MAC vs Bafang
- Thread starter teddy_kgb
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Architectonic
10 kW
I have to agree with everyone else, Paul/Cellman gives great after-sales service.
I recently got one of the new MAC clutches, which look suspiciously similar to the V4 BMC clutches.
CogHog said:
I recently got one of the new MAC clutches, which look suspiciously similar to the V4 BMC clutches.
CogHog
100 W
Architectonic
10 kW
Yes, it looks like the above picture with the larger diameter clutch, only with the thicker/grey MAC gears.
Contact Paul/Cellman for pricing (much cheaper than BMC).
http://em3ev.com/
Contact Paul/Cellman for pricing (much cheaper than BMC).
http://em3ev.com/
CogHog
100 W
Architectonic said:
You mean this one?
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41&product_id=108
Not the same. This is the Old v3 clutch that separates.
History of clutches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kcLWncvx5o
Yes, Chinese copies are cheaper. But not up to date.
Attachments
Architectonic
10 kW
CogHog said:
No, it does not look like that. It looks like the BMC v4 clutch.
CogHog
100 W
Architectonic said:
Wow! I hope your right. I have been selling these blue ones for $90 a piece here in the US. If I could get them for $25 a piece and then sell them here...
Sent him an email already. Oh boy! More profits.
drummerian
100 W
Hi guys, currently waiting on a reply from cellman buy perhaps you can help,
i figure i will order a space clutch and gears while i am paying postage from china! Does anyone know if the replacement clutch he sells is for the new or the old gear type (he sells both types!)
i figure i will order a space clutch and gears while i am paying postage from china! Does anyone know if the replacement clutch he sells is for the new or the old gear type (he sells both types!)
CogHog
100 W
Just got this heads up from Paul.
Hi Robert, I don't stock the BMC V4 clutch but I have supplied a clutch that looks incredibly like the V4 clutch, so I would be very surprised if it isn't 1 and the same thing. These are not yet standard on the Mac, but they will be in the near future, at least for any Mac I supply. I have a few of these clutch available, I will have lots in the future. It does seem to be tougher than the earlier Mac clutch. Due to slight differences with the original Mac clutch there is some detail changes required on the gears to make them compatible, which has delayed them being released more generally. ThanksPaul
Interesting if Architectonic can put this into his hub and test it for better freewheel and noise this would be good on another topic when he's ready.
Hi Robert, I don't stock the BMC V4 clutch but I have supplied a clutch that looks incredibly like the V4 clutch, so I would be very surprised if it isn't 1 and the same thing. These are not yet standard on the Mac, but they will be in the near future, at least for any Mac I supply. I have a few of these clutch available, I will have lots in the future. It does seem to be tougher than the earlier Mac clutch. Due to slight differences with the original Mac clutch there is some detail changes required on the gears to make them compatible, which has delayed them being released more generally. ThanksPaul
Interesting if Architectonic can put this into his hub and test it for better freewheel and noise this would be good on another topic when he's ready.
To be honest, i'm still rocking the old clutch pictured above on an 8T MAC, circa early 2011. I've put >4kW through the motor once, 2600W peaks through it many times, ran it at 1600w-1300w peaks the other 80% of it's life, and the darn thing is still kicking and still freewheels perfectly.
The more recent MAC clutches ( post 2010? ) don't have a problem of separating BTW.
The bigger clutch is stronger of course and the possibility of it failing is maybe 0% but the current clutch really isn't so bad.
The more recent MAC clutches ( post 2010? ) don't have a problem of separating BTW.
The bigger clutch is stronger of course and the possibility of it failing is maybe 0% but the current clutch really isn't so bad.
drummerian
100 W
good to hear nepotronix, I am just hoping to buy spares for the future (since i am already paying postage!)
Any ideas on which size i need, cellman hasn't replied yet and I am keen to order!
Any ideas on which size i need, cellman hasn't replied yet and I am keen to order!
CogHog
100 W
neptronix said:
I'm not sure what you mean by free-r wheeling.. or noisier / quieter.
My MAC freewheeled great, just as good as a regular bike wheel when i bought it, and still does.
The only noise it makes while freewheeling is just the sound of the pawls on the 7 speed gears themselves, no noise inside the motor.
