Local e-bike racetracks

[John in CR]

Hey John! No trikes! I already asked.
otherDoc

That just makes me want to build one even more. Rules are meant to be broken. They'll have minimum seat height and all manner of other rules before it's all said and done, stuff like limits on area of fairings, no blades on the wheels like a scythed chariot, etc. I thought the weight limit was supposed to cover everything.

 

[Whiplash]

no blades on the wheels like a scythed chariot, etc. I thought the weight limit was supposed to cover everything.

Yeah!

 

[docnjoj]

Hey John! No trikes! I already asked.
otherDoc

That just makes me want to build one even more. Rules are meant to be broken. They'll have minimum seat height and all manner of other rules before it's all said and done, stuff like limits on area of fairings, no blades on the wheels like a scythed chariot, etc. I thought the weight limit was supposed to cover everything.

Hmm.......... no blades on the wheels. The wheelchair racers would protest!
otherDoc

 

[fizzit]

I think you should also have an open class where you can race just off-the-wall electric-motorized stuff for entertainment

 

[John in CR]

I think you should also have an open class where you can race just off-the-wall electric-motorized stuff for entertainment

I have to resort to racing ICE scooters and small delivery motos for my racing entertainment down here. The few electric bikes I see are that max 20kph chinese stuff that's like racing a pedestrian. I see a few noisy gasser bikes too, but non are suped up, so they're no fun to race either. The real competition is against the scooters, and once I go to 2wd I can take a step up in moto class to race. I love blowing by a moto on the sneak when they struggle to catch up to me. Soon I'll be able to toy with then by waiting a bit, and then blast them again.

 

[amberwolf]

Spend a couple grand in logistics to make a racing effort, and another few grand on building a bike to meet the rule requirements only to have somebody tell you your bike is too good to race... The whole concept makes my blood boil...

IIRC that's kinda what happpened to recumbents in races in Europe back in what, the 1930s? Somebody won a race with one and after he won THEN they disqualified recumbents and wouldn't give him the prize? I can't remeber for sure.

This uses a belt drive to the rear axel, where I will just be mounting the rear wheel right onto the output shaft (making it a hubmotor).

Something like the way F&P mounted his washing machine motor?

 

[madact]

Hey John! No trikes! I already asked.
otherDoc

That just makes me want to build one even more. Rules are meant to be broken. They'll have minimum seat height and all manner of other rules before it's all said and done, stuff like limits on area of fairings, no blades on the wheels like a scythed chariot, etc. I thought the weight limit was supposed to cover everything.

Hmm.......... no blades on the wheels. The wheelchair racers would protest!
otherDoc

Ye gods, this sounds like it's turning into a wannabe UCI ! Isn't DIY e-biking meant to be about technical innovation, rather than eliminating simple techniques that anyone could do, on account of them conferring an 'unfair advantage' by being 'too aerodynamic' or some such? Maybe you could require 2-wheeled streamliners to have landing gear, or have 2 and 3 wheelers in separate classes, but if it (a) can get round the track (b) can be effectively pedalled and (c) has an electric motor, why not let it race?

On the weight limit, 70lb does sound a bit on the anaemic side - maybe a better scheme would be to have a 100lb (45kg) gross bike weight limit and a 20lb (9kg) limit on the battery pack weight? Those who want to be competitive would aim for a lighter bike to get the most out of the battery, and it would allow for a broader spectrum of 'commuter' bikes from the wide e-bike community to take part, without letting the competition be dominated be electric motorcycles with token pedals... I'm guessing lead-acid batteries would be pretty much ruled out under either scheme anyway :lol:

Just my 2c

 

[dogman dan]

For unlimited class racing, the Spooky Tooth Cycles death race happens every spring in Tucson Arizona. Rules are, bike with pedals that work and motor. Plus rules about helmets and how you ride.

 

[madact]

Spooky tooth is cool, yes, but as they say, "Death Race is open to motorized bicycles with mid-frame 2-cycle bike engines. If enough riders attend, we may hold an open class race for any engine type mounted to a bicycle with operable pedals, i.e. Tanaka, Golden Eagle, Mitsubishi, etc."... sure, I expect enough non 2-stroke-cruisers will generally show up, and I don't expect they'd turn you away even if you didn't have electric compatriots, but I have a couple of reservations
- it's not about e-bikes - the e-bikes may also be there, but the stated focus and the image of the event is all about the ICEs
- it's hardly local - well, unless you live in Tucson. Granted, neither is Washington, but if I was going to pony up the cash to ship a bike to the US for a race, it had better be eligible for the main event , rather than being a strange addendum to a 2-wheeler petrol race - or at least an addendum that gets a mention on the publicity, such as it is. Weeeelll, I might still be tempted. Not going to happen this financial year, but who knows.
- is anyone here going to tell me that Spooky Tooth helps promote the image that power-assisted bicycles should not be treated as full motorbikes under the law? (Maybe I'm showing a bit of an Aus. bias here, but we want the regulations loosened up rather than tightened down, downunder)
- from the vids and pictures I've seen, they also seem to have a two-wheeler focus, despite (obviously) being a very non-UCI event - has anyone on these forums shown up with a delta or tadpole lowrider, maybe with a fairing? I know I've seen plenty of powered trikes around the 'nets, but none in Spooky Tooth galleries - are they uninterested, unwelcome, or have I simply not looked hard enough (apologies in advance if it's the latter ) - mind you, I just found the Oregon HPV e-power challenge - those guys look more my speed

 

[Thud]

On topic:
Here is my local Kart track:
http://www.ravennamotorpark.com/
Been meaning to stop by & see how open to bike/moped racing the operators are.(electric or otherwise) I have found a few "Motored" bikers in the area no but really no one (other than myself) is interested in real racing.

