Motorcycle class Hub Motor

I haven't made a commitment to doing this design of air cooling. It was just a experiment to see the performance improvement it offered while I wait for the new motors. If I did do this style of air cooling I would epoxy the winding, halls paint the steel and the bearings are RS bearings so they should be OK. I would use a finer screen to keep out dirt and use eight holes on each side instead of four. I would include a series of holes in the rotor (low point) to let water drain. Hopefully I could design it to survive a rain storm but maybe not river crossings. The motor still gets plenty hot so moisture will evaporate.

Mark
 
markcycle said:
I haven't made a commitment to doing this design of air cooling. It was just a experiment to see the performance improvement it offered while I wait for the new motors. If I did do this style of air cooling I would epoxy the winding, halls paint the steel and the bearings are RS bearings so they should be OK. I would use a finer screen to keep out dirt and use eight holes on each side instead of four. I would include a series of holes in the rotor (low point) to let water drain. Hopefully I could design it to survive a rain storm but maybe not river crossings. The motor still gets plenty hot so moisture will evaporate.

Mark
Click to expand...
I think it makes sense not to try to make it river crossing proof. If you drove any other motorcycle (without an air intake snorkel) into a river, it would get the engine killed from flooded air/exhaust anyway.

In your design the exhaust would keep the rain out anyway due to positive air pressure. You can use the old plumber trick to keep water from wind and splash from getting in via gravity drain so if the bike is stationary in the rain, it won't flow back into the motor and if it gets splashed, it can still flow back out via gravity or centripetal force of the wheel when it rotates.

The intake of the air, that might be another story. Since air isn't affected by gravity as much as rain, some mushroom shaped intakes should prevent any rain from getting sucked in. Of course a back screen like you showed to prevent bugs or something big from getting jammed in there is still good. I think your motor would be a lot more forgiving to an accidental "dunk in the river" than an gas burner. Sure, you don't want moisture in there, but you could probably still drive it home at least. Maintenance later to clean out the dirt and mud.
 
The intake on most gas motors is pretty high compared to a wheel hub, I've taken plenty of vehicles into deep water, 2 and 4 wheeled, and the hubs always go under water long before the air intake. I don't see where there would be positive air pressure, air flow means air is pulled in and pushed out at the same rate.
 
JRP3 said:
The intake on most gas motors is pretty high compared to a wheel hub, I've taken plenty of vehicles into deep water, 2 and 4 wheeled, and the hubs always go under water long before the air intake. I don't see where there would be positive air pressure, air flow means air is pulled in and pushed out at the same rate.
Click to expand...
Good point. As for positive air pressure, only for the exhaust side, water will have air resistance to rushing in.

Do people really take their road bikes and plunge them through water that deep enough to bury the wheels? ATV's and Dirt Bikes, sure, but I think his target is road bikes and even then, it would probably work submersed under water, just wouldn't be good for it. I can attest that to my experience, my hub motor works under water as I have "stupidly" driven it through some creeks where the water almost came up to the controller (motor was over 6 inches under the surface of the water and yes it filled up quickly). I did that just for giggles and didn't want to push my luck by doing it more than once :mrgreen:

I was a funny site though, you can make a heck of a rooster trail of water at full power under water. Bad thing, the motor sprays water like crazy when riding and it weights a lot more until all the water comes out. Makes a terrible noise until the water clears up also, sounds like it's growling at you. :mrgreen:
Done with a brushless motor, not sure what would happen with a brushed motor since it needs physical contact with the brushes to run.
 
thanks mark...

even without the holes in the sidecovers, the hubmotor isnt waterprooved, because of the cables, that come out through the axle...

mark, the 4 threadholes in the sidecover are for the breakdisc, right? what are the other 4 bigger holes for?

i saw pics on google of hard driven(water/rain) xlyte-motor...after awhile it looks very bad inside...everything is rusty
 
RoughRider said:
thanks mark...

even without the holes in the sidecovers, the hubmotor isnt waterprooved, because of the cables, that come out through the axle...

mark, the 4 threadholes in the sidecover are for the breakdisc, right? what are the other 4 bigger holes for?

i saw pics on google of hard driven(water/rain) xlyte-motor...after awhile it looks very bad inside...everything is rusty
Click to expand...