[youtube]JM_rX-toEI4[/youtube]
My MAC freewheeled great, just as good as a regular bike wheel when i bought it, and still does.
The only noise it makes while freewheeling is just the sound of the pawls on the 7 speed gears themselves, no noise inside the motor.
[youtube]JM_rX-toEI4[/youtube]
drummerian
100 W
This would make me believe there are different gear sets:
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41&product_id=109
This is a replacement set of 3 Mac Gears only, WITHOUT clutch. We will include all necessary consumable parts and some grease along with the Clutch. You will likely need circlip pliers and possibly a gear puller to replace the clutch.
Please note the later version clutch requires slightly different gear dimensions, so please select appropriately. Forward a pic of your clutch if you are unseure.
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=41&product_id=109
This is a replacement set of 3 Mac Gears only, WITHOUT clutch. We will include all necessary consumable parts and some grease along with the Clutch. You will likely need circlip pliers and possibly a gear puller to replace the clutch.
Please note the later version clutch requires slightly different gear dimensions, so please select appropriately. Forward a pic of your clutch if you are unseure.
CogHog
100 W
Maybe if you replaced the gears on the Blue clutch set up with the smaller MAC gears it may fit. I believe they are the same Outside diameter as the design of the MAC is a copy of the BMC.
Yes, your video shows that the motor makes some gear noise at start up. Take that noise and cut it in half. That whine-rumm. And I think you will gain a mile an hour or two on the downhill.
Neptronix, IF you watch the video to the end you will see what I mean by free-er wheeling clutch (not cassette). And you will see the thicker assembly issue which can be resolved by leaving out the retaining ring.
DS, am almost tempted to send you this blue clutch I have sitting here so that you can put it in your MAC while you are sitting at home freezing your balls off and your bike is idle. Then you may want to lower your MAC flag to 3/4 mast. PM me.
Yes, your video shows that the motor makes some gear noise at start up. Take that noise and cut it in half. That whine-rumm. And I think you will gain a mile an hour or two on the downhill.
Neptronix, IF you watch the video to the end you will see what I mean by free-er wheeling clutch (not cassette). And you will see the thicker assembly issue which can be resolved by leaving out the retaining ring.
DS, am almost tempted to send you this blue clutch I have sitting here so that you can put it in your MAC while you are sitting at home freezing your balls off and your bike is idle. Then you may want to lower your MAC flag to 3/4 mast. PM me.
CogHog said:
Ok, so here's the deal about the MAC gears. The standard white nylon ones are a little more narrow than the gray ones.
I believe that the gray MAC gears are similar enough to maybe a green BMC gear ( if the green gears are wider than the old nylon ones )
Yes the motors are mostly identical, more like sister motors rather than one being a copy of the other, remember that BMC and MAC were one company at one point.. not sure why they split, but it is what it is.
Thanks for the offer, but don't bother sending me free stuff, i've seen that video now and notice that the BMC clutch freewheels much better but i'm totally happy with the freewheeling of my MAC as it is. It's not like clutch freewheeling matters as much when the freewheel is mechanically locked under power, anyway, which it is, most of the time. Maybe there's a tiny bit more bearing drag? I do doubt the difference in power consumption would be much different. It would be interesting to compare though.
The gears might be a little quieter too.. ok, but is it worth it? How is MAC's Chinese copy.. i dunno. They could literally be the same part. These hub motor manufacturers don't make every single part themselves after all.
I wave the MAC flag because of the bang/buck/reliability factor. If money was no object to me, i'd be running a BMC. I just don't think that the price differential justifies the little increase in quality. BMC v4 motors cost almost double the cash but are nowhere near being double better. You can keep your full mast flag
greenspark
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 176
In January 2013 I had the pleasure to visit the Bafang factory in Suzhou, China, the MAC factory in Shanghai and Cellman (Paul)' s company which is quite close to the MAC factory. Flown home as checked luggage, I purchased both the 12T MAC 500 rear and the 14T Bafang 300W CST motors in 700c rims along with their respective kits. They are different.
