Local e-bike racetracks

[John in CR]

Dogman,
So it's 25mph minimum speed? You definitely need two of my ventilated motors and controllers capable of really delivering the amps, because with 20s and a 19.5" wheel it doesn't hit max power until right around 35mph. That seems right in the sweet zone for the track. I have to think that you're right about front drive being an advantage with those curves, but 2wd has to be the way to go with no weight limit.

 

[Whiplash]

I have a feeling you will notice a big difference in the acceleration with more amps as well, I think honestly that will be where you win or loose, its really the only advantage we have is the torque, so I would definitely try more amps to get out of the hole quicker... I don't think the volts will make much difference from 70-100 considering the extra weight in battery you will need... Could be wrong though..

 

[AussieJester]

2wd IMHO on road/surfaced track is no advantage at all, if it was advantageous all road race bikes would run it.
IMO it would be a disadvantage on road, extra weight and more packs to power it, a rear wheel drive would snot all over it.
If you have as much power as you say your front wheel would be light if not in the air so having drive through it is pointless
not to mention how powering a front wheel is going to affect the cornering ability of the bike when both tires are on the edge of traction,
i could imagine losing the front or worse a highside being more of an issue....How will you get both these motors running in sync anywayz? if they
aren't running identical rpms speeds in identical size rims one frock will always be fightiing the other (with the DD frocks
you use geared would be different one would freewheel if it was spinning slower than the other) lord knows what that will
do for handling and efficiency...Obviously this won't discourage you building this 2 wheel drive monster ...so time will tell how well
it works i guess :-S best of luck with it.. jmy2c

KiM

p.s Dogman....if you had gone with rc setup you would only need 48v not 100v ... my 100lbs cruiser gets to 35mph in ~4-5 seconds

 

[Whiplash]

I think the only reason he is suggesting 2WD is just to be able to get more ultimate power due to the limitations of the hub motors power output, otherwise one monster hub would be best in the rear for acceleration for sure.. Personally I think an R/C setup in max performance mode will destroy even the gas bikes, I have seen video of Recumpence's twin drives in action and there is NO gas 50cc bike that will do that, I can guaranty it! Hell, my PORTED AND POLISHED KX125cc dirt bike didn't have that kind of power!One of those setups running a custom frame setup with Supermoto style tires on wide rims and you might as well be on a motorcycle! I would think you could do 60MPH in the straight easy, and RIP to the next corner!

 

[AussieJester]

One of those setups running a custom frame setup with Supermoto style tires on wide rims and you might as well be on a motorcycle! I would think you could do 60MPH in the straight easy, and RIP to the next corner!

Pretty much explains Thuds setup...except you missed he will also have a custom carbon fiber cased 2 speed dog box to hammer gears...
waaaaaaaaaa :: clunk:: WAAAAAAAAAAAA.... long as he can carry enough lipo he will piss it in.

Johns frocked bike does ~100km/hr so i don't see the reason for the second front wheel frock? it will do nothing but weigh the bike down
as far as i can work out...

KiM

 

[dogman dan]

Exiting the corners at 30 mph I will have 2wd, and lose it again at around 35 when I cant keep up with the pedals. No synch problems. At the apex, I won't pedal much if I lean enough to pedal strike.

The main reason I'm stuck on the frock motor is that I love that feeling in the corners of front wheel drive. 1200 watts pulling felt great, and 2800 feels even better, with no hint that I am going to spin the wheel yet. I won't be able to change amps till I get that dang program running on my computer. But next time I take out the bike, I can try 24s and see if 100 v helps.

I wish flying you in with your bike for the death race was a possiblility John, but then you'd have to wear shoes.

 

[AussieJester]

Exiting the corners at 30 mph I will have 2wd, and lose it again at around 35 when I cant keep up with the pedals. No synch problems. At the apex, I won't pedal much if I lean enough to pedal strike.

LoL..well of course you won't have 'sync' problems your powering the rear wheel yourself. What i want to know is, if you have for example two 1000watt direct drive motors, one in a 20in rim on the back (which appears the norm) and a 1000watt frock in the front wheel...how do you stop the rear from 'pushing' the front frock along as it will spin slower on the big rim, whish would actually be resistance... Just curious i am guessing there is some setings in the speed controller for the frocks that can 'even' things out? Still seems like a big wate of time to me, rear wheel drive anyday on a race track IMHO last thing i would want is power through the front wheel when i'm tipped over on the edge of the tire! front end loose is common in bike racing, front wheel drive would make it worse.

