wesnewell
100 GW
M14 x 1.5mm thread, not 2mm.
MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3
- Thread starter Allex
- Start date
chucho
1 kW
What do you guys recomend me for this motor in a 20" bicycle rim... 0 or 1 cross? 11g, 12g or 13g?
John in CR
100 TW
chucho said:
Radial lacing is never appropriate for a drive wheel. Quality 14ga.
wesnewell
100 GW
If you're going to radial lace it, use the biggest spokes you can. The motor is drilled fro 10G spokes. I wouldn't use anything less than 12G, and you'll need spoke washer for them.
teslanv
1 MW
I request your input on a poll thread for the MXUS motors in Laced Rims.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64960
If you have purchased or plan/hope to purchase one of these motors in the future, please give your feedback, as it may help to guide my purchasing decisions.
Thanks,
~Teslanv
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=64960
If you have purchased or plan/hope to purchase one of these motors in the future, please give your feedback, as it may help to guide my purchasing decisions.
Thanks,
~Teslanv
chucho
1 kW
teklektik said:
That is great!! Thank you very much for sharing
But no clue how to calculate spoke length.. Need some help :| This is the way i did it with radial
Thank you also to John and wesnewell for the help :wink:
I haven't done this myself, but it looks like you do the same thing as with radial (0-cross) but check the 'paired' box and add the pairing info to the field.chucho said:...no clue how to calculate spoke length.. Need some help :|
This is the way i did it with radial
(I finagled your illustration above)
With the box unchecked, the 'Paired Hole Spacing' in the greyed out field seems to display the computed 'evenly spaced' hole distance based on Hub Flange Diameter and Number of Spokes.
I'm not a wheelbuilder, but based on Justin's remarks I'd start reducing the default 'even spacing' value until the spacing yielded an angle in the zone Justin recommended. Others more skilled at this may offer better suggestions.justin_le said:
John in CR
100 TW
Teslanv,
You worded the poll as if the myth regarding torque wound motors was true. Kiwifiat and Kingfish got their legs cut out from under them by the real experts, so the myth is toast. Even Madin88 has come around though he prefers to save some weight in copper outside the motor, There's no difference in torque the torque they can make, and different winds make the same heat for the same torque. A high turn count motor doesn't make you able to run a bigger wheel, or climb a mountain any better.
I'm sure you want no part in selling something based on misleading information, it behooves you to gain a good understanding of this, and then you can make educated ordering decisions and give customers good advice. Because controller voltage limitations are real, there's an opportunity for a real competitive advantage by offering a 3T for those who want to maximize power. Until you step up to the much heavier highest power hubmotors for big scooters, higher Kv motors aren't generally available, so there is a gap in the market waiting to be filled.
You worded the poll as if the myth regarding torque wound motors was true. Kiwifiat and Kingfish got their legs cut out from under them by the real experts, so the myth is toast. Even Madin88 has come around though he prefers to save some weight in copper outside the motor, There's no difference in torque the torque they can make, and different winds make the same heat for the same torque. A high turn count motor doesn't make you able to run a bigger wheel, or climb a mountain any better.
I'm sure you want no part in selling something based on misleading information, it behooves you to gain a good understanding of this, and then you can make educated ordering decisions and give customers good advice. Because controller voltage limitations are real, there's an opportunity for a real competitive advantage by offering a 3T for those who want to maximize power. Until you step up to the much heavier highest power hubmotors for big scooters, higher Kv motors aren't generally available, so there is a gap in the market waiting to be filled.
chucho
1 kW
teklektik said:
Each day i love you more :lol: :lol: :lol: You are a very helpful genius
Thank you very very much for the answer and for the edit :wink:
I choose 15mm cause it is an easy number to measure and is near Justin ideal. If no one has any other advice or correction i will do it like this:
teslanv
1 MW
John in CR said:
Regardless of whether the "Myth" is true or not, the majority of ebike builders still refer to the different windings as "High Speed" and "High Torque". I'm just sticking to socially accepted norms.
In my opinion, calling them anything else just confuses people even more.
