LMX P2 : Freeride trials motorcycle frame development

Full aluminum circuit would be better? we can make the same thing with full aluminum but i'm not sure about the performance (cooling capacity) with aluminum.
 
yeah don't mix copper and aluminum, that's just asking for trouble. go all aluminum if you have to. aluminum works great i.e. most alu alloys have better thermal conductivty compared to brass

you could probably mix certain metals but you'd have to compensate by using a lot more anti-corrosives into the water which hurts performance. pure water gives best performance but isn't recommended because additives provide anti-bacterial, anti corrosive, lubricate your water pump, provide anti-cavitation for the impeller, etc etc
 
We had a good weekend at the salon du vehicule electrique Val d'isere, with 100+ test rides of the bikes, about 200km in 3 days of exhibition.
All test riders came back with positive comments and this big EV grin :p
[youtube]ov8b8BkuDGM[/youtube]
 
I like this frame, and have been watching for some time. The local law requires to have moving pedals to ride in the street.
Just wondering Will you have pedaling version in development ? Or it is out of the question :?:
 
BCTECH said:
I like this frame, and have been watching for some time. The local law requires to have moving pedals to ride in the street.
Just wondering Will you have pedaling version in development ? Or it is out of the question :?:
Click to expand...

+1 Really...It is very difficult to explain that have fallen pedals ... :roll:
i also preffer LMX with pedals. (and cooling water):D this is perfect!!

well... with my raptor... have not any problem!;)
 
LMX%20dirt%20bike.jpg


LMX%20jump%20MX.jpg
 
Hi Adam,

the bike and your website are really nice now!! I would love to have an LMX P2 but I just build a B+ tire BBS02 Banshee Prime...


I just went through the website and got some thoughts I would like to share:

1. The Frame weight is mentioned with 10.2kg what is ok for mild steel, but really heavy if you compare it DH Bike Frames, which will take similar loads the LMX Frame does.
There is an option for a crmo version mentioned that is only 100€ more.

I am mechanical design engineer and I would bett with a good crmo-design you could get the weight of the frame down to 4.0-4.5kg without loosing any strength.

2. I also would love to see laser-cut adapter plates for rear adjustable Dropouts and for an adjustable upper damper mount. That would be an easy update and you could easily adapt different wheelsizes and damper length. (I personally would love to have a 25kg LMX with a 29x2.5/single crown160mm front and 27.5x3.0/190-200mm rear. Make a 4kg crmo frame add air suspension and lightweight but strong enduro wheels and tires and we are allready there. Those big wheels are way more efficent when you ride, so the range will go up)

3. I like the look of the MTB Pedals on the LMX and asked myself, MX-footrest can swing up if you clip those somewhere. If you do that with the Pedals, you either bend your pedal-axle(what is the best option), you rip the hole thread out of the frame or you bent the frame...
So why don't you go to lightwheight MX footrests? Those look realy nice:

ZAP-E-Peg-Fussraste-Yamaha-Gas-Gas-KTM-HSQ-blau.jpg


What do you think about those thoughts?

Best Regards
 
Those are good thoughts/questions
We have chromo frames down to 8kg. Not quite as light as a carbon or alu frame from DH, but still better that stock steel version. Our goal is to get next batch of steel frames down to 9kg or so. With lightweight components and 1500wh battery, doing a 35kg LMX is already possible with chromo frame.

I tested a few bikes during the event and it was interesting to compare weight and battery capacity (plus my coments after test) :

LMX 39kg 1700wh
Freeride E 105kg 2590wh (a full size MX turned electric. Good power but bad suspension response. super heavy battery, small range, dropped it and could not pick it up alone)
Kuberg 36kg 1000wh (good power but impossible to put to the ground due to geometry, false claims about range, lol 2 hours with 8kw on 1kwh of batt)
Bulcato 39kg 1300wh (good bike for your gandpa with 2 sec delay on throttle and 2kw max. Frame is not rigid at all on the swingarm area)

About the adjustability, we are working on adjustement of the rear subframe for tall riders. The rear drops have 30mm of adjustement for chain tensionning.

