Making new E-Bike, question about power

[Debunker]

Hi there, long time no see.

¡My E-bike was stolen!

The thiefs break down on the building parking and stole it, also break car windows to stole the cd-player and GPS... we are deeply thankfull fot this cultural enrichment, has I'm myself are pesky little white european and I must pay the toll for nazims and bring civiliza.. I mean esclavism and opression to Africa and all that.

Well, police say that most of them are gypsyes, so they'r not exactly newcomers, 600 years on Spain and they still has so much richness to offer, we are truly fortunate.

Now I must build another E-bike so other light beings can steal it, but I found myself asking.. ¿what power is the adequate for me?


I'm gonna live soon on a nice mountain village with less cultural enrichment... (I surely gonna miss that) and there are hills to climb. My weight is about 80 kg/176 pound.


Mi old e-bike has 3000w (Controller limited to 2200) 52v 24ha mid drive, with 100 torque, around 60kmh/37mph and the mid drive means that I can put lower gear and climb easily. Problems... More than one chain break and constant adjutsments.

I want a rear hub motor for the new one, less mechanical parts/problems, but I don't know if it's gonna drain the batteries quicker on climbs...

What I want:

-Power to climb.
-Around 40mhp sustained is more than ok.
-100km+/60 miles range, for real, going high/mid speed and climbing a lot.

My main concern is about battery consumtion, I may prefer a humbre 750/1000watt motor over a 3000 one, even if it struggles a little on hills, if the power consumtion gives me much more range than a 3000watt on 60v. ¿Is there really a big difference on power consumption between motors at the same output?

It seems that there is also a ''magic spot'' on speed, where a 3000wat motor is not gonna give you that much more speed than lesser watts one, just better acceleration/climbing.

I also want to know what is that sweet spot, 750w? 1000w? on what configuration? 48v, 52v, 60v?

 

[Tommm]

Hi there, long time no see.

If you want 40mph cont and 100km range at reasonable speed, you will need will need a big motor (gearless hub 1.5kw-3kw, 6kg+) and a big battery (2kwh+/10kg+). So you will have a bike about 35kg, and the watts you need will also be a result of the requirements (above 3000w).

Since you have been freed from your possessions now, I would take the time to make a plan. Where do you plan to keep it? If keep it the same way, the same thing will probably happen.

If you drop the requirement of 40mph cont to 30mph cont, then the 750-1000w (geared if you want to tackle hills) motor story (pushing 1500-2000w) would be feasible. If you dropped the range requirement from 100kmh throttle only to 100kmh pas assisted (at 30mph or so) your battery would be about (1.2kwh/6kg) your bike would be about 25kg. This way you could push it upstairs or into a lift.

The best bike is the one that doesn't get stolen. :lol:

 

[Debunker]

Hi there, long time no see.

If you want 40mph cont and 100km range at reasonable speed, you will need will need a big motor (gearless hub 1.5kw-3kw, 6kg+) and a big battery (2kwh+/10kg+). So you will have a bike about 35kg, and the watts you need will also be a result of the requirements (above 3000w).

Since you have been freed from your possessions now, I would take the time to make a plan. Where do you plan to keep it? If keep it the same way, the same thing will probably happen.

If you drop the requirement of 40mph cont to 30mph cont, then the 750-1000w (geared if you want to tackle hills) motor story (pushing 1500-2000w) would be feasible. If you dropped the range requirement from 100kmh throttle only to 100kmh pas assisted (at 30mph or so) your battery would be about (1.2kwh/6kg) your bike would be about 25kg. This way you could push it upstairs or into a lift.

The best bike is the one that doesn't get stolen. :lol:

I plan to move on a mountain village where this things happen a lot less, also plan to store the bike inside the house, maybe on a encapsulated corner with trusty tinfoil paper panels to avoid burning the house if the batteries decide to allahu akbar.

I don't really want to pedal, I just want a light motorcycle exent from Government customs, paperwork, revisions and laws, so it has to be somehow discrete, but lightweight and agile to outrun the cops trough the wilderness if needed, cause in my country the legal limit for E-bikes is PAS asisted 250w, and frock that. (they never caught me with my old e-bike)

What I'm seeing is that a less powerfull motor, consumes less battery power (dhu...) and can increase the range, but... if the motor struggles to much on a climb, doesn't that deplete your battery like super fast? and also dangerous to do for to much time?

My new location have a lot of hills, I don't care if it goes slow on them, I just don't want to kill the battery.

So... 750w/1000w, with a 52v 25ha is going to give me around 30/35 mhp on flat, 100km/60 miles range, and acceptable weight and climb?

 

[E-HP]

I plan to move on a mountain village

I don't really want to pedal

My new location have a lot of hills

So... 750w/1000w, with a 52v 25ha is going to give me around 30/35 mhp on flat, 100km/60 miles range, and acceptable weight and climb?

To meet your requirements, it would be good to know what "a lot of hills" means, and specifically the grades.

You can use this tool (expand the map, zoom into your streets, click as many points as you want to see the %grade, distance, elevation, etc. http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html) to figure out the approximate grades of the hills you're talking about. That same information can be plugged into the Grin ebike motor simulator to model the performance, and possibly find a combination that meets your requirements. https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Here's data for your consideration. My ebay MXUS 1000W direct drive hub has a slower winding (ad said 19mph with 48V). With no pedaling, on a fully charged 52V 20Ah battery with 30A BMS, it goes 23mph on flat ground. Riding up the 6% street to my house, it goes 19mph, and 18mph when the grade steepens to 7%. On 16S, it will do 19mph and 20mph respectively. 18S, 22mph and 23mph. 22S, 27mph and 28mph.

I haven't tried 100V yet, but on flat ground, 18S is something over 30mph. 22S or 24S would likely make it to 35mph, but I'm not interested in riding over 30mph.

I like pedaling, so I can't tell you much about range with throttle only, but with the 52V pack I think I can probably get 75 miles using pedal assist, but have only ridden 50 miles in on shot, and the battery was around 50V when I got home (but sagging to 47V up the hill). With pedaling, i regularly climb from the bottom of the hill in my neighborhood to the top, 800ft gain, taking routes that are about 2 miles, so 7.5% average (max 18%), and the motor is just warm to the touch. It would never make it without pedaling on 52V. I may try it using 18S lipos, just to see how well the statorade does, but not sure I want to torture the motor that much.

Basically my 1000W hub motor won't meet your requirements, but a faster motor may not perform on your hills, depending on how steep they are, and your willingness/unwillingness to pedal. Maybe get a lower powered mid drive like TSDZ2 to cut down on the drive train maintenance?

 

[Debunker]

I plan to move on a mountain village

I don't really want to pedal

My new location have a lot of hills

So... 750w/1000w, with a 52v 25ha is going to give me around 30/35 mhp on flat, 100km/60 miles range, and acceptable weight and climb?

To meet your requirements, it would be good to know what "a lot of hills" means, and specifically the grades.

You can use this tool (expand the map, zoom into your streets, click as many points as you want to see the %grade, distance, elevation, etc. http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html) to figure out the approximate grades of the hills you're talking about. That same information can be plugged into the Grin ebike motor simulator to model the performance, and possibly find a combination that meets your requirements. https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Here's data for your consideration. My ebay MXUS 1000W direct drive hub has a slower winding (ad said 19mph with 48V). With no pedaling, on a fully charged 52V 20Ah battery with 30A BMS, it goes 23mph on flat ground. Riding up the 6% street to my house, it goes 19mph, and 18mph when the grade steepens to 7%. On 16S, it will do 19mph and 20mph respectively. 18S, 22mph and 23mph. 22S, 27mph and 28mph.

I haven't tried 100V yet, but on flat ground, 18S is something over 30mph. 22S or 24S would likely make it to 35mph, but I'm not interested in riding over 30mph.

I like pedaling, so I can't tell you much about range with throttle only, but with the 52V pack I think I can probably get 75 miles using pedal assist, but have only ridden 50 miles in on shot, and the battery was around 50V when I got home (but sagging to 47V up the hill). With pedaling, i regularly climb from the bottom of the hill in my neighborhood to the top, 800ft gain, taking routes that are about 2 miles, so 7.5% average (max 18%), and the motor is just warm to the touch. It would never make it without pedaling on 52V. I may try it using 18S lipos, just to see how well the statorade does, but not sure I want to torture the motor that much.

Basically my 1000W hub motor won't meet your requirements, but a faster motor may not perform on your hills, depending on how steep they are, and your willingness/unwillingness to pedal. Maybe get a lower powered mid drive like TSDZ2 to cut down on the drive train maintenance?

Thank you for sharing your data.

The location is the mountains, plain and simple... a lot of uphills and offroad.

I currently have an eye on that kit:

https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4000838391101.html?spm=a219c.12010612.8148356.11.a16a53e8j18bTs


On 52v 19.2 1000w motor.
Underpowered? it claims 100nw of force and its geared, teoretically outperforms direct drive on power but not speed. For that price they even give you the battery wich is a big plus.

 

[E-HP]

I currently have an eye on that kit:

https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4000838391101.html?spm=a219c.12010612.8148356.11.a16a53e8j18bTs


On 52v 19.2 1000w motor.
Underpowered? it claims 100nw of force and its geared, teoretically outperforms direct drive on power but not speed. For that price they even give you the battery wich is a big plus.

That looks like it could work. I've seen a few threads with that motor but not much about how it performs. What size wheel?

 

[Debunker]

I currently have an eye on that kit:

https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4000838391101.html?spm=a219c.12010612.8148356.11.a16a53e8j18bTs


On 52v 19.2 1000w motor.
Underpowered? it claims 100nw of force and its geared, teoretically outperforms direct drive on power but not speed. For that price they even give you the battery wich is a big plus.

That looks like it could work. I've seen a few threads with that motor but not much about how it performs. What size wheel?

26''

I could help knowing how it performs the motor.

Also I'm a bit suspicious on the battery, of course for that price their not gonna be from a trusted brand. I see the company ChamRider sells more of those cheap batteries, they claim 800 life cycles and offers 6 month to 1 year warranty, any experiences?

 

[dogman dan]

I might be able to answer one of your questions with out hill data.

A mid drive that drives the pedals chain can climb a very steep hill at very low power used, this is because you can shift down, and ride up it slow. like 5 mph Riding up it fast costs more power, obviously. A typical hub motor must ride up it faster than 5 mph, usually about 15 mph is the lowest speed you can go without just turning too much of your power into heat, and if you are too underpowered, actually melting the motor if the hill is long enough.

On a typical steep grade highway, 8% is the max for continuous grade. More on the switchbacks, but most of the road tries to stay below 10% for sure. Driveways, local roads, log roads, and particularly mine roads can be stupidly steep. For those, you really need a mid drive. To get up 8% grades at 15 mph reliably, 1500-2000 w on a hub motor works real good. Larger hub motors have more copper, and even if running like a heater briefly, they take more time to warm up to overheat. up to 400 pounds total load is fine.

But, you know already, if you haul ass around at 35 mph much, its going to eat your battery. 2000w going out your battery drains a 1000wh battery in about 20 -30 min, depending on how much of that 1000w just cooks off your battery.

So your answer is yes, you need a huge battery, which will help a lot with discharge rate of each cell anyway, and yes it will go fast when you haul ass up hills. Build a hubmotor bike with a larger motor than typical in the 1000w kits, and 72v is what you need to go 40 mph. Think in terms of 72v, 40 amps controllers, for 3000w and 40 mph. 48v will get you 30 mph and 2000w.

 

[Tommm]

I plan to move on a mountain village where this things happen a lot less, also plan to store the bike inside the house, maybe on a encapsulated corner with trusty tinfoil paper panels to avoid burning the house if the batteries decide to allahu akbar.

Just get a steel ammo box, and a removable battery. Drill a hole for the wire and put the battery in the box when charging. They are dirt cheap. You can put a stone tile under the box.

My new location have a lot of hills, I don't care if it goes slow on them, I just don't want to kill the battery.

So... 750w/1000w, with a 52v 25ha is going to give me around 30/35 mhp on flat, 100km/60 miles range, and acceptable weight and climb

48v 24ah kit from these ones, with 48v 40a controller (2000w). If you multiply the voltage by Ah of the kits the 48v kits have a much higher Wh capacity than the 52v one. They also have an extra parallel group so lower voltage sag.
Geared (better for hill, smaller)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000838391101.html
Non geared (no moving parts)
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32817059298.html

About the battery quality, they use 4800mah liitokala 9.6a cells, possibly samsung 48g rewraps, you can look at their listings of batteries and decide for yourself from the reviews, 4.9 rating from 54 reviews.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000772417486.html

They are all 5 star with 1 guy saying it the connector melted from 1500w, this is fixable with a bypass. The wire would come out the bottom of the battery as opposed to the base of the plate. You can sill have it removable that way, and use an xt90-s. I would recommend you open any hailong pack after getting it to check if some spot weld has came apart and inspect it for rattling. I do this to my unitpackpower batteries and stuff some extra padding.

I have a geared kit from here in the mail, but from reviews it seems like they use ground shipping (I asked and they don't provide air to EU) so it is likely another month or so.
Also the lcd8 upgrade is out of stock, and don't bother with the charger upgrade for $35, you can buy a complete new one and faster one for about the same.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33035094083.html

 

[MadRhino]

DD hub builds can be good climbers, especially now that big hubs are available in a large variety of windings. The problem is the power used for climbing, not for its efficiency but for the rider keeping himself from using it all the time. When you can feed 20+ kw in acceleration to a big DD hub, it is hard not to use this power at every corner. Even when I temper myself, my bikes are not doing a long range with 1.5 kw/h battery capacity, because riding half power is still a lot of power, and half speed is still fast.

Geared hubs of course, are better climbers than low power DD hubs. Yet their speed is low, like bb drives in the same situation. Climbing fast has a cost.

 

[HK12K]

If it were me: QS205 v3 50h, probably 4t. 72v nominal battery pack capable of at least 100 amps continuous, but the more the merrier. Take your pick on controller. Nucular would be my first choice, if you don't mind waiting a year for it to be built, but anything handy that can push some amps should do for now.

The bigger motor will have more mass and more copper fill and should resist overheating better than a smaller one, especially under your intended usage scenario.

 

[goatman]

I plan to move on a mountain village

I don't really want to pedal

My new location have a lot of hills

So... 750w/1000w, with a 52v 25ha is going to give me around 30/35 mhp on flat, 100km/60 miles range, and acceptable weight and climb?

To meet your requirements, it would be good to know what "a lot of hills" means, and specifically the grades.

You can use this tool (expand the map, zoom into your streets, click as many points as you want to see the %grade, distance, elevation, etc. http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html) to figure out the approximate grades of the hills you're talking about. That same information can be plugged into the Grin ebike motor simulator to model the performance, and possibly find a combination that meets your requirements. https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

Here's data for your consideration. My ebay MXUS 1000W direct drive hub has a slower winding (ad said 19mph with 48V). With no pedaling, on a fully charged 52V 20Ah battery with 30A BMS, it goes 23mph on flat ground. Riding up the 6% street to my house, it goes 19mph, and 18mph when the grade steepens to 7%. On 16S, it will do 19mph and 20mph respectively. 18S, 22mph and 23mph. 22S, 27mph and 28mph.

I haven't tried 100V yet, but on flat ground, 18S is something over 30mph. 22S or 24S would likely make it to 35mph, but I'm not interested in riding over 30mph.

I like pedaling, so I can't tell you much about range with throttle only, but with the 52V pack I think I can probably get 75 miles using pedal assist, but have only ridden 50 miles in on shot, and the battery was around 50V when I got home (but sagging to 47V up the hill). With pedaling, i regularly climb from the bottom of the hill in my neighborhood to the top, 800ft gain, taking routes that are about 2 miles, so 7.5% average (max 18%), and the motor is just warm to the touch. It would never make it without pedaling on 52V. I may try it using 18S lipos, just to see how well the statorade does, but not sure I want to torture the motor that much.

Basically my 1000W hub motor won't meet your requirements, but a faster motor may not perform on your hills, depending on how steep they are, and your willingness/unwillingness to pedal. Maybe get a lower powered mid drive like TSDZ2 to cut down on the drive train maintenance?

Thank you for sharing your data.

The location is the mountains, plain and simple... a lot of uphills and offroad.

I currently have an eye on that kit:

https://es.aliexpress.com/item/4000838391101.html?spm=a219c.12010612.8148356.11.a16a53e8j18bTs


On 52v 19.2 1000w motor.
Underpowered? it claims 100nw of force and its geared, teoretically outperforms direct drive on power but not speed. For that price they even give you the battery wich is a big plus.

heres that motor, mxus xf19

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103169&start=25

and this is like a mxus xf40 DD

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=82383