Motorcycle class Hub Motor

[ewert]

Hello Mark,

I have to say, this looks like what I have been looking for a few months now. Simple, elegant and takes a few steps out of motorcycle electric conversion making it a lot more simple. AND it seems to be both highway-speed capable and with enough of amps it also accelerates well enough, from what I gather from your experiences?

I'd like to annoy I mean ask you for reiteration and reconfirmation a couple of items, I'll outline my requirements in the bike:

Highwayspeed + overtaking capability : max legal speed here in Finland is 120km/h or approx 75mph, and I figure 140km/h or 87mph as absolute top speed I would like. That would entail good acceleration up to the 75mph speed, the rest to 87mph doesn't need good acceleration anymore.

Traffic and acceleration : I do want the bike to impress those who scoff at the electric part. Not leave the high end crowd in the dust of course, but have good acceleration. Is it possible to do 0-60 in 5 secs, and what sort of amps and thus controller/batteries would that entail? I foresee a heavyish battery pack (living in Finland I will go for minimum 80 miles range, size and weight permitting the battery pack maybe even as high as 180 miles is something I hope might be possible), so it won't be at the low end weight spectrum. I did read the last 15 pages or so last night, I seem to remember some accel real world data mentioned, but forgot the spesifics and not sure if it was with the latest motor? Maybe the bike weight / amps / accel data from Jay's race bike version?

Efficiency : I reckon the toughest part of my wishspecs to fulfill will be the range, and when the range is needed much of it may be at 62mph. I will most likely try to fix Cd a bit with some custom fairings, unless the original bike fairings already are good (which will be an item of interest when I look for the converted-to-be bike) for that as well of course. I think there was a rpm/curve/efficiency graph somewhere in the thread? Think the motor will stay at the high efficiency area if it is fitted with high enough volts and the right size of tire for the 75mph okay acceleration max speed and 87mph absolute top speed?

Much thanks for any answers, not sure if they are easy to answer or not. Although money is not that much of a problem, I won't splurge either for minimal gains, so especially on the acceleration part I'll be willing to compromise to say 0-60 in 7-8secs, also 80mph top speed would be acceptable as well. I'd rather have the more impressive accel though for the non-electric crowd to go Ooh-aah over of course, and as I will already need quite a lot of kWh from the battery pack I reckon the necessary amps if the motor can handle it will come easily enough.

 

[Jay64]

The bike we tested at Mid-Ohio race track that hit 80mph was Mark's build. We are still working on making my build, so we don't have any data from that yet.

 

[markcycle]

Hello Mark,

I have to say, this looks like what I have been looking for a few months now. Simple, elegant and takes a few steps out of motorcycle electric conversion making it a lot more simple. AND it seems to be both highway-speed capable and with enough of amps it also accelerates well enough, from what I gather from your experiences?

I'd like to annoy I mean ask you for reiteration and reconfirmation a couple of items, I'll outline my requirements in the bike:

Highwayspeed + overtaking capability : max legal speed here in Finland is 120km/h or approx 75mph, and I figure 140km/h or 87mph as absolute top speed I would like. That would entail good acceleration up to the 75mph speed, the rest to 87mph doesn't need good acceleration anymore.

Traffic and acceleration : I do want the bike to impress those who scoff at the electric part. Not leave the high end crowd in the dust of course, but have good acceleration. Is it possible to do 0-60 in 5 secs, and what sort of amps and thus controller/batteries would that entail? I foresee a heavyish battery pack (living in Finland I will go for minimum 80 miles range, size and weight permitting the battery pack maybe even as high as 180 miles is something I hope might be possible), so it won't be at the low end weight spectrum. I did read the last 15 pages or so last night, I seem to remember some accel real world data mentioned, but forgot the spesifics and not sure if it was with the latest motor? Maybe the bike weight / amps / accel data from Jay's race bike version?

Efficiency : I reckon the toughest part of my wishspecs to fulfill will be the range, and when the range is needed much of it may be at 62mph. I will most likely try to fix Cd a bit with some custom fairings, unless the original bike fairings already are good (which will be an item of interest when I look for the converted-to-be bike) for that as well of course. I think there was a rpm/curve/efficiency graph somewhere in the thread? Think the motor will stay at the high efficiency area if it is fitted with high enough volts and the right size of tire for the 75mph okay acceleration max speed and 87mph absolute top speed?

