Modifying Norco frame.. need advice

[iovaykind]

So I'm trying to get the controller inside the frame, which looks like this:

The controller fits perfectly into one area:

The problem is that the frame is aluminum. Is the only way I'll be able to do anything to the frame is by tig welding? I'd like to be able to have one side able to be accessed because I want to throw 16s1p lipo into it as well, and will need to access the balance plugs every once in awhile. Advice please?

 

[MadRhino]

Those older Norco frames were overbuilt, yet I wouldn't cut so much off it as to fit this controller and batteries.
If you build on it welding alu, it will need to be heat treated after, for the welding will affect the hardness of the alloy.

 

[John in CR]

Which controller is that, the 24fet? My 18fet controller from them would fit much better, and even a 12fet with 4110's will drive your settings. The case for my 18 is 3.5"x 8.7" to give you an idea. The bottom line is get a controller that fits better before hacking into a good frame. Also, something to consider is the mosfets on the narrower controllers are mounted to the side of the case via their heat sink bar, so air flow over the sides is better for cooling. Wherever the line of screw is is the area you want cooling air to flow the most.

John

 

[iovaykind]

Does the structural integrity of the frame come from a skeleton or is the frame made to distribute the stress to all parts of the aluminum? I'd like to cut a rectangle the size of the controller, and "slide" it into place, while having all the wiring inside the frame which sounds hollow. I will keep the controller in place with silicone, and if possible, I'd like to slide the batteries into place in the frame as well which will be padded up with foam. Basically I'd like to "unhollow" this thing out, so that it will still look as stock as possible.

John, this is a 15fet with 4410's. I got it custom made for my specs, and it provides all the current I want without even getting warm.

 

[John in CR]

In that case I'd look at dumping the controller case and making that part of the frame the case for the controller with a good thermal pathway from the heat sink bar to the frame itself. If the grey panels enclose a hollow space with the top and bottom sections being channels as opposed to close tubing, then there's plenty of space.

Going that route pick up a spare identical controller now to keep it simple in case of a failure down the road.

 

[iovaykind]

Good advice John. That should help the controller sit in there quite nicely. I'm hoping that taking out about 2/3 of that top gray part which says VPS to slide the controller in won't hurt the integrity of the frame. Going to try and do some more research before I go hacking up the frame and then regretting it later on.

 

[John in CR]

Drill a fairly small hole and go exploring with a coat hanger.

 

[iovaykind]

Looks like the entire thing is hollow. Drilled a hole and was able to reach very far in, a flick to any part of the frame gave a loud resonance throughout the entire frame. Looks like the black part is the structural part, while the gray parts are rather thin. Will try and fit 16s 5ah in the frame with the ability to add more packs via a ton tube bag if need be.

 

[whereswally606]

Love the Idea iovay. I have two norcos this one above a dh team circa 2002 vintage and a norco savage which i intend to put my 80100 with burties optical board onto. I dont like the idea of cutting these frames but i see the merit in the idea of making the bike look as normal as possible and keeping the weight low. tenchs mid drive is a bighit and those are not so different to our norcos. he is a motorbike engineer and gunsmith so hes got some mad fabrication skills. still shows you whats possible when you go for it. My controller is cable tied to the other side at the moment, i'll finish it one day.

regards Andy

 

[iovaykind]

Cool build Andy. The main reason I'm trying to keep this as stealth as possible is that I don't want to always take the batteries off the bike for charging, or when I get to school. It can be quite a hassle, I just don't want to worry about getting stuff stolen.

Taking the casing off the controller made the controller considerably smaller. It will definitely fit inside the frame, and can probably be mounted with some silicone to the frame.

I know the bottom of the frame is flat, and can probably take 16s 5ah there, while I want to fit another 5ah inside the frame. Hopefully if all goes well, I can fit 16s10ah in a nice and stealth build.

 

[whereswally606]

Ill be impressed if you do.

18x2x4 = 144

16x2x5 = 160

basically from my very rough calculations iovay you want to put more lipo inside the frame than i have hanging off the bottom, all i can think is good luck on that. Ill be interested if it works. also having it secure is going to be another issue. If some ways having a detachable battery is a good idea. If your lipo goes supernova you can ditch it and pedal away. at least your left with a bike afterwards. Plus being able to take mohammed (the battery) to the mountain (your charge point) is also easier with a detachable one.

having said all of the above, please do it, stealth has many advantages too. you can always make you charge leads longer and the battery will be worth more than the bike probably.

 

[iovaykind]

I measured and it seems that for the last 4s pack I'll have to split it into two in order to fit into the frame. 12s fits perfectly fine, its just the last bit that will take some ingenuity. Also going to try and build an adapter for the balance plugs so that a printer cable plug can be mounted on the side of the frame for easy balancing.

The empty spaces I'll fill with space filling foam after all is settled so that there won't be issues with things moving around inside the frame. It should also help with providing some extra padding.

The controller is now without a case. I'll have to seal it somehow to keep it from shorting with the aluminum frame correct?

 

[dogman dan]

Long legged sucker that I am, I'd mount that controller right on top of the frame, under the seat just above where the decal says dro. Or, like I did on my mongoose dirt bike, carry just the controller on a rear rack. Keeps it dry, and some of my back. That frame is perfect for bolting on saddle bag style lipo boxes, just like I did on the mongoose. Nothing wrong with a fork carry though, for a small10 ah pack. I just prefer the saddle bag style.