Yes the holes are for a brake disc all the holes were tapped. I opened up four of them to let in more air.

If the winding and all the steel is properly painted or varnished and water can drain from the motor then it won't rust. It is most important that water doesn't sit inside the motor, there has to be holes at the lowest point so water can drain out.

What I showed is just an experiment I have 2 prototypes coming with much improved Efficiency and may not need air cooling for most applications. But almost all traction motors are open and need air cooling and this really isn't any different than a Angi or Mars motor in that respect.


Mark
 
yes, your are right...

i am looking forward to see your new prototype...

would you explain what you have done to the design to improve the Eff? Or is it a secret yet?
 
RoughRider said:
yes, your are right...

i am looking forward to see your new prototype...

would you explain what you have done to the design to improve the Eff? Or is it a secret yet?
Click to expand...
Or is it a secret yet? What

1) Heavier magnet wire results in lower winding resistance
2) Proper slant angle of the lamination
3) Better silicon steel

That's it

Mark
 
you could make little scuppers for any water that enters through the holes and runs radially out.

if you cut radial grooves across that joint face where the side plate bolts on, the water would be slung back out of the case through these little grooves, like scuppers on a boat, like an oil slinger in front of the main seal.
 
hey mark,

thanks for your description...

i am not an electrician, so maybe i dont understand it right...

1) Heavier magnet wire results in lower winding resistance

- i dont understand this. by heavier, you mean better purity of the copper wire? or higher density?
whats about useing thiner wires, the look not very thin in the pictures. so you will get a better density of copper in the groove of the sheet metal??
higher density means more copper, more copper means less heat, right?

2) Proper slant angle of the lamination

- understand...yes tha angle was wrong

3) Better silicon steel

- by better, you mean thiner? or just more % of silicon in the steel or both?? how thin are the sheets?
 
RoughRider said:
hey mark,

thanks for your description...

i am not an electrician, so maybe i dont understand it right...

1) Heavier magnet wire results in lower winding resistance

- i dont understand this. by heavier, you mean better purity of the copper wire? or higher density?
whats about useing thiner wires
Click to expand...

By heavier he means THICKER, ie a heavier gauge. The thinner the wire, the more resistance it has, the more heat it generates.

By better silicon steel, I'd expect he means a better grade of silicon steel.

-JD
 
jorhyne1 said:
Mark what specific Kelly controller do you recommend for your motor?
Click to expand...

I'm testing with a KBL12221H which is now replaced with a KBL12251H these models will work up to 136 volts and 220 amps

If you use this controller and match it to a 96 nominal 110 hot off the charger LIFEPO4 batteries as I have you will have a high performance bike.

I am hoping the new 602 motor I'm getting will give similar performance at some where between 72 to 84 volts which will save money on the controller but the 603 will need the 96 volts. This is all based on going at least 65 MPH

Did 40 miles today with some opportunity charging during the day.

Mark
 
Hi Mark,
Any General update from the Master hub motor man? (YOU)
Time frame till they are available?
Cost?
Sizes, Styles, dimensions, rim availability etc.
I hopefully will be in the marked by the fall??
Currently I'm still welding up my leaning Delta trike frame.
Regards
John Head
Western NY.
 
Hi Mark,
Just another recommendation. For a NON invasive cooling reduction design you may want to cast in fins off of the center hub? (Radiating out toward the rim) Similar looking to cylinder fins on an internal combustion motor? They do assist in cooling with no fans etc required.
Just some more $.02
Keep up the great work.
Regards
John
 
All Hail Mark,

I must congratulate you. You have created incredible buzz. I, like many others, have you joined the forum simply to communicate with you and have already gone to your website to be notified of when your wheel will be ready. I have also noticed that it is already approaching June and still no wheel.

Maybe you would consider a “presell” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preselling?jss=1) ?. This would be a fantastic way to raise immediate cash and gauge consumer demand. This money could also be used to expedite production and further initiate the prototyping of future hub designs. Another reason is also the nature of your consumer base. With the riding season already here and with many consumer already ramping up their ev projects in expectation of you new hub motor wheel, many would consider pre-paying to make sure they are first in the waiting list and guarantee the availability of your so very desirable product. Much like all the people who prepaid for the latest version of the video game “Halo” for the X-BOX.