As far as rules & specs go....I couldn't care less & am getting older every day waiting for an event. Just let me know when & where. If I can make the trip, I will happily be in the masses attempting to run up front.

 

[John in CR]

Madact,

Once powerful e-bikes start showing up and taking these ICE intended events, that will convert all of those guys to ebikes. At the past one Dogman made a very respectable showing on relatively low power.


WRT Australia's low ebike limits, loosening them is unlikely, and that's what happens when you let pedalists be your voice. The change to push for is an easy and low cost means to become street legal, which I understand isn't even possible at this time.

 

[dogman dan]

Trikes do run in the Death Race. Or have in the past. I was kinda busy running, but I didn't notice any racing this year. But there were some nice ones on display in the pits.

It's totally an ICE race, and The owner of Spooky Tooth Cycles makes his nut selling ICE kits. But he's totally cool, and stoked to have electric competitors attend the race. They even offered to let me skip the heat race to have enough battery to do the main after seeing me in practice. The other competitors also were cool with it, and though they thought I was weird, they did think I was pretty fast for electric. They likely hadn't seem much but I zip and such before. My attitude in the corners helped, I'm sure. I let the fast guys through to lap me, the others had to earn it. Nobody will lap me next year, that's for sure.

 

[Whiplash]

I have a feeling he will loose his "coolness" when our kind are lapping everything he has to offer, and it WILL happen, its just a matter of time. Those ICE's are OLD tech, and they are making about their max effort already, they may have a little they can gain with a good engine builder, but for the most part, they are maxed out, where we are just getting going!!

 

[Thud]

whiplash,
Talk is cheap around here. Dogman know's the score. I have a couple E-bikes that decimate all the neighbor hood scooters & mopeds.....but I still don't have one I feel confident lineing up against a 10hp morini powered super bicycle in a 12 mile race, & there will be more than a handfull at the next event.

The defending DR champ rode a "stock" tuned bike that won by not crashing. FR31's bike was gearing limited to 40-45mph. He won the race on lap averages. There are a couple tallented engine tuners out their working on some serious speed for next spring. Add that they get to practice on the track all year long & we are fighting a long uphill battle.
You will need 50+ on the straights to be a contendor for the next race.

Any time the gassers feel threatn'd, all they need to do is add 5 laps to the race....it is their event after all.

Right now, all electric racers are clearly 2nd class in a heads up compairison. "Off the line" dominace is worthless at the 12 mile mark.

I would perfer that all the smack talk was used as sand to rub into the wounds after they are inflicted
(I am building a morini powerd back-up 8) )

 

[liveforphysics]

The gas bikes have a big weight advantage, a huge energy storage advantage, a reliability advantage, and could have more than 12-13hp on tap from a 50cc, or quite a bit more on alcohol.

We are at a power and energy disadvantage. Or best shot at winning is through proper chassis setup IMO.

 

[Whiplash]

No smack talking, I just watched the videos and the gas bikes are slow to accelerate and I also know that torque is what moves a vehicle, and once the speeds get a little higher, you will have no choice but to slow down a bit in the corners and coming out of those corners, we should be better than they are if we are geared right. The only real disadvantage I see is battery capacity. In a racing situation a "peaky" power band does you no good when competing, I know this from experience. Now I did not know these bikes could put down 12HP but in the real world, that means an electric motored bike setup properly should really only need about 5-6HP to better the 12 due to area under the curve. Look at the Zero bikes, their DS will out accelerate some sport bikes from 10-50MPH and that's with FAR less HP but they have the torque. I am not bashing anything, just trying to analyze the stats.. The batteries will of course be the final word. If we need like 5000-10,000 watts or more output, that is a lot of batteries no doubt! What does that come to, about 30AH @ 72V necessary to do about a 15 minute race? LOL! That's a LOT of LIPO!You might be able to get by with a little less than that though with a good R/C drive or something... Or just steal a pack off the DS!

 

[dogman dan]

Well bring it to the death race whiplash. But don't expect the organizer to stop being cool, he won't. The guy is just that way. You will need a bike to go from 30 mph to 50 mph in 500' to 700' to beat Fairracing 31. AND outcorner the guy on his home track he rides all the time. But it will be major fun to see somebody try.

