LMX P2 : Freeride trials motorcycle frame development

[BCTECH]

Actually you can buy in europe a Zero FX 3.3 2016 motorbike (20Kw) new for 10.000E minus something becuse of the 2017 incoming models with all the benefits (proven bombproof batteries granted 5 years, ability to upgrade to 33Kw and twice the range etc.),You can also buy a KTM freeride-e starting a 7.000. In France and other countries as well as in some local regional administrations, there are money incentive ( up to 1.000 euro and probably more somewhere) to buy an electric motorbike.

The more the OEMs push to the electric trigger (and it comes really) the less will be easy for a small "Garage" brand to be competitive. That's mostly for the cost of everything else but the frame and the electric drive... :wink:

I think the Lmx is very different from Zero/KTM, its more like a diy set up where you can use your own bicycle components. it is much lighter and everything looks clean for freeride style.
It will be hard to complete with those big brand (Zero/KTM) for a whole bike setup, also could be much easier for them to get licensing in Europe than smaller brand?!
Although I think it makes more sense to add pedals on this bike, then you are completing with stealth, qulbix, with a more unique mid drive set up.
I agree the price point is on the higher side, maybe due to the low volume production. But then It could be what lmx wanted, just to keep the qc and more time/effort on development side

 

[panurge]

Yes, I haven't anything against LMX. Au contraire, I like it and I think that Adam and the LMX crew are doing an exceptional job. That said, when I heard (not Adam but the other guys) about a 7K bike, categorized as L1 (so with helmet, insurance, label, taxes etc.) than the comparison with the KTM freeride-e or a true motorbike like the zero FX that are in exactly the same or just a bit over the price range, is absolutely natural.....both electric, and same price range, seems to me an automatic comparison even if there could be a big difference in power, weight or any other, It's not me, but the average consumer that will make this comparison.

 

[BCTECH]

Yes, I haven't anything against LMX. Au contraire, I like it and I think that Adam and the LMX crew are doing an exceptional job. That said, when I heard (not Adam but the other guys) about a 7K bike, categorized as L1 (so with helmet, insurance, label, taxes etc.) than the comparison with the KTM freeride-e or a true motorbike like the zero FX that are in exactly the same or just a bit over the price range, is absolutely natural.....both electric, and same price range, seems to me an automatic comparison even if there could be a big difference in power, weight or any other, It's not me, but the average consumer that will make this comparison.

agree with you on that
I am not sure whats the real deal behind the L1e, according to my understanding, L1e gives you the right to ride on the street legally but then off road trail is always illegal in any case anyway. What is advantage to put lmx onroad riding in traffics? isn't lmx bike is designed for pure off road riding.
Unless people like me need to ride certain distance onroad before hitting the forest, in this case L1e might be useful, but then this not apply to US.

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Hi guys! Sorry for the lack of reply from our side, we are super busy in the shop working on setting up the 81 and 161 production, plus other projects!

I think a shop tour overview is long overdue, we have some cool stuff going on :wink: Will try to do so tomorow or during weekend.

Very happy to see some good inputs and comments on the subject.

I am not sure whats the real deal behind the L1e, according to my understanding, L1e gives you the right to ride on the street legally but then off road trail is always illegal in any case anyway. What is advantage to put lmx onroad riding in traffics? isn't lmx bike is designed for pure off road riding.
Unless people like me need to ride certain distance onroad before hitting the forest, in this case L1e might be useful, but then this not apply to US.

Most of the trails we ride are not forbided to bikes, we very often see packs of MX bikes on those trails.
The fact is we need to pack the bikes in the car to acces those trails. Then, as the trails are public property, insurance can not cover in case of accident. Legally, the only place you can ride a one of those bikes with pedals or not is on private land with owner autorisation and the bike should still be insured for civil liability.

Having our bike certified will open up a lot more legal riding possibilities.

The more the OEMs push to the electric trigger (and it comes really) the less will be easy for a small "Garage" brand to be competitive. That's mostly for the cost of everything else but the frame and the electric drive...

You are right, that is why we decided to build our frames in house in France.
About the prices compared to KTM or other competitors : the freeride E price used to be 12k€ until a few months back. The bike weights 105kg and packs 2.59kwh, our 161 will pack up to 2.7kwh for 43kg with two moto wheels and 39kg with bike wheels. About the price, the base model with 1.7kwh pack come in at 6800€ incl VAT, I'm not sure you can find many complete DH bike with European made frame for that price.

It is easy to tell the general public why the LMX is a different product, just show them a picture of the LMX on a bike rack or a pic of someone lifting the bike. I tested the KTM on a small MX track, power was good but I could not feel the grip in the front end and the suspension sucked on small woops (probably badly tuned for me). I dropped the bike in a deep corner, took me quite a few tries to get it back up

Adam

 

[scrambler]

The "comparable" bikes from manufacturers I know of today are the bikes from Bultaco (brinco) and Kuberg (freerider).
They are cheaper because they benefit from the cost reductions established manufacturers can leverage.

On the other hand they are not fully up to the boutique specs or able to offer the configuration flexibility.

But the only way prices will become more affordable, is if more large manufacturers decide to pursue the segment.

So far progress has been slow, so boutique businesses like LMX, Vector, Qulbix or others still have some time to be able to sell at their price point.

And even if cheaper bikes become available, it will help make the segment grow, and that will mean more customers for boutique sellers who will want customizations beyond what is available from the big guys

"Donc pas de soucis, tout baigne "

 

[DasDouble]

Cheap freeride bikes are already available, see the Vector clones. But quality has it´s price. For not so much informed people: Lag of painting job which results into rust after short time. Not mentioning the missing great service of companys in europe, like LMX.