The MAC is for the enthusiast. The old joke is that Apple is like the Catholic Church... you do it their way, whereas Microsoft is Protestant... you work it out yourself. Comparably Bafang would be the Catholic kit, Paul's MAC is Protestant. Paul uses Infineon controllers that are programmable and he will set it up the way you want and sell you a USB cable to program it your own way. Bafang controllers cannot be changed except by the factory. Paul's wires are plug-and-play, but the wires are long and you have to figure out where to hide the excess. Bafang uses waterproof cables with a single multi-cable that connects the front stuff to the rear stuff. Not only plug-and-play, but with a few zip ties they look uncluttered and very similar to a factory install.
Bafang's standard controller is 15A, which is insufficient for the hills of New Zealand. When I sent a video to Bafang showing the hill we climb to get anywhere, they sent a K1200 controller programmed to the max 22A (their Z01 controller can go to 25A). Note, all our bikes are 36 or 39v - we sold the 52v Cellman kit on a Gary Fisher MTB... way too powerful (53 kmh on a flat, winding road). The buyer intends to use it for hill climbs, and I can attest that on a dirt, pony-track 25-degree hill it was phenomenal as long as I kept my centre of gravity over the front wheel to keep it from doing a wheelie. In contrast, the 22A 36v K1200 set for 300W hits the sweet spot for the rider who wants to do no more than flatten hills no steeper than 20 on paved roads. You still have to pedal, about the same effort as on the flat, and the motor is a bit quieter than the MAC, although both are quiet.
The MAC with a 6fet 25A Infineon controller and a BMSbattery 36v or the Cellman 39v battery felt stronger, in my case more than I needed, but for most folks on this forum, probably they want that. That same motor with higher amps and volts will take the power and turn a bicycle into a motor bike.
In terms of service, they are very different. Bafang sells mostly OEM motors to European bike vendors who assemble Asian components to their specs, brand it and offer them with names like Greenspark (IT) which is how I got into ebikes in 2011. Bafang kits can be purchased on line, and from what I hear the CST motor is better than their older BRM motor. Note that the CST is rear only, and uses the more modern cassette gear cluster in 7-8-9 configurations (7 need a spacer). The MAC uses the older freewheel screw-on thread type gears. See http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html for the difference.
Paul is the MAC retailer. He is English, he understands western customer service, and when an order goes out, he has his people check everything... I know because I saw them doing it as I was looking at my watch and calculating how long it would take to get to the airport. He also has shipping options, and for those who can plan ahead, his surface mail is excellently priced.
Bafang is now ordering its windings from a supplier that has a machine doing the work. Many of the components that have their brand on it are also from specialist suppliers. So far, I cannot find fault with the products, and talking to an ebike guy who joined me in ordering seven motors, he says the CST is an improvement in quality over the BPM.
What to buy? Both motors will do the job. If you are an enthusiast, buy from Paul. If not, buy the CST and the complete Bafang kit that goes with it.
Bafang or MAC - you won't go wrong with either... unlike some other stuff we tried.
The MAC is for the enthusiast. The old joke is that Apple is like the Catholic Church... you do it their way, whereas Microsoft is Protestant... you work it out yourself. Comparably Bafang would be the Catholic kit, Paul's MAC is Protestant. Paul uses Infineon controllers that are programmable and he will set it up the way you want and sell you a USB cable to program it your own way. Bafang controllers cannot be changed except by the factory. Paul's wires are plug-and-play, but the wires are long and you have to figure out where to hide the excess. Bafang uses waterproof cables with a single multi-cable that connects the front stuff to the rear stuff. Not only plug-and-play, but with a few zip ties they look uncluttered and very similar to a factory install.
Bafang's standard controller is 15A, which is insufficient for the hills of New Zealand. When I sent a video to Bafang showing the hill we climb to get anywhere, they sent a K1200 controller programmed to the max 22A (their Z01 controller can go to 25A). Note, all our bikes are 36 or 39v - we sold the 52v Cellman kit on a Gary Fisher MTB... way too powerful (53 kmh on a flat, winding road). The buyer intends to use it for hill climbs, and I can attest that on a dirt, pony-track 25-degree hill it was phenomenal as long as I kept my centre of gravity over the front wheel to keep it from doing a wheelie. In contrast, the 22A 36v K1200 set for 300W hits the sweet spot for the rider who wants to do no more than flatten hills no steeper than 20 on paved roads. You still have to pedal, about the same effort as on the flat, and the motor is a bit quieter than the MAC, although both are quiet.