Much thanks for any answers, not sure if they are easy to answer or not. Although money is not that much of a problem, I won't splurge either for minimal gains, so especially on the acceleration part I'll be willing to compromise to say 0-60 in 7-8secs, also 80mph top speed would be acceptable as well. I'd rather have the more impressive accel though for the non-electric crowd to go Ooh-aah over of course, and as I will already need quite a lot of kWh from the battery pack I reckon the necessary amps if the motor can handle it will come easily enough.

Lots of questions all good ones so lets get started

First you need to tells us about the bike you want to build what is the projected weight?

Assuming you can keep the bike under 400 pounds here are some answers

first efficiency (real world); I run on the parkway at 60-65 MPH (105Kph) at just under 100 Watt-Hr/mile From this you can derive at the battery you will need for the range you want. My bike is not aerodynamic at all so I think a good fairing and 85 Watt-hr/mile is possible.

Top speed 85 is no problem go with a 36 cell LIFEPO4 pack
Range: see above @ 100 watt-hr/mile and I have a 4KW pack so in theory I can go 40 miles. 30 is probably a practical number for my pack at highway speeds. Its just a matter of how many batteries you can afford. You would need a 80 AH pack, that's really big and would present a packaging challenge, but possible.

Acceleration: 30KW peak is possible 7- 8 seconds is practical to 60 MPH 5 seconds would need a monster controller and proper thermal monitoring of the motor.

At Mid-Ohio race track the NON electric crowd as you put it, were amazed at the power of the bike I got no negative feedback from people who are true motorcycle gear heads.

And of course you are invited to come and ride my test bike any time trying is believing.

Mark

 

[Jay64]

He lives in Finland, not sure if he is going to be able to make the trip to test rider the Lifan.

If he needs 80ah, maybe go with something like the 100ah kokams.

 

[ewert]

Lots of questions all good ones so lets get started
First you need to tells us about the bike you want to build what is the projected weight?
Assuming you can keep the bike under 400 pounds here are some answers

Haven't picked one yet, since the electric choices sort of matter also, naturally will try to keep the weight as low as possible. As the season here is getting worse (no snows yet but ... ), I'm thinking I might look for a used small cc crotchrocker, ride it till the end of season, and then I'll have a whole winter to tinker with it. Half a year or so ...

(I've messed around a bit with the order of your reply)

first efficiency (real world); I run on the parkway at 60-65 MPH (105Kph) at just under 100 Watt-Hr/mile From this you can derive at the battery you will need for the range you want. My bike is not aerodynamic at all so I think a good fairing and 85 Watt-hr/mile is possible.
Range: see above @ 100 watt-hr/mile and I have a 4KW pack so in theory I can go 40 miles. 30 is probably a practical number for my pack at highway speeds. Its just a matter of how many batteries you can afford. You would need a 80 AH pack, that's really big and would present a packaging challenge, but possible.

Very promising. I think you had 100V pack? Do you think going to 120 or 144 would keep the motor in a bit better sweetspot efficiency-wise for 62mph? Small percentages are pretty important at the high end speeds, since it is about exactly 62 miles from where I live to the nearest big city. And lot of the road is 100km/h limited, though as I am old enough to have passed the "faster faster" phase, and not yet old enough to have come to the "faster faster FASTER I'M NOT OLD" phase, I might have to scale back the travel speed to 80km/h if the battery pack range just is too tricky to do...

Top speed 85 is no problem go with a 36 cell LIFEPO4 pack
Acceleration: 30KW peak is possible 7- 8 seconds is practical to 60 MPH 5 seconds would need a monster controller and proper thermal monitoring of the motor.

