MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

[madin88]

comparing different motors makes not much sense i think, but i would say the crytalyte has more copper

 

[Allex]

That is my point. Both motors have similar perfomance but one seems to have more copper but the stator width is less. Can more copper on crystalyte somehow live up to Cromotor ratings?

 

[fechter]

They look like maybe a different winding configuration. The Cromotor looks like it's one coil per pole (a little hard to see in the picture). In theory, all the copper you see outside the slots does not contribute to the torque, so represents wasted power. Less copper in the end turns is better for efficiency. Ideally you'd want only copper in the slots, but there would be no way to complete the circuit that way. Concentrated pole windings try to minimize the amount of copper between windings and this seems to be a very common approach these days. Using a wider stator puts a higher percentage of the copper in the slot.

 

[madin88]

the crystalyte also has different pole count as i can see much wider magnets.

 

[zombiess]

The Crystalyte motor has a thinner stator (i'm not sure of the copper fill or slot dimensions). The first Cromotor and all the ones that I've had up until now (with the exception of my custom high speed 2 turn) are 4 turns per tooth with 18 strands. That's 4*18=52 strands of copper per slot. I don't remember what gauge the enamled wire is, I need to dig up some pics where I measured it with a caliper. I believe the copper fill of the Cromotor is higher than those old 530x motors, but I don't remember for sure.

Lots of copper coming out the ends of the motor and not in line with the tooth produces something called "end turn losses". This is wasted magnetic flux field that is not doing any work.

The most important factor of a motor is probably it's efficiency rating. The one in the picture posted that is being held was 87% efficient which is way over the older Crystalyte 530x motors that I think were 80ish% at best (been a long time, don't remember the details any more, someone will probably post up the info). The latest version of the Cromotor is right at 90% and in the future this is going to improve more. The more efficient a motor is, the better it will take abuse because it converts that energy into work instead of heat. There are many factors that effect motor efficiency, magnet strength, air gap, copper fill, stator steel type, stator lamination thickness, back iron, pole count, desired operating RPM, eddy current losses, I think everyone gets the picture without me nerding out further (I'm starting to dig into magnetics lately).

To summarize, you can have two motors which look almost identical, but behave completely differently. It can be difficult to compare 2 different motors. A long time ago I did a write up trying to compare the efficiency of my 9C 2806 motor to the Cromotor. The Cromotor ended up being more efficient from what I could tell even though I ran it slightly harder over the same course (hard to get things exact without a dyno). Comparison is more anecdotal than accurate but not totally invalid. At the time I did that there was a concern that the big heavy motor would be inefficient compared to the normal 9C motors most people were running, including myself.

That is my point. Both motors have similar perfomance but one seems to have more copper but the stator width is less. Can more copper on crystalyte somehow live up to Cromotor ratings?

A wider stator produces more electro motive force (EMF). It's kinda like ICE engines. You can do all kinds of work to a 2.0L engine to make it produce lots of power, but if you then do those same mods to a 6.0L engine you end up way higher than the 2.0L could ever get. Physics stops you.

 

[teslanv]

Any guesses what the efficiency of these MXUS 45mm motors are?
e4bike - do you have any test data?

 

[John in CR]

Correct and true in theory and real world. But in a Practical world we never lower voltage because we only have one battery and never increase the Battery Amps because we already feed our controller with maximum what it can take. This goes for 80% of users here. So this is why we always choose a motor by our battery/controller combo.

Go ahead and make up more reasons to claim that the 3 turn motor is different and shouldn't be used due to some fantom shortcoming. Your 80% figure is PFTA, Pulled From Thin Air. People got the new motor to run at the same voltage and current???...I don't think so, why bother changing the motor to run the same power? Anyone running any part of their system (controller, motor, or battery) at it's maximum potential will soon need to buy new parts to replace the ones being blown.

Keeping the same voltage I'll agree with. I even use a standard voltage that works for both lipo and lifepo, so I can have a standard charging setup for all of my bikes. Keeping the same voltage is even more reason to go with a 3T, because people are buying the new motor to get more performance. With the 3T they can lace it into a slightly smaller wheel, juice up the current by 15-20%, and end up with a motor under less stress, but have more acceleration and higher top speed. Isn't that why they wanted the new motor to begin with, to get more performance?