For the XC/AM version of the LMX we are still working on the 81, that has pedals as a bonus and fits 27.5" wheels :p Same motor, fits 900wh of 18650.


About the footpegs/pedals we never had an issue with that, we never broke an axle of damaged a frame yet. The pedal threads in 10mm of steel and is very close to a welded braced area. We had the question during the weekend, some peole wished they had MX pegs and other liked that the pedals were following their position on the bike. Personnaly I like to be able to ride in regular shoes, as riding jumps with footpegs require having MX boots to support the landing on the smaller area of pegs vs pedals.

Adam
 
You are right, MX Boots are not an option.

A god designed crmo Frame does not have to be heavier than an aluminium one, If you use bigger Tubes with thin sidewalls, the Frame will be stiffer and more lightweight.

Here are some Infos, a guy in the german velomobil-Forum showed. He is where good in building superb lightweight crmo recumbent Frames. the 50x0.9mm crmo tube has nearly twice the strength with have the weight the 50x1.5 ST37 mild steel tube has:
http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/...astbarkeit-gaengiger-rahmenmaterialien.44990/

I would not want to be my "lightweight LMX" be an XC AM Version, to my point of view an 160mm 29 front is capable to run out a 200mm 26 front.
With a big frontwheel it is much easier to clear rough obstacles.

Although you could use lightweight tires and rims with an Schwalbe procore inner tube on the rear wheel and have the same resistance than a DH tire with a heavy rim, but half the weight.
The weight of the tire is what you notice the most when accelerating.
 
Here you go. 6.7kg.
Built this one https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57668&hilit=bzhwindtalker&start=400#p1041818 a while ago.
Time for Prototype 2. Oil cooled motor concept ready also. Controller also PCB ready.
bzhwindtalker, let me know if you want to share some business aspects. Have neither time nor interrest in business competition. Just love the idea. :) Felix
 

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Yep. That's my thought too, but I am coming more from the enduro side. Have lot's of mountains around me. The rear suspension is progressive like from a Trek remedy. You can adjust the geometry of the bike with a single screw under the seat. The motor axle is in the swing arm pivot point. It can take up to 162mm diameter motors with 150 length. Anyway it has the geometry of a mtb downhill bike...not like a KTM :). I will put another layer of carbon on the frame these days. I have extended the BHT motor at the outlet side a bit so it can take a manual 2 speed gearbox. CAD is finished, now I need to CNC all this stuff. Will keep you posted !!!
 
Very nice work Felix!
The carbon main frame should be very light, but I think you get a big weight penalty with the milled rear end.
A Carbon swingarm or welded aluminium tubes would be much lighter.

In Numbers without the damper, what i think is possible:

4.5kg in Crmo,
4kg in Aluminium
Sub 3kg in carbon (if someone builds the frame that really knows how to use the material)
 
You are totally right reg. weight. Anyway still very light. But I could not withstand to mill the swingarm out of 7075aluminum blocks :).
 
BHZ, the progression of your company is fun to observe. What a beautiful setting for the expo.

Felix, that frame is absolutely awesome. I can't imagine what that would cost in the retail market! :shock:

It's funny that everyone is talking about going lighter. I sometimes wish my bike was heavier. The suspension is much better with some sprung weight to counteract the bumps/rocks/roots at higher speeds. When it comes to offroad, a little heavier combined with a bigger tire gives a lot more traction and grip in and out of the corners. I think I am using a much bigger tire than BHZ and I overcome the traction available in the tire still in almost every corner in the trails. A longer wheelbase is also great for offroad stability. It also makes for a heavier bike but I believe its better for high speed trail riding. I am at 1280mm wheelbase. Where is everyone else?

The other problem with going ultra thin on your tubular members is you make them much more susceptible to being dented. This could be a problem if you push it hard and you know you will be wrecking the bike now and again.
 