Okay so top speed will be no problem, yay. And if I go for 144 (why not ... ), will be higher even, so most likely good accel even in the 60-70mph range for overtaking in highway speeds (I prefer to zip by trucks than trudge alongside 'em for too long). Unless I calculated way off, 30kW would give theoretical frictionless max accel of about 3,6secs for 0-60 with 280kg of weight (bike + driver). Needless to say friction and losses of course cut some off, and drag etc. but 0-40 will be just plain mean in any normal car environment. Kelly 144V/250A for 1k$ or 120V/270A for 800$ at Kelly shop, those should be able to peak out the motor right? And if for example TS LiFePO4 is rated for up to 3C continuous and up to 20C burst, then in a 144V setup should have no troubles pulling enough amps from the pack with my mileage requirement? Only have to have a big enough bike to carry all that batterymass, I guess 100kg approx... might have to remove passenger from the registration, oh well will have to check up on the regulations.

So am I horribly missing something? Would there be much help to acceleration from setting up the batteries in 21+21 (for 140ish V), and do that seriel/parallel thingy-o-magic for higher amps at low speed for higher torque? What sort of thermal monitoring if any do you have in the motor currently? Do you foresee heating troubles in non-racing, if I would pump the full 30kW peak for a show-off accel, I don't foresee doing that many times in row anyways?

Mostly the thing for me is that because of the mileage requirement, I might as well drop the few hundred extra on controller etc. to have (insane? ) show-offiness too. I'll anyways have the volts & amps possible from the batteries ...

And of course you are invited to come and ride my test bike any time trying is believing.
Mark

As Jay said, that might pose a bit of a problem due to distance.

 

[ewert]

I just figured after calculating the lifecycle and required mileage per charge, that there is also one more question:

You reckon the motor will last 400 000+ miles? =P

Mwahahahaha ... ouch. =P

 

[guity]

Mark, your motorcycle seems fantastic, and I am looking forward to seeing what Jay64 does with the enhanced version.

I went through all the pages of the thread, and I think there was some initial mention of using the hub motors in both wheels, but I didn't see if anyone reached any actual conclusion about whether the two-wheel drive would be effective. I am not an engineer, electrical or otherwise, but intuitively it seems like a motor in the back geared to emphasize torque and acceleration, and another motor in the front, geared to emphasize top speed, perhaps even running from independent (though controlled by one throttle) sets of batteries could really produce a fast bike that makes no compromise between top speed and acceleration. Do you have any plans for building a two-wheel drive bike?

 

[markcycle]

Mark, your motorcycle seems fantastic, and I am looking forward to seeing what Jay64 does with the enhanced version.

I went through all the pages of the thread, and I think there was some initial mention of using the hub motors in both wheels, but I didn't see if anyone reached any actual conclusion about whether the two-wheel drive would be effective. I am not an engineer, electrical or otherwise, but intuitively it seems like a motor in the back geared to emphasize torque and acceleration, and another motor in the front, geared to emphasize top speed, perhaps even running from independent (though controlled by one throttle) sets of batteries could really produce a fast bike that makes no compromise between top speed and acceleration. Do you have any plans for building a two-wheel drive bike?

There is a two wheel drive trike in progress right now that's going to be stupid fast. It's not right for me to divulge his name. He's paid me for two wheels so this is a very real project.
He's sending me a swing arm so I can fit the wheel for him. I saw pictures of the build today and the guy's got skills - more to come.

It is so great to work with talented early adopters of new products.

Mark

 

[jackelmatador1]

I am new around here and just wanted to give Mark some props on this project. You see so many custom builds around, the fact that you are making a "simple" kit motorcycle possible is AWESOME!

I would love to one day be able to do a project with this motor. I imagine as the price of LiFePo4 comes done this may one day become a reality.

 

[__Tango]

Wow, wow, wow.

I just spent more than 4 hours reading this entire thread (ok, i started last night and had to go to sleep after about 3 hours). In any case, this is awesome. I'm very excited to see this hub motor. I'm planning on doing my first conversion with it.