I am supprised that the price for the bikes you have mentioned dropped down. I was informed like Adam said, with a price of about 12k€ which would be too much for a, lets call it "younger person"..

 

[panurge]

I'm sorry, my mistake, the price of the Zero fx 3.3 I've reported is the right one, whilst the price of a freeride-e 2016 here is 10.500 from the KTM local shop, and 11.800 for the 2017. I mixed the price from the shop catalog with the 350cc ICE version .
Anyway as said I absolutely understand that the LMX is another machine, and that kuberg and other L1 products are the true competitors (and sure worst even just looking them on a video) mine was a reasoning about the potential competition with bigger scale economies and similarly or relatively little more priced L2 motorbikes.
The riding skills and passion of the crew is the best part of the confidence I have in the LMX product as well as the long improving and refinement route you have pursued.
6700 should be a reasonable price, and your mention to the price of a DH bike today is right too, if you manage to break the hearts of the pro/semipro Bicycle freerider/downhiller than the bike will sell well, but in a relatively small market. For most average riders that should be an hard choice, though, because owning a 6000K freeride/DH machine is a thing, but owning two of them is probably out of most pockets/intentions.

EDIT: hey I'm sure your shop does not seems like a garage, and would be great to have a look of it, was just a common way to intend small shops/companies :wink:

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Some updates about lmx161 and lmx81
We finished the sample frame for the 161, everything fits 8) the linkage gives a very progressive rate, you can feel it right away. We are re-designing the box to fit up to 220 cells for custom battery packs. Our stock pack will remain at 160 cells with very good protection and safety features. Weight with the 160 cell battery and 19" rear wheel is 38kg ! It means that with an air shock and forks+24" bike rear wheel the weight can be below 35kg, with 2kwh of battery. Frame weight is 7.5kg including the shock and spring, all hardware.

View attachment 1





For the lmx81, the new batch is all 2mm and frames weight is 2.75kg. We changed the frame battery door design and we will test the bike this weekend for torsional rigidity of the front frame, to see if we need to implement a solution to improve that, calculations says it should be OK without the mod.
We will equip our test bike with a 25mm stator and 10s6p battery to test a "pedelec" configuration, should come at under 25kg.

 

[brumbrum]

Thanks for the updates, the 161 is looking nice and neat and compact. I could be persuaded to purchase a frame and drive train in the coming months for sure. All i need is a rear shock and to get around to building a battery for it. I will be needing a new project soon as i have run out of things to do on my current bike.

 

[BCTECH]

will you offer the frame with color? like paint or powder coating?

 

[litespeed]

As always you knocked the ball right out of the park again!

Great design.

Tom

 

[brumbrum]

Question: when purchasing the 161 as a frame and drive train combination, does it Include the battery box and foot pegs?
Thanks
Andrew

 

[panurge]

Beautiful. I really like it!

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Some testing with the 15-94T 219 transmission : Noise levels are greatly reduced, but not very visible (audio) on the video due to the shotgun microphone. Mid range power is very good but it lacks the explosive torque at low rpm of the 12-94T gearing, even with 140A peak. A battery with better cells may help, also the samples of wider motors with 0.35mm laminations should get here soon

We had to redesign the whole linkage to fit needle bearings because the ball bearings did not survive the first rides Good thing is the load rating is now 10x higher with the needle bearings.

https://www.facebook.com/LMXbikes/videos/6397586862112

 

[scrambler]

Would be nice to widen your audience by making that facebook account with the videos pubic.

Not everyone uses a facebook account

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Yes I don't Know why they do that, vid is public on our Facebook page...

here's YT for you
[youtube]SONvT7iEw6Y[/youtube]

 

[brumbrum]

Question: when purchasing the 161 as a frame and drive train combination, does it Include the battery box and foot pegs?
Thanks
Andrew

Thanks for answering my question....

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Frame kit includes the footpegs, battery box, rear wheel (minus tire and disk) sprokets and chain, seat, plastics (new updated ones coming soon). We can also include some special machined 18650 holders for DIY battery builders.

 

[brumbrum]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Cheers.

 

[DasDouble]

Nice video, but even more awesome bike! I think when you put some more effort into your videos, you can get way more views then you have right now. Just have a look at the motorcycle edits from the YouTuber called "querly".

Watch this and enjoy! He motivated me to drive a "bike" too. With this you will get 100% more views/attention then before.


PS: Remember: You don´t sell only a product. You sell a lifstyle
[youtube]p2h2kNv-6dk[/youtube]

 

[madin88]

also the samples of wider motors with 0.35mm laminations should get here soon

sounds awesome!

We had to redesign the whole linkage to fit needle bearings because the ball bearings did not survive the first rides Good thing is the load rating is now 10x higher with the needle bearings.

the lifetime of the needle bearings used for the horst link supension on my Votec frame wasn't that long (size was 14x10x10mm IIRC). it is much better as ball bearings, but still not optimal for suspension linkages.

I have swapped the needle bearing for igus iglidur anti friction bushings, and it works really well!
it is the same material as huber uses for his special damper bushings: http://huber-bushings.com/

 

[bzhwindtalker]

The bearings we use now are ex21*wi16*15int x2 pcs with hardened shafts so we should be fine
But you are right in some situations bushings may be simpler and more durable..

 

[bzhwindtalker]

LMX 161 with some of the new body panels :

LMX 81 with the new logo as stickers :

 

[SlowCo]

Photo's not visible for me unfortunately.

 

[bzhwindtalker]

Ok thanks will check that