For the record, I understand better now how much a smaller diameter wheel/tire affects the performance of "High-Speed" Motors. Obvious efficiency gains can be made by choosing the smallest acceptable diameter tire in any winding of motor.
arkmundi
10 MW
Yea, I'd defer to Justin's judgement with respect to all things wheelbuilding around a hub. For smaller wheels - 20 to 24", I'd also aim for that, a 0-cross radial, and use a 12 or 13 gauge spoke, perhaps 10 or 11, but would defer to JRH and would get the spokes, or a full build from him.chucho & teklektik said:
Using Justin's spoke calculator for my MXUS build for a 1-cross on 26" wheel, its coming out at 76 degrees, which is close enough. FYI, 13/14 gauge butted Sapim spokes for this wheel, from JRH. Taking roadrash's offer of washers. Will this week decide whether to washer up the holes or drill new holes for these spokes. Within a week expect to have my wheel fully built. Also, now will be putting this on my Gary Fisher Gitchee for a two-wheel drive. Currently has a Heinzmann geared 500 watt hub on the front and this new wheel will go on the rear. So in & around town, slow & torqued on the front wheel. On the road, kick in the MXUS for speed. Still haven't decided what controller I'll use. The Infineon 12fet 4110 from EM3ev is on the Trek for the MAC 48V. So, am in the market for a new controller if anyone has any suggestions.
Most everyone will have one, maybe two eBike builds and will be in no position to judge the veracity of any particular thesis regarding "speed" and "torque". The general recommendation here on ES should be to pick one of the better vendors, like GrinTech or EM3ev, tell 'em what you want in the way of the price, speed, battery, weight, distance trade-offs, and trust their recommendation, leaving the "speed versus torque" question out. The MXUS group buy is for a more advanced crowd and hopefully, there aren't any newbies in the buy.teslanv said:
Regarding "speed versus torque" question, I don't care now, having committed to the 5T. But there are two relevant things which I have not heard much about on this thread - geared versus ungeared motors, and the number of phases. The MAC, for instance is geared and thereby capable of delivering more torque than the same amount of copper in a DD. So is the Heinzmann, my choice for my first eBike.
The second thing is the number of phase circuits. The MXUS and most all hub motors on the market are brushless with Hall sensors and are 3 phase. But there is emerging a set of new motors built around a 5-phase design. Falco Motors http://www.falcoemotors.com/ from http://www.electricbicycleworld.com/ purportedly is and says they offer the highest delivered torque for a brushless motor on the market today, because of its advanced design, motor & controller. I believe it may be true, but again, like most people, am in no position to test theory or reliably compare the performance of various motors.
Thnks.
macribs
10 MW
- Joined
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@arkmundi
And there is also some 6 phase motors around. John got at least 2 motors with 6 phase. I am not gonna get into the whole thing here as well as we already have had many threads about this matter. But I will go with the saying that a "6 phase is like having two 3 phase motors in one motor casing". Each of the 3 phases are run by it's own controller. So the strain and heat for each controller is noticeable less when pushing the limits, as the load from the motor are split onto two controllers. People that have tried those motors reports great acceleration and climbing ability. Is the torque of a 6 phase motor in fact greater then a 3 phase? - well I guess the jury is still out on that one. But for me it seems many of those who are not willing to see advantages from a 6 phase have never tried one them-self. Some real life testing should be done to the matter to once and for all determine that facts regarding the effect on the number of phases.
But those 6 phase motors are almost dead quiet. And are much more smooth then 3 phase motors.
Best part is that they are not selling with high end prices, rather they are affordable. And splitting the load onto two controllers means you can get away with two less expensive controller then if you run a high output 3 phase motor with single controller.
Those 5 phase motors I have yet to look into, it seems there have been some studies made that I guess was the reason behind the launch of those motors. AFAIK there is only that company pushing 5 phase motors.
And there is also some 6 phase motors around. John got at least 2 motors with 6 phase. I am not gonna get into the whole thing here as well as we already have had many threads about this matter. But I will go with the saying that a "6 phase is like having two 3 phase motors in one motor casing". Each of the 3 phases are run by it's own controller. So the strain and heat for each controller is noticeable less when pushing the limits, as the load from the motor are split onto two controllers. People that have tried those motors reports great acceleration and climbing ability. Is the torque of a 6 phase motor in fact greater then a 3 phase? - well I guess the jury is still out on that one. But for me it seems many of those who are not willing to see advantages from a 6 phase have never tried one them-self. Some real life testing should be done to the matter to once and for all determine that facts regarding the effect on the number of phases.
But those 6 phase motors are almost dead quiet. And are much more smooth then 3 phase motors.
Best part is that they are not selling with high end prices, rather they are affordable. And splitting the load onto two controllers means you can get away with two less expensive controller then if you run a high output 3 phase motor with single controller.