In last years death race I saw 4 guys running that I will never beat myself. Ever. Well maybe if they crash I will. One that won previously did. Or they could throw a chain across the track. There's the rub, the not crashing part goes exponential once you get faster. At 30 mph in those corners I started sliding the rear tire around, so I was braking down to 25 in most of the corners. A true race tire would be worth it's weight in gold. So it really is not just so simple, build a faster bike. You gotta stay on it for quite a few laps.

But the other 25 guys in the main event, I plan on trying like hell to beat next year. Most of those slow accelerating guys you saw in the videos are not the podium guys, and can be beat. My plan is to take em on cornering with front wheel drive. If I can be coming through faster on every corner, I can own the inside and take em. There will be lots of racing room between the morini bikes, and the regular kit motors for me to run in.

Battery wise, using a 2807, you might need closer to 22-24s to beat the morini's. I don't think I'm fast enough on mine with 20s. So start working on 100v.

 

[AussieJester]

You will need a bike to go from 30 mph to 50 mph in 500' to 700' to beat Fairracing 31. AND outcorner the guy on his home track he rides all the time. But it will be major fun to see somebody try.

My moneys on the Thudster owning them all on his special built two speed race bike...long as he can make it reliable, he has the skillz and the speed to take it too them imo... You will have to block for him DoGMaNz keep those mornini powered bikes at bay for a lap and a half while Thudsters makes his break... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ::CLUNK:: WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

KiM

p.s i should have a 66cc HT Motor at my door in a day or two from ZBox, fitting it up to my bros bike with shift kit tuned pipe ported and polished, i'll showz ya when thats finished how rc bikes dealz with them 66c modded stink bikes DogManZ ... you know a good test, me accelerate to top speed and stop before my bro can get to top speed...reckon i could do it easy hehee

 

[Whiplash]

There you go, we need to get one fast guy and then EVERYONE else gangs up and blocks the others from him so he can tackle the leader! LOL! THAT would be funny! Power in numbers! LOL! ANd hey its not cheating either, the super bike teams do it all the time!

 

[dogman dan]

Yep, you just have to be fast, and not crash. If Thuds running ahead of me by one turn, I'd definitely get hard to pass. Well, that wouldn't be any different anyway.

More likely those fast 4 guys are ahead of my by the end of the first straight, that is the 700' one. Then they'd have to lap me for me to be in the right place. But that isn't happening either.

I hope they race this fall, so I can gather more data on what it will be likely to take to beat these guys. To do better I have to corner faster, and I have to fly off the track to find out where the line you don't cross is. A reliable 30 mph in the tight corners would outrun most of the field in the corners. Only the select few are getting through the tight spots faster than 25. I was getting into the 28 mph area by the end of the main. I'm not kidding when I tell you that very few can take those hairpins above 25 on the bikes they had at the race. Going into those corners faster was what got the eyebrows rising when they saw my ebike. I know they were thinking, " slow bike, thank god" . There was about 20 guys there, you could tell had ridden a lot of 2 wheel stuff.

 

[John in CR]

How about backing into the energy requirement to beat them? How much gas do those gassers burn in a race?

 

[Whiplash]

Good angle, I bet its not even half a gallon judging by the size of the motors..But who knows.. I know my 500cc dirt bike would only use like 2ish gallons on a 30-40 mile ride..WOT the whole time practically!

 

[dogman dan]

Just back from a first test ride at my practice area. I have a maximum 700' straightaway just like the track in Tucscon, with the other two legs being fairly similar to the other two longer straights on the track.

At 20s, with Lyens 12 fet controler on stock settings, I was able to reach at best 38 mph. More often only 35. That was from 25 mph in the corners which I hope to improve on. 9c 2807.

It was also on only 5 ah of 30c turnigy, so I may get a tad faster with less sag. But it just shows, competive in that race with a hubmotor is going to take 100 v or more. 30 s oughta do the trick. But how do you not melt the motor then? The race is about 30 min long.

It's about 10 miles at race speed, 12 laps, + one lap to get to the start grid, and one more back to the pits. So you need to go 11 miles without eating your battery or motor. The last lap you can go slow. The heats were 8 laps.

 

[Demosthenes]

You think a 2806 or even 2805 would make a significant difference Dogman? I've got a spare golden motor with an equivalent kV rating to an 06 that your welcome to have and try out

 

[dogman dan]

I'm sure a faster wind would hit a faster speed eventually. The issue is the 500' average of the longest straights. And more than half the track is ALL corners. When you exit turn 2 for instance, you will rarely be above 25 mph, and then you have 700' to a corner that goes at 30 mph. But at 25 mph, you are already into that sluggish response area of the power curve. The great 0-25 mph performance is absolutely useless to you for 99.9% of the race.

Controller tweaks can do a lot though. I'm set at 45 amps, but like I said, in that sluggish part of the power curve, I never saw much over 35 amps on the CA. So bumping up to 60 amps is the first thing to try, as well as putting throttle to 120% instead of 100. That controller can do 24s though, if I charge to 4.15v.
So no doubt I'll give that a go too. Gotta not melt the motor in 12 miles of hard running though. At some point a hub motor is going to become even stupider than it already is.