No good for stealth or security though, my bike is a dirt ride. Got no need for stealth and I don't leave it anywhere.

Street rides carry the battery in a lockable steel box on a rear rack or in the frame triangle.

No reason saddle bag carry battery boxes can't be made lockable though, and a rear rack mount controller can go into a ventilated metal container.

 

[John in CR]

iovaykind, I can't wait to see what you pull off. Hopefully you come up with some stuff for me to copy.

My stealth build (once I finally get to it) will be the batteries as an integral part of the bike's structure. We already have the batteries soldered into longitudinal strings 10s long. We have 28p10s of Konion VT's (self balancing 18650 LiMN tested at 1.35ah each and capable of over 10C) already in 3p and 4p by 10s strings. We already started the fiberglass wrap that will net us 2 roundish tubes of 37V19ah weighing about 6kg each, and the tubes will form the primary tubes of a bike frame. Even with the 3.5" diameter solid core with fiberglass/epoxy wrap, we want it as rigid as possible to avoid any stress at all on the battery tabs, so the final layer will be carbon fiber, which should make it incredibly rigid and strong. With my son leaving this week, it looks like it's up to me as to how to turn it into an ebike. It should be a good heart of rainy season project.

John

 

[iovaykind]

So I just spent the past five hours working on the bike.. time really flies when you're doing menial tasks like soldering. Here's how the controller fits inside the frame:

I had to reconstruct the batteries to 3s blocks instead of 4s because 4s wouldn't fit inside the frame. This is a very annoying task. And I also have to build a printer cable port so that I can balance charge my packs if needed, that's a lot of work still needing to be done. Can anyone suggest a printer cable thing that has at least 17 pins? Not too many either, I'd like it to fit in the little space left in the frame.

All I did after taking a break from battery work was wire up the throttle, CA, and misc switches like cruise and three speed.

Here's the issue I'm having though.. wiring it all up, I get one of two problems. One is that the throttle doesn't work, the other is that right when I turn it on I already get full throttle. I can't seem to work out the combination for the throttle and since I have the same throttle and controller as my last build, I wish I could look but that one is sealed up also. Will have to work on it again tomorrow.

Edit: throttle issue worked out.. bike is up and ready to go, just have to finish the battery setup. I got my hands on a SATA plug so will have to wait for that to come in to build a balance port.

 

[dogman dan]

Well, that shoehorned in there much better than I thought possible. Looking at just the pic, I was thinking no way unless you went to a smaller controller.

Well done!

 

[iovaykind]

It's alive!

All I have left to do (which is an understatement) is to finish off the pack. Whether or not the batteries will fit well is still up in the air with all the wiring mess going on. And hopefully spray foam will keep everything in its place while providing some cushioning.

 

[iovaykind]

Some updated pics to get people to read this thread..:

Need help with soldering lipo tabs.. how do you guys do it? I can't seem to get the solder to adhere to the tabs.. Now I'm stuck with a 12S setup with no clue how to get the last four cells in series..

Edit:
With the remaining solder on the tabs, I was able to finish wiring all the batteries in series. Now to wait on the balance plug..

Another issue I foresee is the regen.. I'm seeing peak of 30A.. which is 6C charge rate o_0 that can't be good for the batteries. Will need to figure out how to lower the regen power or think about increasing the capacity to 10ah by fitting lipos under the frame. Lose stealth if I do that

 

[iovaykind]

My big mess of wires that makes my lipo look like a bomb.

Scratch that.. it IS a bomb.

Trying hard to get it to fit in:

Had problems so had to cut out the extra panel to fit everything.

Big mess, needed to relocate capacitors, and sliding in batteries was a huge feat.

But FINALLY it all fit:

Thanks to those who believed it could happen, and hi haters to those who didn't. Just kidding,

There's really like no space left.. I'm going have trouble fitting any sort of switch to turn it on. Will have to devise something, but will remain as stealth as possible! Going to get covers fitted so the bike looks normal again. Cheers!

 

[doc007]

WOW!!

That is an amazing build. So clean, so stealth. Good job man!

Can't wait to check her out. The GoPro is waiting.

Hope you get that balance plug soon!!

Congrats!

ps. make sure you dont short anything out on the metal frame. ALL that hard work and money would go down in a flame of glory. Maybe a coat of rubberized spray (plastic dip) might help.

 

[whereswally606]

iovay, thats impressive, i'm surprised and worried about how much weaker taking that second panel out has made the frame? my norco's do, have as much internal space as this so id have to resort to long packs , not sure im going to bother till i get one of a very similar style or make my own.

regards Andy

 

[iovaykind]

The frame is still pretty darn strong.. I wouldn't by any means jump this off anything significant, but off the curb no problem and can probably handle some small jumps. What's good about this aluminum is that even if a jump were to exceed its tensile strength, the frame would bend, but it would never snap. After removing the panels, I went ahead to test the material, and 6061 alloy is really good stuff.

I hope to close this bad boy up soon after I get the balance plug, install some charging wires, and a switch. Finding a spot for this stuff will be an issue now :wink:

 

[BATFINK]

Very nice build I have an older but almost identical frame. The frame i have also has What size is your frame?

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[iovaykind]

This one is a medium

 

[BATFINK]

Cheers, what voltage and amps are you running? Did you make those batteries yourself to fit that frame using cells or did you start with lipo. Bricks and modify them?

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