If there are any design concerns with your first MHM602 series wheel this could be easily addressed by selling an “upgrade” as a “kit” (mo money, mo money, mo money) if any problems arise. It may make more sense to sell 100 wheels and have feedback from 100 people on its performance then to sell no wheels and have only 1 feedback (yourself). If someone has any issues then you could design an upgrade kit of the wheel to over come and design issues later. This will increase development in terms of both financing and research. I understand that you want to sell a quality product that is reliable, but I think you will have consumers that would be interested in buying a 85-95% product and then work out the bugs as they arise (I am trying hard NOT to compare your hub motor to Microsoft Windows). Plus you may have a lot of people developing solutions that you can apply to your future designs.

I also think being first to market is rather important. Getting established NOW is important. I think many people, such as myself, believe ev technology is exploding. The people getting involved now, such as yourself, could easily be industry giants sometime in the future (I am trying hard NOT to compare you to Bill Gates). No one wants to see your project languish in R&D limbo then watch someone pull the rug out from under you.

The truth is, I am impatient. I concocted all of this to convince you to start selling your product ASAP by suggesting a more aggressive business model (or by appealing to base desires for fame and fortune). I am still undecided about an ev project myself. I am still waiting to see when you will be selling your wheel. It is easy to shop around and price compare chassis and batteries, but a nice hub motor setup? not so easy. I conceived the idea of a hub motor for a motorcycle sometime ago. I searched the internet hoping someone had already came up with such a fantastic idea and was selling it to the general public and BLAMO… I found you.

Good luck either way,
Your Prince
 
ElsewherePrince said:
All Hail Mark,

I must congratulate you. You have created incredible buzz. I, like many others, have you joined the forum simply to communicate with you and have already gone to your website to be notified of when your wheel will be ready. I have also noticed that it is already approaching June and still no wheel.

Maybe you would consider a “presell” (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/preselling?jss=1) ?. This would be a fantastic way to raise immediate cash and gauge consumer demand. This money could also be used to expedite production and further initiate the prototyping of future hub designs. Another reason is also the nature of your consumer base. With the riding season already here and with many consumer already ramping up their ev projects in expectation of you new hub motor wheel, many would consider pre-paying to make sure they are first in the waiting list and guarantee the availability of your so very desirable product. Much like all the people who prepaid for the latest version of the video game “Halo” for the X-BOX.

If there are any design concerns with your first MHM602 series wheel this could be easily addressed, Sell an “upgrade” as a “kit” (mo money, mo money, mo money) if any problems arise. It may make more sense to sell 100 wheels and have feedback from 100 people on its performance then to sell no wheels and have only 1 feedback (yourself). If someone has any issues then you could design an upgrade kit of the wheel to over come and design issues later. This will increase development in terms of both financing and research. I understand that you want to sell a quality product that is reliable, but I think you will have consumers that would be interested in buying a 85-95% product and then work out the bugs as they arise (I am trying hard NOT to compare your hub motor to Microsoft Windows). Plus you may have a lot of people developing solutions that you can apply to your future designs.

I also think being first to market is rather important. Getting established NOW is important. I think many people, such as myself, believe ev technology is exploding. The people getting involved now, such as yourself, could easily be industry giants sometime in the future (I am trying hard NOT to compare you to Bill Gates). No one wants to see your project languish in R&D limbo then watch someone pull the rug out from under you.

The truth is, I am impatient. I concocted all of this to convince you to start selling your product ASAP by suggesting a more aggressive business model (or by appealing to base desires for fame and fortune). I am still undecided about an ev project myself. I am still waiting to see when you will be selling your wheel. It is easy to shop around and price compare chassis and batteries, but nice hub motor setup? not so easy. I conceived the idea of a hub motor for a motorcycle sometime ago. I searched the internet hoping someone had already came up with such a fantastic idea and was selling it to the general public and BLAMO… I found you.

Good luck either way,
Your Prince
Click to expand...