I have a couple of questions however (actually, i have a TON of questions...but anyway). In no particular order:

• Mark, you've talked about the differences between the MH602 and MH603 motors, in particular that the acceleration in the 603 is better, and the top-end is better in the 602 (with appropriate caveats of course). However, how much of a difference is it? Do you have 0-30mph numbers for each? I'm particularly interested in the takeoff speed from a stop. For example, at a stop light, will i be able to get out in front of the majority of traffic when the light turns green with the 602 motor (on a similar bike setup to yours...e.g. 96V, 40 or 60AH) with a 200lb rider. I realize this is a pretty "fuzzy" request, so let me explain a little more...the gas-guzzler car i drive is a 4cyl subaru outback wagon with manual transmission. If i need to scoot out from the line to change lanes, i can comfortably do so in 80-90% of the cases if i push the car kinda hard. this is basically what i'm looking to be able to do.
• Can you explain what type of battery box setup you used for your bike? I saw a couple of pictures of what looked like the beginnings of a battery box using what looked like sheet aluminum. What did you do?
• The controller you're using (or the equivalent at this point): The Kelly KBL12251H...I have been reading a thread on elmoto.net (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=1088) about someone who is going to use your MH602 motor on a Ninja 250. The controller he chose was the Kelly KBL12271I (24-120V, 270A with a 6Kwh batteries). This controller is the "step up" from the one you're using. Frodus (the same frodus on this board), mentioned that he thought that that controller may not be able to pull enough current continuously. Have you found any issues such as this with the controller on your bike?

So, in the end, I'm trying to put together a bike that is freeway worthy (which realistically means 70mph top end), has a range in the 50-60 mile range (probably not all of it at freeway speed), and can accelerate based on the criteria i talked about above. I haven't chosen a donor bike yet, but i may have access to a Ninja 250 or a Nighthawk 250. Both are light (yay), but are small so may not have enough room for the battery pack i think i'll need. I'm thinking 32-36 thundersky 60AH batteries and the MH602 motor. Do you think this is feasible?

Thanks a bunch! I'm very much looking forward to getting started on this project.

...tango...

 

[markcycle]

Wow, wow, wow.

I just spent more than 4 hours reading this entire thread (ok, i started last night and had to go to sleep after about 3 hours). In any case, this is awesome. I'm very excited to see this hub motor. I'm planning on doing my first conversion with it.

I have a couple of questions however (actually, i have a TON of questions...but anyway). In no particular order:

• Mark, you've talked about the differences between the MH602 and MH603 motors, in particular that the acceleration in the 603 is better, and the top-end is better in the 602 (with appropriate caveats of course). However, how much of a difference is it? Do you have 0-30mph numbers for each? I'm particularly interested in the takeoff speed from a stop. For example, at a stop light, will i be able to get out in front of the majority of traffic when the light turns green with the 602 motor (on a similar bike setup to yours...e.g. 96V, 40 or 60AH) with a 200lb rider. I realize this is a pretty "fuzzy" request, so let me explain a little more...the gas-guzzler car i drive is a 4cyl subaru outback wagon with manual transmission. If i need to scoot out from the line to change lanes, i can comfortably do so in 80-90% of the cases if i push the car kinda hard. this is basically what i'm looking to be able to do.
• Can you explain what type of battery box setup you used for your bike? I saw a couple of pictures of what looked like the beginnings of a battery box using what looked like sheet aluminum. What did you do?
• The controller you're using (or the equivalent at this point): The Kelly KBL12251H...I have been reading a thread on elmoto.net (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=1088) about someone who is going to use your MH602 motor on a Ninja 250. The controller he chose was the Kelly KBL12271I (24-120V, 270A with a 6Kwh batteries). This controller is the "step up" from the one you're using. Frodus (the same frodus on this board), mentioned that he thought that that controller may not be able to pull enough current continuously. Have you found any issues such as this with the controller on your bike?

So, in the end, I'm trying to put together a bike that is freeway worthy (which realistically means 70mph top end), has a range in the 50-60 mile range (probably not all of it at freeway speed), and can accelerate based on the criteria i talked about above. I haven't chosen a donor bike yet, but i may have access to a Ninja 250 or a Nighthawk 250. Both are light (yay), but are small so may not have enough room for the battery pack i think i'll need. I'm thinking 32-36 thundersky 60AH batteries and the MH602 motor. Do you think this is feasible?

Thanks a bunch! I'm very much looking forward to getting started on this project.

...tango...