KiM

 

[Thud]

Since this thread is totaly derailed I'll chime in again.
Wiplash, you are correct, even a moderatly powerd Rc set up can lay wast to 99% of 50cc motoredbikes off the line. My lil bmx dominates the scooters off the line & all the way to 35mph on a 50mm motor.(now 63mm) The issue is getting all that power to last for 20+ minutes under full strain.
Its very easy to be impressed with smoking tire videos, but "on track" performance is very diferent. I am not certain a pr of 80mm turnigys can haul my 195# carcass around the track pulling 100+ amps out of every corner & survive for 20 min. I really want competitive power for the duration of the 12 miles we will be running. Deathrace or world challenge

Don't underestimate the 50cc morini's. they have a tuneable clutch & will out launch any hub motor Ive seen videos posted of (methods included). Given they are rpm tuned & geared for that track they are very formidble. There is a guy building chinese/puch hybred engines that are wipeing the track with last years winner in practice right now in regard to speed. Its rumered 80cc+ the whizzer allowed in the last death race was 135cc. Add, there are guys gettin the Sick Bike Parts shift kits figured out also...that will make this a motorcycle race once the gassers get a reliable gear change.

I am only trying to make certain I don't show up at a gun fight with a rubber knife.

I have a morini motor on the bench right now & I am intimate with performance tuning racing 2 strokes engines. My next few experiments with electric powered racers will make it easy to decide wich way to devote my energy. grafting a high powerd smoker onto my frame & using the electric for gigles down at the park.
AJ. i have cogs inbound for a 3 speed tranny 8)
John....I hate fwd on my 4 wheel vehicles....I cant even contemplate fwd on on a 2 wheeler.

As for all the jawing going on about how e-bike will DOMINATE...sheesh its a lot of presure... so everyone feel free to join the real fun and come to the event, show up & have a blast. You won't meet a better class of people than racers.
What better way to promote your entrepreneur intrests? win on sunday-sell on Monday!
My wife commented the other day about me having the "race face" on while draging a broken bicycle up the driveway

 

[AussieJester]

As for all the jawing going on about how e-bike will DOMINATE...sheesh its a lot of presure...

If anyones can handle the pressure you can Thudster, this will be a walk in the park compared to your
motorcyle racing antics... I can't see 12miles being a problem, you wont need to run WOT all the time
get a buffer, lap ...lap and a half then back off the pace to make the finish line....

KiM

p.s 3 speed transmition, will these be for all or the one off for your race bike? i'll pay the extra for 3 speed
waaaaaaaa :: clunk:: Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa :: clunk :: waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Makez it happen Thudmiester :lol:

 

[John in CR]

I wish flying you in with your bike for the death race was a possiblility John, but then you'd have to wear shoes.

Don't worry for racing I'd be in full gear. I consider that a high risk activity and would prepare accordingly. It's like being out on the deck of a sailboat on a nice sunny day vs in the middle of the night in a storm. For one I'd have a life jacket on and maybe even some kind of safety tether, but for the other I wouldn't wear anything more than a swimming suit.

 

[Whiplash]

As for all the jawing going on about how e-bike will DOMINATE...sheesh its a lot of presure... so everyone feel free to join the real fun and come to the event, show up & have a blast. You won't meet a better class of people than racers.
What better way to promote your entrepreneur intrests? win on sunday-sell on Monday!

I am hopeful I will have something to bring to the races, but I doubt it will be a winning vehicle, as I need to get my prototype completed, not a race bike! BUT rest assured, if time and money permit, I WILL have a race only machine coming soon! I hope you don't mis interpret my optimism, I just want all of us to do well, and I have a feeling, if they are bringing more than 50cc bikes, then we are in fro a real fight!

 

[Thud]

Were cool Whiplash,
I just wanna show up as descretly as posible....if we bust, we can sneak out under the radar, If we stand em back on their heels, all the better. I know there will be a few of us showing up at the events & I just don't want to have any targets on our backs from smack talk. (real or imagined)

LFP's entry into spookytooths blog site throwing gauntlets & then us "not-showing up" is a strike right in the ol' credibility. We are already percieved as "Greenie Weirdo's" by the bulk of the gas comunity already. Thats just my sniper style though.....never let em see you coming. :lol:

 

[etard]

The main reason I'm stuck on the frock motor is that I love that feeling....

Haha!! I love that even Dogman is callin em Frock motors!

Is this a serious race, like more that 5 entries? The pics I saw from the last one, seemed like an abandoned track with like 3 bikes. Maybe that was due to the rain?

Also, if these guys are using 135cc shifters, how is that even fair? Might as well have V Rossi out there on a 125cc GP bike and strap some pedals on for compliance, but then it would be a motorcycle race.

 

[dogman dan]

The Spooky tooth death race had about 100 or more people entered. There was 3 elimination heats of about 30 riders each, plus more who just ran practice laps. The main event got it narrowed down to the fast guys, and had about 30 riders. I was the only electric bike there running on the track. There was also a fairly large group who just showed gasoline bikes at the event, without risking rolling sculpture on the track.

It's considered to be the US national motorized bicycle champinonships.

Winning it this year would have been very hard, next year, it will be harder. But, who knows, those guys get fast enough, more of em will be out there in the dirt looking at bent up bikes. The 4 really fast guys at last years race most likely won't be crashing. They can ride, and it's thier local track.

Hopefully we have enough ebikes there next year to have a sort of race within the race, settling who's the unlimited ebike champ. All we need is somebody to count laps for the ebikes and log who's first. We'll likely know already anyway.