Following the advice of myth promoters is why people end up running their systems at their limits, which causes failures. eg The guys running 24s, when every EE worth his salt recommends not running 100V components at 100V. The Myth now has people pushing hard for more expensive and less stable 120V controllers, while the 2T motors that are very similar to the V1 MXUS3000 that I got back in 2008 are still running fine and capable of 100kph+ on the 74V nominal battery standard I've adopted, and that's pushing heavy ebikes with a fat guy riding in a mountaineous country with significant hills on every route. If anything the Myth promoters said was true, my ebikes wouldn't be possible, much less the extreme power rig that's my main bike now. Pushing a 400lb load it will blast up the steepest hills and can exceed 100mph on the highway and has staggering acceleration. I must rely on magic not physics. There's absolutely no reason you lightweight guys can't get fairly close with this 45mm motor due to your much lighter loads, unless you get a motor that's wound too slow. Because it's a mid 80's peak efficiency motor with cheap thick stator steel, you'll have to do better cooling than just holes in the covers to keep it cool if you push for really high performance, but that is true regardless of which winding you have.

 

[Allex]

I never said it was diff. But it performs diff at the same voltage/amperage, right?
That is how most people do.
What about Stealth users or Mac users? They use same battery but swap motors to get different performance. They don't touch the controller nor the battery. When a person order e-kit, he decides on a specific battery and then he thinks twice on which turn count to get for his ride.
And then we have a bunch of people who, like you said, use 24s and make their Xie Chang blow because many use their systems at their limits. This goes for batteries, motors and controllers.

So are you suggesting that everybody should buy MXUS3k 3T instead of 4t, lace it to 24 instead of 26" drop the voltage but increase the DC amps - in the end everybody will be happy because of the cooler running motor?

 

[John in CR]

I never said it was diff. But it performs diff at the same voltage/amperage, right?
That is how most people do.
What about Stealth users or Mac users? They use same battery but swap motors to get different performance. They don't touch the controller nor the battery. When a person order e-kit, he decides on a specific battery and then he thinks twice on which turn count to get for his ride.
And then we have a bunch of people who, like you said, use 24s and make their Xie Chang blow because many use their systems at their limits. This goes for batteries, motors and controllers.

So are you suggesting that everybody should buy MXUS3k 3T instead of 4t, lace it to 24 instead of 26" drop the voltage but increase the DC amps - in the end everybody will be happy because of the cooler running motor?

80% is now "most". hmmm.

Why should someone need to change anything on a $10k ebike (or whatever they cost now)?

MAC should be ashamed of themselves for calling one motor a "hi torque" motor.

I didn't say anything about dropping the voltage, except to point out how to get identical performance, efficiency, etc. from the motor people are saying will run hot or that it must run a smaller tire to survive. I also would never recommend someone run a 24" bicycle tire, or any bicycle tire with a high powered hubmotor. There's a lot more variety in the resulting OD of a wheel using a moped or moto tire.

I always suggest using the smallest wheel you can live with, because all hubmotors are happier at the resulting lower gearing. On her craptastic scooter/ebike my daughter climbed steeper hills with no heat issues than I can with my cargo bike, and that's with a same design motor with only a 25mm stator. Sure her load was lighter, but not much more than many of you, so what made it possible was the 16" OD wheel on the motor and a setup for only 25mph top speed.

Current is where most shoot themselves in the foot, and it's not so much the battery current, but the phase current, because that's the cause of most motor failures. Even the technical people at the Chinese controller factories don't get that part, because they try to apply what's done with low power unstressed hubbies which need help in startup torque to high power controllers running powerful high torque hubbies. The result is unnecessarily high phase currents that kill controllers and motors, and have such uncontrollable launches that people look for bandaids to smooth starts but leave the system wide open to heat failures in common partial speed conditions. To answer your question about current I'd say yes and no. Yes higher battery current, but no probably lower phase current limits. That would be qualified with the recommendation that everyone take the time to properly tune their system to perform it's best. It is a lot less effort than changing batteries, controllers, or motors, but is likely to produce better results....Plus it doesn't cost anything. This is an all but ignored topic on ES.

Your idea of swapping a motor and not changing the controller settings is about the worst idea I can think of.

Did you know that Justin's tests showed the stator of a 7 turn 9 strand 9C hubby starts to saturate at 70 phase amps? That would suggest that these 4 turn motors may start to saturate around 125A in phase current. My results running my 2 turn very similar motor at 250A peak on the phases without drastic heat issues would support that conclusion, as does all the heat problems people have with slow wind motors pushed to silly high phase current limits. Saturation isn't a fixed point where you're fine and suddenly hit a brick wall, but you start to have decreasing returns with increase current with lower efficiency (extra heat) as the result, so with cooling mods you may be able to dip into the beginnings of saturation, but it's best to avoid it.