• Mark, you've talked about the differences between the MH602 and MH603 motors, in particular that the acceleration in the 603 is better, and the top-end is better in the 602 (with appropriate caveats of course). However, how much of a difference is it? Do you have 0-30mph numbers for each? I'm particularly interested in the takeoff speed from a stop. For example, at a stop light, will i be able to get out in front of the majority of traffic when the light turns green with the 602 motor (on a similar bike setup to yours...e.g. 96V, 40 or 60AH) with a 200lb rider. I realize this is a pretty "fuzzy" request, so let me explain a little more...the gas-guzzler car i drive is a 4cyl subaru outback wagon with manual transmission. If i need to scoot out from the line to change lanes, i can comfortably do so in 80-90% of the cases if i push the car kinda hard. this is basically what i'm looking to be able to do.

With the right controller as you put it you’ll scoot from the line to change lanes is 95% of the time. Again don’t skimp on the controller and batteries and 0 to 30 in 3 to 4 seconds is possible with the 602 motor. If there is one thing I insisted on in the design, is that the motor play well in traffic

• Can you explain what type of battery box setup you used for your bike? I saw a couple of pictures of what looked like the beginnings of a battery box using what looked like sheet aluminum. What did you do?
Bent up .0625 and .125 aluminum into a box. I have no bending brake, just clamped the sheet stock between two bars of aluminum and hammered away. I have a video of me bending a section of the box, I’ll post it if it will help.

• The controller you're using (or the equivalent at this point): The Kelly KBL12251H...I have been reading a thread on elmoto.net (http://www.elmoto.net/showthread.php?t=1088) about someone who is going to use your MH602 motor on a Ninja 250. The controller he chose was the Kelly KBL12271I (24-120V, 270A with a 6Kwh batteries). This controller is the "step up" from the one you're using. Frodus (the same frodus on this board), mentioned that he thought that that controller may not be able to pull enough current continuously. Have you found any issues such as this with the controller on your bike?

Kelly controllers are overrated, but with this in mind one can spec out a correct unit. That being said they have proven to me to be very reliable in my brushless applications. When in the course of R&D I did blow one up they sold me a new one at half price. Here is what you need for a performance machine 250 amps peak, 125 amps continuous and 32 cells of LIFEPO4. With this you’ll be zipping around with no problem at all but most important it’ll be a bike that’s really fun to ride. To get these current numbers, you may want to consider a 400 amp 120 volt controller. KBL12401I,24-120V,400A,Opto-Isolated BLDC Controller w/ Regen but the KBL12271I,24-120V,270A,Opto-Isolated BLDC Controller w/ Regen will work fine also and will do highway speeds. It takes no more than 60/70 amps at 120 volts for highway speeds.

So, in the end, I'm trying to put together a bike that is freeway worthy (which realistically means 70mph top end), has a range in the 50-60 mile range (probably not all of it at freeway speed), and can accelerate based on the criteria i talked about above. I haven't chosen a donor bike yet, but i may have access to a Ninja 250 or a Nighthawk 250. Both are light (yay), but are small so may not have enough room for the battery pack i think i'll need. I'm thinking 32-36 thundersky 60AH batteries and the MH602 motor. Do you think this is feasible?

Stuffing that much battery in such a small frame will be a challenge. ThunderSky may not be your best choice.

Mark

 

[pgt400]

This guy stuffed 24, 90ah TS cells in his Ninja ex250...AND he has a bulbus series motor! So yeah, I'll bet you can get 32 TS 60AH cells in there!

http://www.evalbum.com/1407

 

[__Tango]

With the right controller as you put it you’ll scoot from the line to change lanes is 95% of the time. Again don’t skimp on the controller and batteries and 0 to 30 in 3 to 4 seconds is possible with the 602 motor. If there is one thing I insisted on in the design, is that the motor play well in traffic

Great. This is what i was looking for.

Bent up .0625 and .125 aluminum into a box. I have no bending brake, just clamped the sheet stock between two bars of aluminum and hammered away. I have a video of me bending a section of the box, I’ll post it if it will help.

Yes, please do. I'm very interested.

