbike.
The more the OEMs push to the electric trigger (and it comes really) the less will be easy for a small "Garage" brand to be competitive. That's mostly for the cost of everything else but the frame and the electric drive... :wink:
Italy has a very solid and consolidated history about retrofits over type approved vehicles (cars and trucks) with the biggest retrofitted GPL and NPG fleet over the union, and probably still the biggest circulating LPG-NPG fleet even considering the OEMs LPG-NPG units.
As a results of that tradition, and to a positive conjuncture in the last 2 Italian governments with a very hard effort of the small but passionate Electrolobby, here, from the 2016, Italy has a very interesting and modern law, that allows to retrofit an existing, yet approved, new or used car, even an old one, with an electric propulsion. The law is very detailed and technically valid. Is not intended for DIYers but for companies that want to approve a kit and installers that want to install it.
The converted car needs not a new approval but a simple change in it's docs directly made by the installer, and the consensus of the original OEM manufacturer is not needed, but only a certification procedure by the local transportation authority. This certification is related to the specific kit and registered to a single exact type and model of car or to multiple ones and is yet made by the kits' manufacturer when the consumer decides to install the kit. Flags are that the ICE must be replaced (no hybrids) that shall be hard to reconvert the car into the original ICE state, and mostly that is a law to which the whole L category of vehicles is excluded.
Were the L vehicles included in that law, Things would became a real fun here, and small brands would have chances to play in that funny game too.
