MXUS 3000 Hub Motor - V1 V2 V3

[Punx0r]

:lol:

 

[Miles]

 

[999zip999]

I'm talking about John need for 3 or 4t high amp solution. Not just for more copper.

 

[Lyo]

Oh alright

 

[John in CR]

For what reason would you like a 5t over a 4t ?

If you want more torque/less top end speed but then you could just as well go for a smaller rim size.

I'm talking about John need for 3 or 4t high amp solution. Not just for more copper.

I personally am only interested in 3T.

There is no more torque with a 5T over a 4T (or a 3T for that matter), which is why PunxOr and Miles laughed. It also means all can run the same size wheel, though a smaller rim size will always perform better with direct drive hubbies, because they are all too steeply geared, which is why the motor is so big just to be able have any chance at driving the big wheels people prefer. The gearing is so steep with a 26" wheel that quite often top speed doesn't change at all with a smaller wheel. When LFP was down in 2010 we rode bikes with identical 2T motors (virtually identical to MXUS 3000 V1 except 40mm stators and different side covers). He got the one he rode up to 61mph, though being bigger I only ever got it to 60 on flat road. It had a 24" tire. The one I rode maxed out at 60mph running a 20" tire.

Regarding high amps, they aren't a requirement. Those 2T motors came with 30A controllers and were used to push 275lb scooters with wheels ranging from 10" scooter wheels (16" diameter) up to 17" motor wheels (23-24" OD). Guys who aren't chasing high performance really need to try a speed wind with strict current limiting. Nothing is smoother and acceleration is just a steady strong continuous pull. The performance chasers simply add more current to make acceleration what they want, and unlike the slow wind motors they can handle the current without going into saturation and melting down.

 

[Allex]

Suppose I only have one battery, 74Volts But I can tune the controller.
I have one 5T and one 4T of mxus3k and 24" wheels
My driving style is very aggressive, accelerate from 10km/h to 50 then brake down and accelerate to 50 again.
Which motor will overheat faster and which one will take me faster to the 50s?

 

[arkmundi]

John, what are the top 3 controllers you'd use with this motor? 18fet necessary, or 12fet OK. How about the Infineon 12fet 4110 controllers - OK? Thanks.

 

[macribs]

Suppose I only have one battery, 74Volts But I can tune the controller.
I have one 5T and one 4T of mxus3k and 24" wheels
My driving style is very aggressive, accelerate from 10km/h to 50 then brake down and accelerate to 50 again.
Which motor will overheat faster and which one will take me faster to the 50s?

Get yet another one 3T

Well in what seems to be consensus now it would be to choose the lowest number. You already got a field weakening controller, correct? So it appears you would not stand to gain that much if you should increase voltage. As controller will take EMF and make "usable energy".

So I put money on 4Tm if you can't make a swap for a 3T.
4T would have less problem with heat due to thicker wire.

 

[John in CR]

Suppose I only have one battery, 74Volts But I can tune the controller.
I have one 5T and one 4T of mxus3k and 24" wheels
My driving style is very aggressive, accelerate from 10km/h to 50 then brake down and accelerate to 50 again.
Which motor will overheat faster and which one will take me faster to the 50s?

Neither will get you into the 50's, mph that is. The 4T will give you more power and acceleration, because you'll be feeding it more power, and since it's making more torque it will make more heat. Just like any Nascar driver can burn up his tires in a few short laps, stock hubmotors can be easily overheated. I'd strongly suggest learning the limits of your system and what creates the most heat and what sheds it best, so you can learn to ride in a manner where the motor never overheats. Add good cooling mods and you can extend the performance. The tortoise will always win, because hubmotors cool extremely slowly when overheated, but their performance is awesome enough that you can mix in being the hare some of the time. It's a matter of understanding for how long and when you can be the most aggressive. As far as motor heat is concerned the best place to be aggressive is not slowing down so much or too as low a speed, so hone your skills to be the most aggressive in the curves and turns to maintain the most kinetic energy.

 

[John in CR]

Suppose I only have one battery, 74Volts But I can tune the controller.
I have one 5T and one 4T of mxus3k and 24" wheels
My driving style is very aggressive, accelerate from 10km/h to 50 then brake down and accelerate to 50 again.
Which motor will overheat faster and which one will take me faster to the 50s?

Get yet another one 3T

Well in what seems to be consensus now it would be to choose the lowest number. You already got a field weakening controller, correct? So it appears you would not stand to gain that much if you should increase voltage. As controller will take EMF and make "usable energy".