Wow thanks

I'm am going to presell or a better term is take a deposit on the product. As soon as I test the new wheels, which I should have next week. Here is the deal I have to wait and see that the product that Xlite manufactures for me "EnerTrac Corp." meets DOT standards, its not just does it work or not, it must conform to the standard for a motorcycle wheel and this is what the next prototypes will reflect, plus all the performance improvements mentioned earlier.

OK with that said:
next week I get the prototypes
the following week I take deposits. I wait one week for all the dposits to come in.
I order the product, all customers who give a deposit will have there product shipped by air from China at no extra cost (from NY to your location standard shipping charges).
I would expect to deliver in about 30 to 45 days from recite of deposit.

I would encourage anyone who is going to use this wheel to work out all the design details. It may take longer than 45 days to get batteries from China. What I did when I was waiting for the first prototype was I did all the conversion work and had the motorcycle completely ready waiting for the wheel, dropped in the wheel and began riding.

If you have any doubts about the motor come and take a test ride on my motorcycle. Drop me an email and lets set up a time, just please have your motorcycle License.

By the time you get the donor bike get the batteries mounted, controller mounted, do the 12 volt electrical system and all the other rework needed the wheel will appear and you'll be off.

Mark
 
I can't keep quiet any longer... This is FREAKIN' wicked!

I've been sketching some concept art and schematic for a hopeful hybrid turbine electric for the past year or so. After recommendations to keep the first system small (R/C car) I decided I would really want something drivable instead. So my sketches have included bike/motorcycle designs.

Until now I've been making my CAD files use a motor and transmission on the frame due to the low power hub products on the market. Not a lot of room for fuel, turbine, dynamo, batteries, controller, motor, etc. So last night I decided to do another round of google image searches, despite months of failure, to find larger hub motors... And what do I find!!!

Markcycle's Motorcycle class Hub Motor the MHM602. Amazing!

I was kept up all night reading this post and revising sketches and of course dreaming with a big EV grin.

So markcycle, a big thank-you for launching this endeavor. I think it will fill a gap, as well as expand the EV phenomenon for those of us who like a little more speed. Please take the time needed in testing and quality control of your awesome looking hub motor... Even though I can hardly wait :p

That said, I know its no Killacycle motor. So for those contemplating trikes I think you guys are much better off with a non-hub motor. Think more bicycle for this drive. I know I'll be trying to keep weight to bare minimums on my end to try and squeeze every bit of speed out of this thing when its done and tested. For those thinking about cooling I have attached below two doodles. And also an image of a twin version (10 in. wide tire) for giggles.

Again Markcycle, thank-you. I hope it works out and wish you much luck with this project. Sweet bike btw.

Jasper Mine
Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania

http://home.earthlink.net/~jaspermine/stuff/bike/air_cool.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jaspermine/stuff/bike/water_cool.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~jaspermine/stuff/bike/siamese_hub.jpg
 
RoughRider said:
you talked about the "KV" of the motor...

what is the "KV"?? What does it stand for?
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor

Kv rating

The Kv rating of a design of brushless motor is the constant relating the motors unloaded RPM to the (peak, not RMS) voltage on the wires connected to the coils (the "back-EMF"). For example, a 5700 Kv motor, supplied with 11.1 volts, will run at a nominal 63270 rpm. By Lenz's law, a running motor will create a back-EMF proportional to the RPM. Most ESCs do not boost the battery voltage. Once a motor is spinning so fast that the back-EMF is at or above the battery voltage, it is impossible for those ESCs to "speed up" that motor, even with no load. Kv is the voltage constant (capital-K, subscript v), not to be confused with the kilovolt, whose symbol is kV (lower-case k, capital V). [1] [2]
 
mark, you said, that you had a temperature of 140°C...is there a temperaturesensor inside the windings or did you instal one on your self?


generaly, what do you and all the others think of putting the voltage up and lowing the amps? wouldnt that mean less heat inside the motor?

what is the voltage of your battpack now?
 
The new motor Looks Great Mark,
Is it a 17, or 18" rim?
The spoke pattern looks much better as well!
I've just sold one of my motorcycles so I may actually have the cash on hand to purchase one.
Let us know the price, and/or deposit on the first shippment?
Thanks again for your hard work.
Regards
John Head
Rochester, NY :mrgreen:
 
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