The MAC with a 6fet 25A Infineon controller and a BMSbattery 36v or the Cellman 39v battery felt stronger, in my case more than I needed, but for most folks on this forum, probably they want that. That same motor with higher amps and volts will take the power and turn a bicycle into a motor bike.
In terms of service, they are very different. Bafang sells mostly OEM motors to European bike vendors who assemble Asian components to their specs, brand it and offer them with names like Greenspark (IT) which is how I got into ebikes in 2011. Bafang kits can be purchased on line, and from what I hear the CST motor is better than their older BRM motor. Note that the CST is rear only, and uses the more modern cassette gear cluster in 7-8-9 configurations (7 need a spacer). The MAC uses the older freewheel screw-on thread type gears. See http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html for the difference.
Paul is the MAC retailer. He is English, he understands western customer service, and when an order goes out, he has his people check everything... I know because I saw them doing it as I was looking at my watch and calculating how long it would take to get to the airport. He also has shipping options, and for those who can plan ahead, his surface mail is excellently priced.
Bafang is now ordering its windings from a supplier that has a machine doing the work. Many of the components that have their brand on it are also from specialist suppliers. So far, I cannot find fault with the products, and talking to an ebike guy who joined me in ordering seven motors, he says the CST is an improvement in quality over the BPM.
What to buy? Both motors will do the job. If you are an enthusiast, buy from Paul. If not, buy the CST and the complete Bafang kit that goes with it.
Bafang or MAC - you won't go wrong with either... unlike some other stuff we tried.
Even though i am a MAC fanboy, i gotta say something good about the bafang motors.
They appear to have half the poles of the MAC ( maybe less ), which is a very good thing if you want to run 20" or 16" wheels.
A MAC or BMC motor may have too high of an electrical RPM & high stator losses in higher speed 20" and 16" wheels. ( lower efficiency ), so this would be the motor to get for tiny wheel situations.
They appear to have half the poles of the MAC ( maybe less ), which is a very good thing if you want to run 20" or 16" wheels.
A MAC or BMC motor may have too high of an electrical RPM & high stator losses in higher speed 20" and 16" wheels. ( lower efficiency ), so this would be the motor to get for tiny wheel situations.
Arbol
100 W
neptronix said:Even though i am a MAC fanboy, i gotta say something good about the bafang motors.
They appear to have half the poles of the MAC ( maybe less ), which is a very good thing if you want to run 20" or 16" wheels.
A MAC or BMC motor may have too high of an electrical RPM & high stator losses in higher speed 20" and 16" wheels. ( lower efficiency ), so this would be the motor to get for tiny wheel situations.
Is this true? Is the Bafang BPM better than MAC/BMC for smallish wheels (20'' and below)?
spinningmagnets
100 TW
It depends, some controllers have an electrical RPM limit. what voltage do you want to run, what turn-count of motor will you use (its kV), and what controller do you hope to use?
Here are links to teardowns of the MAC and Bafang-BPM, with lots of pics of the guts:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=51313
greenspark
100 W
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2011
- Messages
- 176
When considering the difference between MAC and Bafang, you should also consider the difference between a large manufacturer and the custom attention you receive if you buy through Paul (Cell Man) in China. The MAC factory is near Paul's office, and he has a close working relationship with them. Therefore any questions of comparison should check with him first, rather than popping the lids on two motors and comparing what you see. In contrast, unless you are lucky enough to have a personal connection to the English-speaking personnel at Bafang, or you are a bike maker looking to buy high volume, with the Bafang you buy what they sell through their distribution outlets and hope for the best.Arbol said:
With all Chinese motor makers, do be aware that there is a competitive spirit that results in constant improvement based on observation at trade shows, internet, and feedback. It is a juggle as there always is the tendency to want to reduce the quality of the bill-of-materials to save a penny or two, but at the same time, suppliers and the manufacturer invest in automated tooling that produces better product. Today's e-bikes components are the equivalent of the automobile industry in the 1920's with many vendors competing, and new products rising and falling all the time. The Chinese are beating the world on price (although shipping one-off orders is beginning to bite), and like Made-in-Japan (a curse in the 1960's and better-than-German in some industries a few decades later), we can expect China to see quality rise faster than price. Thus what you compare today, may not be what they ship next month as they keep improving their products. The next big challenge is to see batteries made of a material that does not spontaneously combust so batteries can be taken on planes as checked luggage or ordinary airfreight. This is emerging as a major pain, especially when Apple commandeers all the hazmat flights to get their laptop batteries to market.