I am coming from the hard enduro 250cc two-stroker and 600 four-stroker pro scene and yes, you are right what matters weight. But that is only true under certain conditions, mostly when speeding in rough terrain. No joke, but with a heavier bike also a crash is happening slower (especially when you go over the handlebar :) ) because the mass momentum is simply higher. But the more technically difficult terrain gets, reducing mass counts. simply compare a trial bike with a 600cc enduro. And what I especially love to ride is singe trails. With my MTB I have the greatest fun with curvy small tracks, steep steps etc. Now with bike like the LMX you cannot only have fun downhill, but also Uphill. And under those condition a lighter bike is great to ride and saves amps. There are also some tracks over here, you simply cannot ride with anything. You need to carry the bike for some meters. Anyway, I guess 40kg is already awesome, and anything below 30kg is propably senseless. The wheelbase of my bike is 1280 also with a max of 1330 (adjustable). No matter if 30 or 40kg, Adam's idea with the LMX is a great idea which might be the base for a complete new sport, indoor and outdoor !
 
Congrats dudes you just pushed me enough to design the P3 :p I hope to be able to make a proto during summer
The P2 frame was never designed to fit this much battery, new frame will be optimized for 160x 18650 cells, with side swappable packs, with room for 200 if needed.
 
bzhwindtalker said:
Congrats dudes you just pushed me enough to design the P3 :p I hope to be able to make a proto during summer
The P2 frame was never designed to fit this much battery, new frame will be optimized for 160x 18650 cells, with side swappable packs, with room for 200 if needed.
Click to expand...

Please add a pedaling version to P3. my guess is 10 people like the bike, 3 people want mx, 7 people want pedaling version. maybe even 10. if pedaling option is there, it works for both. mx version only is too limited, and push away many people who like this awesome bike.
 
You guys are right that a heavy Bike is more stable.

But the key is to have low unsprung weight! A light bike with lighter wheels will be stable too and it is much easier to handel it and push it with your body weight.
Also a bike with half the wheel weight accelerates 3-4 times better than one with heavy wheels!

I am for fatbike tires or at least Plus tires. Yesterday I had a friends 120mm Fatbike fully with a BBSHD here to applicate the motor controls. What should I say, just by driving around the block, you can really feel the potential of this Monster!
 
Trials riding and trail blazing are different animals no doubt. Speaking of trail blazing, I give BHZ a ton of credit. His bike and his riding style inspired me to build one. It wasn't just a commuter bike with a motor mounted on it somehow. It's the makings of a sport like Felix mentioned.

BHZ, I am surprised you fit 1700wh into that box. Doesn't seem possible. I cut my pack down from 20AH to 15AH at 72V because I was consuming far less than I thought I would on my commute to work and during my trail riding sessions. So now I am down to only 1080wh and I still am satisfied with the range. Are you using 18650's now or hobby lipo?

Regarding functioning pedals on this type of bike. Frankly, it just seems silly to me. I can't imagine pedaling this thing effectively. Maybe on tarmac but why? I think BHZ's other bike is a good solution if you want to pedal.
 
Thats my Opinion to, the LMX is not for pedaling. If you want padals get a BBSHD fatbike or a BBS02 enduro. Those are real nice bikes for pedaling and trailsriding.
If I do trailtours on the BBS bikes with my Girl, where we ride relaxed up the hills, we can go 50-70km distance and 1500meters difference in altitude with only one 460Wh battery each.
When I go trailblazing that battery is empty in 45 Minutes :)

If you just want pedals for the look, wait for BHZ- pedal-bike.
 
Pedals on the LMX would be 100% silly and reduce the capabilities of the bike as far as freeriding stability.
Our pedal bike pedals are not just for looks :) we have 8 pedal speeds and hopefully decend pedalling geometry.
 
bzhwindtalker said:
Pedals on the LMX would be 100% silly and reduce the capabilities of the bike as far as freeriding stability.
Our pedal bike pedals are not just for looks :) we have 8 pedal speeds and hopefully decend pedalling geometry.
Click to expand...

its mainly for the law. be able to ride in the street in some countries require pedaling. I guess riding to the trails is better than all the hassle hauling it with a car.
Even better if P3 can have a conversation kit, swapping between fixed / rolling pedals
I bet many people has been asking the same
 
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