Kelly controllers are overrated, but with this in mind one can spec out a correct unit. That being said they have proven to me to be very reliable in my brushless applications. When in the course of R&D I did blow one up they sold me a new one at half price. Here is what you need for a performance machine 250 amps peak, 125 amps continuous and 32 cells of LIFEPO4. With this you’ll be zipping around with no problem at all but most important it’ll be a bike that’s really fun to ride. To get these current numbers, you may want to consider a 400 amp 120 volt controller. KBL12401I,24-120V,400A,Opto-Isolated BLDC Controller w/ Regen but the KBL12271I,24-120V,270A,Opto-Isolated BLDC Controller w/ Regen will work fine also and will do highway speeds. It takes no more than 60/70 amps at 120 volts for highway speeds.

Great. One question, and this is a general one i guess...if the controller can do at least or more than what's needed by the motor/battery combo (you mention 250A peak, 125A continuous, 32 cells LiFePO4), is there any reason to get a larger controller?

Stuffing that much battery in such a small frame will be a challenge. ThunderSky may not be your best choice.

Yeah, i think it's a bit of a long shot, though based on pgt400's comments, i am cautiously optimistic.

What types of batteries would you suggest?

Thanks a bunch.

...tango...

 

[pgt400]

Tango, did you check out this link http://www.evalbum.com/1407 With the Hub motor you'll have a bunch more room, plus the 60's are smaller then the 90's.

 

[markcycle]

Thought a look at our test bench might prove interesting. The swingarm on the table is from a NInja 250.

[youtube]rpIbrGsufIw[/youtube]

Mark

 

[pgt400]

Mark, Are you in Levittown Pa?

The Ninja swingarm, what cells and V/AH are being used? Do you know when it will be complete?

 

[markcycle]

Mark, Are you in Levittown Pa?

The Ninja swingarm, what cells and V/AH are being used? Do you know when it will be complete?

Nope Levittown New York

Shop is in Hicksville New York

I not sure what you mean by what cells and V/AH being used
If you look at the wheel on the test bench it is mounted in a swingarm, that swingarm is from a Ninja 250. The swingaram stays with the test bench and I mount wheels in it for testing, every wheel gets tested.

I'm not currently building a complete Ninja250 bike.

Mark

 

[markcycle]

a look into EnerTrac's latest work

Mark

 

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

I'm LOVING IT!
Thanks Mark

 

[Jay64]

What measurements do you need to have the hub fitted for a specific bike. I'm working on building my 144v 40ah pack and am wanting to put this hubmotor in the Katakna chassis.

 

[markcycle]

What measurements do you need to have the hub fitted for a specific bike. I'm working on building my 144v 40ah pack and am wanting to put this hubmotor in the Katakna chassis.

Basically, you need to tell us the spacers needed to center the wheel. You can give use that after you get the wheel and place it in the swing arm, then figure out the spacing. Axle diameter (very important), and send us your rotor so we can make a interface plate and mount it.

I'll need a good picture and some dimensions of the swing arm for mounting the torque arm bracket.

Mark

 

[Jay64]

ok, I will work on getting those measurements and pictures. The good new is that the Katana originally came with a torque arm for the brake caliper.

 

[todayican2]

Anyone have any idea how one would go about attaching a "solid" rim to the hub? Im just not sure how this would do with a trike application as far as the side loads.

 

[markcycle]

Anyone have any idea how one would go about attaching a "solid" rim to the hub? Im just not sure how this would do with a trike application as far as the side loads.

For a full size motorcycle trike I am working on a center mounted twin hub motor design. You would retain the standard wheels of the trike and use the hub motors as a differential mounted inboard as a car's differential is mounted, with shafts to the wheels.

Drawings aren't ready yet for show should have something to sell in about 3 to 6 weeks.
This work is being done for car conversions using the 600 series motor where the motor picks up the CV shafts or front axles in a FWD car. Pull out everything under the hood, center mount two motors, connect to the axles and your off. The goal allow cars that have automatic tranny's to be converted to electric. Since I pull everything out including the tranny in my design, hence 90% of the car that couldn't be converted now can. I also needed to address the unspurng weight issue for car conversions, this design does that.

Stay tuned more to come here and on other forum such as
http://www.elmoto.net
Mark

 

[markcycle]

2009 Ninja 250 fitted with a 602 wheel