Finally, as others noted above, RPM is also governed by "turn" so factor that in when judging torque and efficiency. Also, with the emergence of Chinese crank-drive motors, we may find a game changer, as the crank-drive efficiency is not related to wheel size. It uses the bikes rear gears, and you get to choose the optimal sprocket size to match your terrain. I just installed my second Bafang BBS01 crank-drive motor, this time on a 1951 Raleigh DL Roadster (the policeman and British Army model), and I am exceptionally impressed. The fact that it uses the bike gearing makes a huge difference, resulting in what can be called a leg-transplant as my 100w muscles suddenly match Lance Armstrong's 400W legs, without the drugs. It also does not involve the extra cost of shipping a laced wheel (or having to lace a bare motor when it arrives), and the controller is part of the unit, meaning one less component to bolt on. When installed it is surprisingly subtle, and if the battery is hidden in a handlebar bag or pannier, it becomes a fairly stealth bike. So far in testing, no complaints except in installation if the BB shell is not 335mm diameter all the way, time is lost grinding the shell to enable fit (I am told they may reduce the diameter of the shaft to 333mm). Unlike Paul Cell Man's products, the BBS01 controller is not customer programmable, which means you will need to jailbreak it if you want to change settings. Centre of gravity is low, but it sits above the chain ring, so any crashing damage will trash the chain-ring first, and in any case the unit appears quite strong. We hear there is a 750W unit they are testing, but since we have a 300W legal limit, that is probably not a unit we will test in our country. Should be a winner in the USA however.
The ideal will be if Cell Man agrees to rep them as well (or gets MAC to make a similar crank-drive), tune them to buyer's spec, offer waterproof cables, and then offer surface, low-cost shipping and his outstanding batteries as the kit. I'm trying to persuade him now, but probably will have to wait until his busy season winds down.
Arbol
100 W
Thank you very much for the thorough explanation, it has been helpful.
Then, assuming I am looking at cell_man's products, let me ask you the following (if this is not the right place to ask this question, I will open a new thread, but since the discussion has been quite interesting so far, let me push in this direction to see if I can find more illuminating insights):
How does the Direct Drive compares with the MAC?
I know there are hundreds of threads about this issue, I have searched them. But I believe there are many threads which are old, so they may refer to old products (especially for the MAC, eg blue ...).
If I understand correctly, DD is simpler, more robust, it weighs more, it adds a bit more friction to the bike when running, it accepts more power without reliability problems, it is better for sustained high-speeds.
Instead, the MAC is more complex, a little bit more unreliable (but cell_man argues the current product is more robust), it is lighter, it does not add friction to the bike, there is a limit of 1500W, it is better for stop and go.
Is this description correct?
I am a bit surprised about the price differential. Not because the absolute difference (do $100 to $200 matter in the overall picture here?) but the relative difference: one is almost double the price of the other. And OK, the MAC is lighter and better for stop an go, but the DD is more robust and accepts more power. So, at least from a theoretical point of view, without having tried any of them, it is not obvious which is best.
Then, assuming I am looking at cell_man's products, let me ask you the following (if this is not the right place to ask this question, I will open a new thread, but since the discussion has been quite interesting so far, let me push in this direction to see if I can find more illuminating insights):
How does the Direct Drive compares with the MAC?
I know there are hundreds of threads about this issue, I have searched them. But I believe there are many threads which are old, so they may refer to old products (especially for the MAC, eg blue ...).
If I understand correctly, DD is simpler, more robust, it weighs more, it adds a bit more friction to the bike when running, it accepts more power without reliability problems, it is better for sustained high-speeds.
Instead, the MAC is more complex, a little bit more unreliable (but cell_man argues the current product is more robust), it is lighter, it does not add friction to the bike, there is a limit of 1500W, it is better for stop and go.
Is this description correct?
I am a bit surprised about the price differential. Not because the absolute difference (do $100 to $200 matter in the overall picture here?) but the relative difference: one is almost double the price of the other. And OK, the MAC is lighter and better for stop an go, but the DD is more robust and accepts more power. So, at least from a theoretical point of view, without having tried any of them, it is not obvious which is best.
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