So I put money on 4Tm if you can't make a swap for a 3T.
4T would have less problem with heat due to thicker wire.

It's better to start from the idea that they're the same motor, because that's the long and short of it. With a fixed voltage the higher current handling of the 4T will give it more torque in the mid range, because you're feeding it more power, but it will come at the price of more heat.

 

[John in CR]

John, what are the top 3 controllers you'd use with this motor? 18fet necessary, or 12fet OK. How about the Infineon 12fet 4110 controllers - OK? Thanks.

Not enough info, but I'm a cheapskate. I can't answer your question right now, but in the next few weeks I should be able to after I test the 6 controllers I got for testing in October. If I had a wish list it would be for a custom Lebowski controller built for me by Lebowski or LFP. We're finally seeing some advancement in controllers, so I'd save the controller for last. A 12 fet wouldn't be enough for me, but maybe for you lighter guys they can provide satisfying power.

 

[Allex]

It's better to start from the idea that they're the same motor, because that's the long and short of it. With a fixed voltage the higher current handling of the 4T will give it more torque in the mid range, because you're feeding it more power, but it will come at the price of more heat.

What about low range?

 

[arkmundi]

Not enough info, but I'm a cheapskate. I can't answer your question right now, but in the next few weeks I should be able to after I test the 6 controllers I got for testing in October. If I had a wish list it would be for a custom Lebowski controller built for me by Lebowski or LFP. We're finally seeing some advancement in controllers, so I'd save the controller for last. A 12 fet wouldn't be enough for me, but maybe for you lighter guys they can provide satisfying power.

I'll hold off for the moment. FYI, I have the bike (its going on the Gary Fisher Gitchee for a 2WD), motor, rim & spokes (Alexrims DX32 & JHR 13/14 butted), battery (A123 AMP20 custom build at 72V or 96V - undecided, but have the cells)... everything except a controller & throttle set). Would like to finish off the build by December 25th if possible.

 

[Allex]

Russians will release their cheap 12FET sine-wave soon.

 

[John in CR]

It's better to start from the idea that they're the same motor, because that's the long and short of it. With a fixed voltage the higher current handling of the 4T will give it more torque in the mid range, because you're feeding it more power, but it will come at the price of more heat.

What about low range?

It all depends on controller settings. Torque curves start at the highest torque at 0 rpm and decrease from there. The maximum possible at 0rpm is the same for both motors with the speed wind set using the proportionately higher current limit as previously discussed. That same starting torque equality applies as long as the current limit relationship is the same. Running the same pack voltage the torque curve for the slower motor is steeper because BEMF limits current more quickly, so user tendency would be to keep its current limits closer to the motor's limit for better torque during acceleration. That's not as necessary with the faster wind motor, because the torque curve is flatter. Where it gets interesting is when the relative current limits are set somewhat lower for the speed wind motor. While you give up some launch torque, which typically can't even be used (as demonstrated by everyone needing to tame throttle response on launch with high power rigs), leg power can provide the best assist with just a few pedal strokes from 0 rpm. Until you get to the rpm where the torque curves cross, the speed motor would be making less heat, and above that point it makes more torque and more heat. Where cumulative heat, and therefore average efficiency, end up depends on settings, but better performance where it counts for the same or better overall efficiency would be a great goal in tuning.

 

[John in CR]

Russians will release their cheap 12FET sine-wave soon.

I picked up a few 12fet sine-wave controllers with irfb4110's for less than $60 each about a year and a half ago. What do you consider cheap?

 

[Allex]

Not sure yet, but would not be surprised if it's in the same price range. Because it is simple design without fancy features and no screen.
It will have torque control mode instead of the traditional speed control.
What I miss the most on my Adaptto sine-wave is the aggressive launch because it control the amps and not the speed so it is very, very, smooth. So I have to change my throttle curve, make it steeper.
Controllers of yours, are they programmable, do they have regen and what about Throttle mode - is it speed or torque?

 

[John in CR]

Not sure yet, but would not be surprised if it's in the same price range. Because it is simple design without fancy features and no screen.
It will have torque control mode instead of the traditional speed control.
What I miss the most on my Adaptto sine-wave is the aggressive launch because it control the amps and not the speed so it is very, very, smooth. So I have to change my throttle curve, make it steeper.
Controllers of yours, are they programmable, do they have regen and what about Throttle mode - is it speed or torque?

Those were just cheap no frills controllers with fixed programming from Greentime. The only difference was sine wave making the motor more quiet, and it was nice to be able to order them with 4110's. They may not even be available now. I only threw it out there as an example of what low price means. Hopefully our Russian friends can grow to a good volume and drive the price down, because their stuff is good quality packed with useful features. I just can't get past the pricing to try them myself. With the Chinese jumping on the sine wave bandwagon that should put downward pressure on prices.

 

[macribs]

Not sure yet, but would not be surprised if it's in the same price range. Because it is simple design without fancy features and no screen.
It will have torque control mode instead of the traditional speed control.
What I miss the most on my Adaptto sine-wave is the aggressive launch because it control the amps and not the speed so it is very, very, smooth. So I have to change my throttle curve, make it steeper.
Controllers of yours, are they programmable, do they have regen and what about Throttle mode - is it speed or torque?

Without fancy features? Besides the screen what else will it lack compared to the 2 Adaptto's we know today?
No screen is actually a winner for me, cos I could easily pick up any needed info from canbus via smartphone. That way there would be one less thing (screen) to worry about when parking the bike. And any and all settings can be done by pc I reckon or even smartphone so no stress there either.

But I must say they outset of missing out on features from the other controllers I don't like too much.

When will they launch this controller?

 

[madin88]

It's better to start from the idea that they're the same motor, because that's the long and short of it. With a fixed voltage the higher current handling of the 4T will give it more torque in the mid range, because you're feeding it more power, but it will come at the price of more heat.

What about low range?

exactly thats the point no one could give an answer by now.
i'm thinking of someone has a stock stealth bike and now he decides to ride more offroad and not that fast, so he swaps the motor from a HS to a HT one
same controller setttings and battery voltage

while the slow motor (as example 5t 60kmh no load speed) produces more low end torque and therefore heat, it produces less heat in the upper mid to topspeed range.
the high speed motor (as example 3t 85kmh no load speed) has to be tamed down much more by the throttle for the slower speed and - IMO - therefore more heat is produced in the mid to topspeed range because if you twist the throttle at 40kmh more power flows into the 3t motor than doing the same with the 5t motor.

Is it true or false?

 

[Allex]

Well. I was actually talking about e4bike.ru controller. I will let them speak for them selfs about it - and they will when it is ready.
Adaptto is aiming at High End, so their prices will be higher than Infineon/cheapo Chinese Sine-waves type controllers.
What is really interesting to note is that Old school dogs on the forum continue to run cheap ones while the freshly registered guys in here buys expensive Adaptto.

 

[windtrader]

What is really interesting to note is that Old school dogs on the forum continue to run cheap ones while the freshly registered guys in here buys expensive Adaptto.

Experience teaches when one runs well within the design specs stuff holds up. Right sizing all your components is the key to maximizing durability and performance.

 

[macribs]

Well. I was actually talking about e4bike.ru controller. I will let them speak for them selfs about it - and they will when it is ready.
Adaptto is aiming at High End, so their prices will be higher than Infineon/cheapo Chinese Sine-waves type controllers.
What is really interesting to note is that Old school dogs on the forum continue to run cheap ones while the freshly registered guys in here buys expensive Adaptto.

Oh ok, I thought the new sine wave with torque control was also from Adaptto. It seems that the e4bike.ru site only lists Infineon controllers at the moment. Any idea as to when there new controller will be out - and if it will be homebrewn controller or a rebranded Chinese?

 

[macribs]

Russians will release their cheap 12FET sine-wave soon.

I picked up a few 12fet sine-wave controllers with irfb4110's for less than $60 each about a year and a half ago. What do you consider cheap?

What controllers are that John, and did they hold up to your kind of power and (ab)use?

 

[kiwifiat]

Teslanv,

You worded the poll as if the myth regarding torque wound motors was true. Kiwifiat and Kingfish got their legs cut out from under them by the real experts, so the myth is toast. Even Madin88 has come around though he prefers to save some weight in copper outside the motor, There's no difference in torque the torque they can make, and different winds make the same heat for the same torque. A high turn count motor doesn't make you able to run a bigger wheel, or climb a mountain any better.

Not true John, the matter is still under intelligent debate in kingfish's tread. It seems that you place an incredible amount of faith in the opinion of Liveforphysics, good for you.

As a scientist I need proof and I haven't seen it yet, but will be happy to be proven wrong. That proof will need to be a bit more rigorous than "liveforphysics said so".