Those 5 phase motors I have yet to look into, it seems there have been some studies made that I guess was the reason behind the launch of those motors. AFAIK there is only that company pushing 5 phase motors.
John in CR
100 TW
teslanv said:
Call one the High Torque High Kv and the other High Torque Low Kv. Then both get the sizzle, and there's no confusion, nothing misleading, and it helps break the myth that slower winds are higher in torque than any other winding of the same motor. In fact, you'd be the only one selling a high Kv motor that's called High Torque, giving you a bit of an edge. I wouldn't get many of the slower wind motors though, because virtually everyone who's ever bought one was based on the mythical idea that they'd get more torque out of it. Who wouldn't want to run just 36V if they wanted to go slow, and have the flexibility later to double it up if they wanted high speed? The beauty of that arrangement is real flexibility, because you can use the same bulk chargers for both Lipo and lifepo4 whether it's 10s and 12s or doubling up and going 20s and 24s, and if it was the 3T motor no one would even need to try to approach 100V off the charger unless speed was the be all to end all. If I buy a pallet of them, it will definitely only be 3T motors.
Allex
100 MW
So can you explain for the usual mortal people in here why Hub motors exists in different windings? Is it because manufacturers do not understand and driven by the Myth?
chucho
1 kW
Allex said:
I think... it is for having diferent speed for same voltage
Allex
100 MW
johnrobholmes
10 MW
chucho said:Allex said:
I think... it is for having diferent speed for same voltage
Yes, or having the same speed with different voltage. Some 20mph, 30mph, 36v, 48v, 72v, many combinations possible.
Allex
100 MW
Why not change the battery configurations instead, like John Suggest? I guess that this is because it is easier to swap out the motor and consumer will get worse performance instead of trying to reconfigure the battery that is built in the frame or a case which is more time consuming and may not be possible?
I guess some one should put this up in FAQ section. That it is always better to buy a high speed motor and instead reconfigure the batteries and the controller
I guess some one should put this up in FAQ section. That it is always better to buy a high speed motor and instead reconfigure the batteries and the controller
999zip999
100 TW
It's easier to have a 24s or 80v 60a battery then a 16s 55v 90amp. battery.
John in CR
100 TW
Liveforphysics says voltage doesn't matter as far as the motor is concerned, so I was wrong, and there's no need to change the battery config. That means if you want more torque, simply turn the current higher on the controller. If the slower wind motor you want to buy can handle the same current you are running, then the motor you have now will handle more. Then for off road or other low speed high load riding, using a 3 speed switch should help you dial you back down to the same performance and heat generation that you would have had with the slower motor. This may be necessary If you're dancing with the thermal limits, because the torque curve of the slower wind motor drops off more quickly with rpm (which means heat generation and acceleration fall off more quickly too), and a lower setting via the 3 speed will help keep you from using the extra performance of the speed wind. ie spread the same top speed as the slow motor over the 100% throttle range. Going really slow in those conditions, you may find using an even lower speed limit setting useful.
The only low speed riding I do is on very steep downhill grades or on flat road, so I haven't actually done this to know conclusively. I have used lower speed switch settings to dial back extreme power and tame dangerous throttles on takeoff. That means better throttle control over current, so I'm pretty sure the thought process is correct. I realize though how it's nearly impossible to resist using extra performance, but that's a poor reason to go to the expense and trouble of putting on slower wind motor.
Also, I wouldn't say it's always better to go with a speed wind motor. Maybe someone already has all their stuff, but needs a new motor and isn't interested in speed. OTOH, the guys who aren't chasing performance should experience how smooth a speed wind motor can be at lower current.
The only low speed riding I do is on very steep downhill grades or on flat road, so I haven't actually done this to know conclusively. I have used lower speed switch settings to dial back extreme power and tame dangerous throttles on takeoff. That means better throttle control over current, so I'm pretty sure the thought process is correct. I realize though how it's nearly impossible to resist using extra performance, but that's a poor reason to go to the expense and trouble of putting on slower wind motor.
Also, I wouldn't say it's always better to go with a speed wind motor. Maybe someone already has all their stuff, but needs a new motor and isn't interested in speed. OTOH, the guys who aren't chasing performance should experience how smooth a speed wind motor can be at lower current.
999zip999
100 TW
For what reason would you like a 5t over a 4t ?
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