 

[John in CR]

AJ, You've got a wrong impression about how 2wd would work. No sync is necessary, and both motors are independently applying positive torque to the bike. That's why 2 motors works on a trike too, kinda like a limited slip differential.

Why 2 motors? Because for a 20lb increase the power output is doubled. My motors get strong acceleration only by applying current that controllers are unhappy with. If there's no weight limit then of course 2 motors make sense, because the weight increase is small and the extra battery requirement is related almost entirely to the extra power. It's about the same thing as you going to dual motors on yours, but this is more advantageous because the power gets applied to 2 wheels.

 

[etard]

Well the weak link is currently the controllers and 12 miles of hard racing is going to require a trailer full of batteries (are trailers allowed? Could be used to swing back and forth to thwart would be passers ) If you are applying more force than one tire is capable of withstanding than I would suggest a wider tire. Otherwise, the battle now goes back to efficiency for electric bikes to compete. Also, since there might not be enough time between heats to charge fully, he who has the most batteries wins. I guess that makes you the hands down winner John, no need to race.

Dogman, is there a link or photo page of this race? I would like to see what kind of bikes these gassers are running, we need to mimic these guys and then beat them with acceleration out of the corners that thier ICE can't provide.

I also think the wieggt limit restriction is best, buy possibly add a minimum weight for bike + rider so that somebodies crazy 10 year old isn't killing the "average" adult.

 

[John in CR]

...he who has the most batteries wins. I guess that makes you the hands down winner John, no need to race...

A number of people have multi-kwh of batteries. Make it a couple hundred miles and no recharging, and then I've got a good chance, since I haven't seen any with both sufficient batteries and a cargo bike capable of carrying them.

 

[John in CR]

I also think the wieggt limit restriction is best, buy possibly add a minimum weight for bike + rider so that somebodies crazy 10 year old isn't killing the "average" adult.

Just like I said, more rules to come. Hopefully it gets popular enough to have different classes and race types, so bring what you got can work in addition to those who are serious. An interesting add-on event would a distance challenge, with pedals disconnected and identical battery packs assigned at random the challenge would be who can get the furthest. Then the event is likely to attract broader participation, since the majority aren't interested in speed.

I still don't understand why the 2 wheel limit. If they're scared of trikes shouldn't they be just as scared of low racers? With a 70lb limit, competitors should want guys to waste weight on an extra wheel.

 

[Whiplash]

There you go, we need some seriously LOW bikes to help wit aero and cornering. Wouldn't that help? It would seem so, build it like a sport bike, where you lay on it and pedal face down, that would be crazy!

 

[AussieJester]

Aero will play a BIG part no doubt, i think a fairing like used in the 1950-60s i think it was Thudster? on
road racing motorcycles, i believe they were outlawed eventually, the fairing though encompassed the whole front
wheel. This type of setup would be the shot for electric bicycle IMO. I know Just ducking down to bar level on my
own cruiser i get an extra 3-4 clicks almost immediately.

KiM

 

[Whiplash]

Same here, it certainly helps! You will only get one chance at it though, as the gassers see that and they will have it the very next race!

Edit:
I just found a site that sells fairings if anyone wants to try them, really not too bad, most are under 300 bucks!

http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/

 

[John in CR]

There you go, we need some seriously LOW bikes to help wit aero and cornering. Wouldn't that help? It would seem so, build it like a sport bike, where you lay on it and pedal face down, that would be crazy!

For aero yes lower is better, but for the fixed position weight of the bike higher CG is better for the curves. That's because the highest point takes the shortest path through the curve making the road effectively straighter. Racing motorcycles would be shaped very different otherwise. Low is better for cars through the curves, but not for leaning vehicles. That's why there's not a valid reason to exclude trikes. Their traction advantage is offset by the inability to straighten the curves like a bike can.

 

[AussieJester]

That's why there's not a valid reason to exclude trikes. Their traction advantage is offset by the inability to straighten the curves like a bike can.

As Luke has already mentioned they are excluded because they handle like go karts
and would out corner any two wheeled bike easily. Imagine recumpences 28hp yellow trike on a go kart track
John, he would be lapping bikes after several laps. I woudn't exclude them altogether, if 2 turn up let them race
amongst themselves.

KiM

 

[etard]

Man, screw the trikes! Imagine trying to pass this low ass guy recumbent style on a trike I would end up running his ass over!! Its not that they are not considered a bicycle under the law, it's about hey they are fundementally different vehicles. Imagine a 24 hours of lemans race with cars AND motorcycles. That my friends, is a death race.

 

[Thud]

Trikes by nature are a different class of vehicle...hence the name TRI-cycle.
The is the E-bi-cycle world challange.....(snob allert!)
The Dust-bin farings are always ready to be re-vived....There is a guy a few miles form me playing with electric bikes & trikes witha nice dustbin on a converted CB125.
Jay64 has met Kraig at a few events that look like they would be worth attending. I was at mid Ohio that year but only had time for the Vintage motocross.(spectating next year maybe)View attachment 1
http://www.schultzengineering.us

what a lot of guys don't know is that the rear end wher the air come back together is where the real gains are to made.
I really like the looks of this bike: