Matching Battery to Controller

[Sam]

I have been an avid fan of this forum for almost a year but this is my first posting. You guys who share your experience and knowledge are really appreciated and helped guide my first purchase of a electric bike kit last year.

I am at the point of ordering one of the new 36V 350W Fusins kits (15A controller). I'm still a bit confused about how to make sure a LifePo4 battery I get will be well matched to the controller, and not have a shortened life. I don't want to have to 'nurse' the bike but rather leave it up to the controller to protect the battery adequately. Assuming I am not concerned about range but only battery life, will a Ping 36V 10AH battery be sufficient? Also how does one get a handle on power comparisons between kits of different rated wattages when there seems to be no standard way to determine this?

Thanks.

...But the battery would be a better match for a gearmotor kit with 15 amp controller. If you haul ass all over the place and climb big hills, it will last a lot shorter time. If you can limit your cruising speed to about 20 mph it will really help. Lotsa kits have been shipped with 10 ah batteries, but most people don't ride like the guys on ES do.

 

[yopappamon]

The ping 36v 10ah battery is 1c rated, 10ah average discharge rate.

Specifications:
Suitable Wattage of Motor: up to 400 Watt, 300 Watt suggested
Applications: E-Bike, Electric Bike, E-Scooter, Electric Scooter
Voltage: 36 Volts
Capacity: 10 Amp Hours
Dimension: 150x105x150 mm / 5.9x4.1x5.9 inches
Weight: 3.70 kg / 8.2 lbs
Charging Voltage: 45-46 Volts
Charging Current: <5 Amps
Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 25-30 Amps
Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles. Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles, >70% capacity after 3000 cycles. (<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

If you run at 15 amps regularly it will exceed the battery rating.

You might consider a 15ah 1c battery or find a 10ah with a higher c rating.

 

[Grizzlybear]

Hi Guys
if you look at the specifications again, it says :-

Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps

Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps

The V2.5 is much improved over the earlier ones, I run a Crystalyte 5306 on one of these for a while, and then used the battery on another lower powered bike, the battery is a year old now and it's done about 4000 miles between the two bikes. It still performs as new.

Griz

 

[dogman dan]

While I agree that a 10 ah ping is theoretically big enough, I still think a 15 ah is a good idea if you can afford it. Any battery lasts longer when used at a lower c rate, and the money should be worth the investment. And also, the battery should last years, and you could get a 20 amp motor later if you chose to.

 

[dumbass]

While I agree that a 10 ah ping is theoretically big enough, I still think a 15 ah is a good idea if you can afford it. Any battery lasts longer when used at a lower c rate, and the money should be worth the investment. And also, the battery should last years, and you could get a 20 amp motor later if you chose to.

I agree. The specs counterdicte themself. "rated discharge 10a", Max Continuous discharge 20a" and Max Discharge current 40a". Ok, I can understand the max discharge being 40a intended for ocational surges. But the discharging cutoff protection is only 25a. What's with that? And how can you "RATE" a pack at 10a and then say cont. runnig it at 20a is ok? And if you look at the life rating it's based on a 1c discahge which for this pack is only 10a. Not to mention that most of the "life cycle" is based on a SINGLE cell not the pack. So who's BSing who? I am not attacking Pick packs just pointing out that the specs on most packs are very misleading. But in the end that is a 1c (10a) pack and you will kill it with a 15a controller. .

To me there is no clear specs on most battery packs and you are money ahead getting more then you think you need. Especially if your on a tight budget and can't aford to do it over when you burn the pack.

Bob


Specifications:
Suitable Wattage of Motor: up to 400 Watt, 300 Watt suggested
Applications: E-Bike, Electric Bike, E-Scooter, Electric Scooter
Voltage: 36 Volts
Capacity: 10 Amp Hours
Dimension: 150x105x150 mm / 5.9x4.1x5.9 inches
Weight: 3.70 kg / 8.2 lbs
Charging Voltage: 45-46 Volts
Charging Current: <5 Amps
Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 25-30 Amps
Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles. Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles, >70% capacity after 3000 cycles. (<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

 

[Grizzlybear]

While I agree that a 10 ah ping is theoretically big enough, I still think a 15 ah is a good idea if you can afford it. Any battery lasts longer when used at a lower c rate, and the money should be worth the investment. And also, the battery should last years, and you could get a 20 amp motor later if you chose to.

I agree. The specs counterdicte themself. "rated discharge 10a", Max Continuous discharge 20a" and Max Discharge current 40a". Ok, I can understand the max discharge being 40a intended for ocational surges. But the discharging cutoff protection is only 25a. What's with that? And how can you "RATE" a pack at 10a and then say cont. runnig it at 20a is ok? And if you look at the life rating it's based on a 1c discahge which for this pack is only 10a. Not to mention that most of the "life cycle" is based on a SINGLE cell not the pack. So who's BSing who? I am not attacking Pick packs just pointing out that the specs on most packs are very misleading. But in the end that is a 1c (10a) pack and you will kill it with a 15a controller. .

To me there is no clear specs on most battery packs and you are money ahead getting more then you think you need. Especially if your on a tight budget and can't aford to do it over when you burn the pack.

Bob


Specifications:
Suitable Wattage of Motor: up to 400 Watt, 300 Watt suggested
Applications: E-Bike, Electric Bike, E-Scooter, Electric Scooter
Voltage: 36 Volts
Capacity: 10 Amp Hours
Dimension: 150x105x150 mm / 5.9x4.1x5.9 inches
Weight: 3.70 kg / 8.2 lbs
Charging Voltage: 45-46 Volts
Charging Current: <5 Amps
Rated Discharging Amperage: 10 Amps
Max Continuous Discharging Amperage: 20 Amps
Maximum Discharging Current: 40 Amps
Discharging Cut-off Protection: 25-30 Amps
Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles. Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles, >70% capacity after 3000 cycles. (<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

It means that you get 10 amp hours when the battery is dicharged at a rate of 10 amps, LIFEPO4 batteries have a Peukert's constant of almost 1, and therfore don't suffer loss of capacity at higher discharge rates, like a lead acid battery would.

Like I said, I've run a Crystalyte 5306 on a 36 volt 10 Ah V2.5 Ping, it didn't kill it.

Griz

 

[dogman dan]

That's amazing. Ran that x5 how far? how fast? how long? with what controller? Any battery might take it for short enough rides. Now you have me real curious.

I agree, the rated discharge is talking about the discharge rate used in the tests for capacity and cycle life. So you know if you stay at 1c, or thereabouts, you'll be likely to have a chance of seeing the cycle life they claim. I wish we had some real data on cycle life of at least a single cell, when used at 2c continuous, and 80% discharge depth. That's closer to many peoples real world use if they buy the 10 ah pack.

I get a bit biased in my advice, because I see one of the primary reasons to buy ping is the smallish size package makes carrying more range practical. I really like the 48v 15 ah size or 36v 20 ah size. I rarely do a ride of less than 10 ah used. I just want to keep riding and riding. I do live quite a ways from the center of town, so I need the range.

 

[yopappamon]

I'm not sure we are saying different things.

To get the rated life you use the rated discharge, 10 a
Max continuous discharge of 20 amp, it will work at this discharge but you might not see the rated life.
Max discharge current 40 amps, the most you can see out of the pack before you kill it.

It looks perfectly capable of running a 15 amp controller, you just risk a shorter life. How much shorter, who knows.

At least that's the best sense I can make out of those ratings.

 

[Grizzlybear]

That's amazing. Ran that x5 how far? how fast? how long? with what controller? Any battery might take it for short enough rides. Now you have me real curious.

I agree, the rated discharge is talking about the discharge rate used in the tests for capacity and cycle life. So you know if you stay at 1c, or thereabouts, you'll be likely to have a chance of seeing the cycle life they claim. I wish we had some real data on cycle life of at least a single cell, when used at 2c continuous, and 80% discharge depth. That's closer to many peoples real world use if they buy the 10 ah pack.

I get a bit biased in my advice, because I see one of the primary reasons to buy ping is the smallish size package makes carrying more range practical. I really like the 48v 15 ah size or 36v 20 ah size. I rarely do a ride of less than 10 ah used. I just want to keep riding and riding. I do live quite a ways from the center of town, so I need the range.

I ran the X5 for about a month on the Ping whilst I was waiting for my "proper" battery, I got 50+ amps peak out of it according to my Cycle Analyst, I think the BMS is a bit slow to limit maximum amps. The little battery is still working fine now on my daily ride 1 year later, even though I totally abused it in it's early life. As you know the X5 doesn't really sparkle at 36 volts, a 5306 at 36 volts max speed 18 mph(drawing about 6 amps), not bad on the hills though but no match for a geared motor. The benefit fo running a small battery is that you can have a very light bike (not with an X5 though).

In contrast I trashed a 48 volt 20 Ah V1 ping in a very short space of time with a Puma motor.

My new bikes have the A123 M1 cells, they are truely amazing. A 2.3 Ah pack can easily run an X5!

Griz

 

[dumbass]

While I agree that a 10 ah ping is theoretically big enough, I still think a 15 ah is a good idea if you can afford it. Any battery lasts longer when used at a lower c rate, and the money should be worth the investment. And also, the battery should last years, and you could get a 20 amp motor later if you chose to.

To me there is no clear specs on most battery packs and you are money ahead getting more then you think you need. Especially if your on a tight budget and can't aford to do it over when you burn the pack.

Bob


Specifications:

Lifecycle of the whole pack: >85% capacity after 1000 cycles. Lifecycle of single cell: >85% capacity after 1500 cycles, >70% capacity after 3000 cycles. (<1C discharge rate and <1C charge rate)

It means that you get 10 amp hours when the battery is dicharged at a rate of 10 amps, LIFEPO4 batteries have a Peukert's constant of almost 1, and therfore don't suffer loss of capacity at higher discharge rates, like a lead acid battery would.

Like I said, I've run a Crystalyte 5306 on a 36 volt 10 Ah V2.5 Ping, it didn't kill it.

Griz

As I said there are no clear specs on most batteries. Therefore, they are open to anyones interpertation and as long as a manufacture rates it's cycly life based on 1C I call those cells 1c. So in this case 1C = 10a. I'm happy to hear you were able to abuse a pack and it's still going for you but I think it's over stating what all packs will do under simular or worse situatiions. But it's just my opinion and yours is yours.

Bob

 

[Grizzlybear]

I can only report my experience, I pushed it way beyond it's spec. The original query was "will it run a 350 watt motor", the answer...... YES

Griz

 

[dumbass]

I can only report my experience, I pushed it way beyond it's spec. The original query was "will it run a 350 watt motor", the answer...... YES

Griz

Not to pick at your words but I think you need to re-read the posting because that's not at all what sam said or asked. On the contrary he was very specific in stating he was confused and wanted a good match for his controller and does not want to shorten the life of the battery.

 

[Grizzlybear]

I can only report my experience, I pushed it way beyond it's spec. The original query was "will it run a 350 watt motor", the answer...... YES

Griz

Not to pick at your words but I think you need to re-read the posing because that's not at all what sam said or asked. On the contrary he was very specific in stating he was confused and and wanted a good match for his controller and does not want to shorten the life of the battery.

"I am at the point of ordering one of the new 36V 350W Fusins kits (15A controller). I'm still a bit confused about how to make sure a LifePo4 battery I get will be well matched to the controller, and not have a shortened life. I don't want to have to 'nurse' the bike but rather leave it up to the controller to protect the battery adequately. Assuming I am not concerned about range but only battery life, will a Ping 36V 10AH battery be sufficient? Also how does one get a handle on power comparisons between kits of different rated wattages when there seems to be no standard way to determine this?"

Answer :- YES, in my experience, what about your experience?

The benefit of a small pack is a light bike, the 36 volt 10 Ah Ping will take him up to 30 miles, if he needs more then ok, it's enough for me.

Griz

 

[dumbass]

I can only report my experience, I pushed it way beyond it's spec. The original query was "will it run a 350 watt motor", the answer...... YES

Griz

Not to pick at your words but I think you need to re-read the posing because that's not at all what sam said or asked. On the contrary he was very specific in stating he was confused and and wanted a good match for his controller and does not want to shorten the life of the battery.

"I am at the point of ordering one of the new 36V 350W Fusins kits (15A controller). I'm still a bit confused about how to make sure a LifePo4 battery I get will be well matched to the controller, and not have a shortened life. I don't want to have to 'nurse' the bike but rather leave it up to the controller to protect the battery adequately. Assuming I am not concerned about range but only battery life, will a Ping 36V 10AH battery be sufficient? Also how does one get a handle on power comparisons between kits of different rated wattages when there seems to be no standard way to determine this?"

Answer :- YES, in my experience, what about your experience?

The benefit of a small pack is a light bike, the 36 volt 10 Ah Ping will take him up to 30 miles, if he needs more then ok, it's enough for me.

Griz

I admit my experience is only made up of the past 3 years of ebiking running a combo of 8 SLAs and Thunder Sky lifepo4 packs. While I don't claim to be an expert on anything I do have some experience and even better I can read and use my judgement.

What ever sam decides to buy I hope it works well for him and his pack gives him pleasure without problems.

 

[Grizzlybear]

Bob
I recommend that everyone should use the A123 batteries, but I know that it's not a practical option for people without the skills to put the battery packs together. The Ping batteries are not bad, and will suit most people's needs, unless they are running a very high power motor.

Griz

 

[dumbass]

Bob
I recommend that everyone should use the A123 batteries, but I know that it's not a practical option for people without the skills to put the battery packs together. The Ping batteries are not bad, and will suit most people's needs, unless they are running a very high power motor.

Griz

Griz,

We have found something we agree on. While I am not a user or fan of Ping packs I know many people have had great success with them. The only thing I don't like about Ping packs is their sodered together and if there's a failure you have to send them back to China. This can be very expensive. A123 are from what I know are the best made lifepo4 cells made but a lot of people including me don't want to pay the big bucks. But if you have the bucks they are the way to go. I tend to like the Thunder Skycells because they are resonablly priced and have threaded connections. But there no for everyone. A 36v 20ah pack is $360+ delivery and LVC/HVC or BMS and charger. The best thing is if you have a problem it's handled in the USA.

 

[Grizzlybear]

Bob
I recommend that everyone should use the A123 batteries, but I know that it's not a practical option for people without the skills to put the battery packs together. The Ping batteries are not bad, and will suit most people's needs, unless they are running a very high power motor.

Griz

Griz,

We have found something we agree on. While I am not a user or fan of Ping packs I know many people have had great success with them. The only thing I don't like about Ping packs is their sodered together and if there's a failure you have to send them back to China. This can be very expensive. A123 are from what I know are the best made lifepo4 cells made but a lot of people including me don't want to pay the big bucks. But if you have the bucks they are the way to go. I tend to like the Thunder Skycells because they are resonablly priced and have threaded connections. But there no for everyone. A 36v 20ah pack is $360+ delivery and LVC/HVC or BMS and charger. The best thing is if you have a problem it's handled in the USA.

It is possible to repair Ping batteries, I did it on my first one a V1 pack, Li Ping is a good bloke, he will send replacement cells.

If people are willing and able to learn the skills, then constructing an A123 battery pack is not that expensive, the reward is outstanding!

Griz

 

[dumbass]

It is possible to repair Ping batteries, I did it on my first one a V1 pack, Li Ping is a good bloke, he will send replacement cells.

If people are willing and able to learn the skills, then constructing an A123 battery pack is not that expensive, the reward is outstanding!

Griz[/quote]

No argument on ether point. The problem is a lot of people don't want or can't make the repairs. Personally I have no problem with it but would rather just loosen a bolt and remove a bad cell.

 

[Dave Sloan]

Getting back to matching battery to controller - I think that the battery BMS is the most important feature. I have controllers that will easily out amp the pack but the BMS cuts the power at the point where the drain gets too high. I have two 20ah 48v (55v average) LiFePO4 packs that I alternately use - the max before cutout is 1450 watts or about 25 amps and they both have lasted a year with no loss in capacity. I have driven them hard and gotten 30 miles at an average speed of 20 mph and 18 amp hours and I can go 60 miles at an average of 12 mph and 18 amp hours. Normal driving is somewhere in between. The controllers that I have used are infineon 6 FET - 3 versions - and two golden motors cruise controllers plus a magic pie - The golden motors cruise controllers are the most used and the one I use most is the 45 amp controller with one of two 9c hubs. If it is throttled too much the BMS will cutout but you just get used to the point of cutout. I have used the 45 amp controller with both batteries to get more amps but the controller would probably eventually burn out and the difference in performance is not that much. I would much rather overrate the controller and make sure the BMS cuts out before any battery damage occurs. I do not know what technology my batteries are - I just bought the batteries with BMS and charger from VPower - only problem so far is that one of the chargers failed.

 

[macmac-001]

Good day, I'm also curious about battery compatibility. may I ask if a battery with 48v 10A discharge current can be compatible with a controller with 48v 20A operating current (considering the controller and motor are all rated 1000 watts, and regardless of battery capacity)? I don't want to end up burning in the middle of the street due to buying incompatible battery

 

[amberwolf]

See here for an answer to essentially the same question:

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/t...vise-regarding-controller-and-battery.123068/