Misconceptions are rampant in these regards, and not just with ESers. Motor and controller manufacturers are typically right there too. Other than to stop spreading baseless myths, the only broad recommendation you'll get out of me is a smaller wheel size. With so many using top speed as their performance gauge, the 4 turn 9rpm/volt will leave you wanting, probably even after spending extra money on a high voltage controller. With a 12+rpm/volt version it's certainly not "dangerous", but as you push the controllers higher you'll want to check them for heat, but I think that's the motor most would be happiest with. All of the motors I use are 16rpm/volt or higher, so controllers are the only thing I take care in not pushing too hard.

The other thing I caution people about is shooting for a high top speed on the road with a bike you want to ride slowly under heavy loads off-road. Regardless of the winding, if you're set up for high speed, then riding at low speed has lower efficiency. When I increase the voltage on mine by 50% I took about a 20% hit in wh/mile at similar errand running speeds. While my bike has the torque and power to blast up incredibly steep mountain roads, and can dump the massive heat, I would never consider trying to cruise up the same roads at low speed. It's the same reason Zero's dirt bike is geared lower than the street machines. Big heavy high efficiency motors get you the closest to having your cake and eating it too.

 

[BoomerChomsi]

Thanks all for great info! 8)

So there is no need to buy the expensive Big Brother Cromotor when I use 72V pack?
MXUS3000 V2 is a half price so I can buy two instead of one Cromotor

 

[arkmundi]

Your idea of swapping a motor and not changing the controller settings is about the worst idea I can think of.

Ah, my very idea & issue. One bike, one controller, one battery, two motors: Mac 10T and MXUS 3000. Battery to Mac is 48V 40ah. Battery to MXUS is 96V 20ah via simple cabling switch from parallel to serial. Then the controller. Against Cellman's recommendation, got his 12fet 4110 controller to run high amps, which he said was "extreme" for the motor. Promised I'd run the Mac at 48V. But wanted the opportunity to at least experiment with motor swapping. And yea, it had occurred to me that I'd want to change the controller settings.

Which means the capability to do that. I was surprised that Cellman provided NO information or software or anything other than the USB cable on the controller. So now I'm left with the good members of the ES forum to enter the information vacuum. Reference to good threads, reads on the how-tos would be most appreciated.

 

[teslanv]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27927

XPD is your best bet, Arkmundi.

 

[zombiess]

Which means the capability to do that. I was surprised that Cellman provided NO information or software or anything other than the USB cable on the controller. So now I'm left with the good members of the ES forum to enter the information vacuum. Reference to good threads, reads on the how-tos would be most appreciated.

You can use xpd. Another choice is to run the modified software I hex edited. I have posted it several times in various threads over the years. I think I posted it in some of my old controller sale threads as well. Search for threads started by me with the keyword software and something should pop up. I have also posted lots of info on programming settings on these controllers and the effects.

John in CR has also posted lots of tuning info (his info really helped get me started in tuning the xie change for better performance). You will see him and I both reccomend to not run over 2.5x ratio batt to phase. I usually end up around 1.33-1.75x

If you can't find the software just pm me and I'll dig it up for you.

 

[Allex]

Why should someone need to change anything on a $10k ebike (or whatever they cost now)?

MAC should be ashamed of themselves for calling one motor a "hi torque" motor.

You will be suprised, but a few of them do a lot of mods to the bikes. I don't want to argue with you because your knowledge is beyond my. I just point things out from forum messages. But it seems to work when Rix changed from Clyte 5403 to 5404 on His Bomber and from 4080 on his fighter to 4065 - he states that he have more torque after the swap. Same goes with people on MACs 8t vs 6t. So I guess that must be some kind of Placebo effect they having unless they modify or swap the controllers/batterys.

Sorry for a bit Offtop.

Boomer: Cromotor can take more power. Cro is rated 6kW nominal, this one 3kW.

 

[striker54]

was surprised that Cellman provided NO information or software or anything other than the USB cable on the controller. So now I'm left with the good members of the ES forum to enter the information vacuum. Reference to good threads, reads on the how-tos would be most appreciated.

I have a 12fet 4110 from cellman too. You have to send him an email and then he reply with the links for the software and instructions.
But the software is really old. As teslanv said, go with the last version of XPD. It's a lot better than the keywin parameter software.

When using the XPD you have to select the 12 fet cellman type controller profile and then change the parameters that you want.

 

[John in CR]

Why should someone need to change anything on a $10k ebike (or whatever they cost now)?

MAC should be ashamed of themselves for calling one motor a "hi torque" motor.

You will be suprised, but a few of them do a lot of mods to the bikes. I don't want to argue with you because your knowledge is beyond my. I just point things out from forum messages. But it seems to work when Rix changed from Clyte 5403 to 5404 on His Bomber and from 4080 on his fighter to 4065 - he states that he have more torque after the swap. Same goes with people on MACs 8t vs 6t. So I guess that must be some kind of Placebo effect they having unless they modify or swap the controllers/batterys.

I know people change them, I was mostly joking, but changing a motor without tuning the controller is foolish. If the new slower wind motors handle the same current without issue, then all they had to do was increase the current limit to the original motor to get the same amount of additional torque since if more turns of less copper can handle the current, then the faster wind can handle proportionately more.

 

[BoomerChomsi]

>>>> Alex thank you! 8)
O well for this price I will try this beauty.
And will upgrade later to the Big Brother...

 

[arkmundi]

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27927

XPD is your best bet, Arkmundi.

You're the best, teslanv! Many thanks for the thread reference. Check out my 2 min video - First Spin of MAC 10T. MXUS 3000 will also go onto an Alex DX32 with Maxxis Hookworms. Ordered up my spokes from Holmes today.

 

[madin88]

I know people change them, I was mostly joking, but changing a motor without tuning the controller is foolish. If the new slower wind motors handle the same current without issue, then all they had to do was increase the current limit to the original motor to get the same amount of additional torque since if more turns of less copper can handle the current, then the faster wind can handle proportionately more.

question:
you have a motor/bike with 100kmh no load top speed and want to crawl up a hill only 10kmh (you cannot go faster because the road is bad).
than crawl up the same road with the same bike but with a motor which has twice the turn count or only 50kmh no load top speed.

same battery and controller settings.

which setup does the job more efficient?

 

[teslanv]

I know people change them, I was mostly joking, but changing a motor without tuning the controller is foolish. If the new slower wind motors handle the same current without issue, then all they had to do was increase the current limit to the original motor to get the same amount of additional torque since if more turns of less copper can handle the current, then the faster wind can handle proportionately more.

question:
you have a motor/bike with 100kmh no load top speed and want to crawl up a hill only 10kmh (you cannot go faster because the road is bad).
than crawl up the same road with the same bike but with a motor which has twice the turn count or only 50kmh no load top speed.

same battery and controller settings.

which setup does the job more efficient?

Answer: None of the above. For this ^^^ application you want a mid drive and 8-speed cassette in the rear.

 

[John in CR]

I know people change them, I was mostly joking, but changing a motor without tuning the controller is foolish. If the new slower wind motors handle the same current without issue, then all they had to do was increase the current limit to the original motor to get the same amount of additional torque since if more turns of less copper can handle the current, then the faster wind can handle proportionately more.

question:
you have a motor/bike with 100kmh no load top speed and want to crawl up a hill only 10kmh (you cannot go faster because the road is bad).
than crawl up the same road with the same bike but with a motor which has twice the turn count or only 50kmh no load top speed.

same battery and controller settings.

which setup does the job more efficient?

Answer: None of the above. For this ^^^ application you want a mid drive and 8-speed cassette in the rear.

I agree with the mid-drive, but the bike chain and cassette won't hold up with my loads.

I actually have a 3 motors with series parallel switching that accomplish the change in no-load speed. Not many ESrs were interested and I sold out what the factory had with no more to come. The 3 remaining aren't for sale. The part Madin88 is missing though is that the controller behaves differently to the 4X increase in resistance and greatly increased inductance, so at the same controller settings you don't get anywhere close to 2X the torque.

Another option is to break the battery pack in half and install a series parallel switch. Then the speed wind motor will do both and handle the climb with the same efficiency as the slow wind.

The better option would be a big mid drive attached to the swingarm that handles the 100kph with ease. Run double sets of sprockets with 2 gearings that have the same drive+driven total teeth, and a tightly sprung idler with a release mechanism, so when you get to your offroad riding location you can easily move the chain over to the lower gearing. Well aligned and tight chains can be very quiet, and this alignment gives you great power and more torque at the wheel off road, along with more efficient hill climbing and you get to keep regen braking for the downhill side for even more range. If you want to give up regen, are willing to give up rolling your bike backward, can find suitable freewheels, and can handle the clacking of multiple freewheels, then two chains and retrodirect will do the job, and changing gear is just a matter of installing a reverse button for the motor.

A 100kph single speed creeping under heavy load at 10kph requires a very large motor to avoid miserable failure, so it's best to grow some balls and blast up that hill if you don't have a two speed.

 

[Allex]

But John, you forgot to answer Madins question.

 

[BoomerChomsi]

Does anyone knows what torque this motor has?

Thank you! 8)

 

[999zip999]

Big spoke holes will spaim 13/14 work. Or does it need bigger spokes will it won't work better ? This is for an alxerms dm 24 26in. Rim ?

 

[bataanjr]

(Does anyone knows what torque this motor has?)

Simple unless cromotor but more than all others.